Passover WTF
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@Dragnslcr Are you allowed to give orders to a non-Jewish human butler?
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@Polygeekery
Given that the original implementer of the Sabbath specifically instructed the Jews to gather twice as much manna on the day before the Sabbath so they had something to eat on the Sabbath, I doubt he'd see pre-cooking or pre-programming your stove for the roast or casserole as "rules lawyering"
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@anonymous234
I think it would also require getting snipped, and I think Watson might come up a little short on the necessary hardware for that particular ritual...
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@izzion Just declare Watson a female AI. Done.
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@Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:
I would imagine no, since you're still performing an action on Shabbat that is causing electrical work.
How's a robot butler different from a shabbas goy? Technically giving a goy instruction is also causing his neurons to fire
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@Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:
Just declare Watson a female AI. Done.
Then you have to decide when the men must stay away from her.
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@another_sam Or hire all female technicians. ^_^
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@another_sam
At least you'd have a built-in excuse for times you got weird results... "Oh, Watson had blood coming from her... nose..."
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@Maciejasjmj said in Passover WTF:
Technically giving a goy instruction is also causing his neurons to fire
Since there's no way to prevent neuron activity (short of killing the person), it would be classified as not electricity anyway.
How's a robot butler different from a shabbas goy?
It might not be, but it also might be considered a servant/slave, which also aren't supposed to do any work on Shabbat. I don't know all of the requirements and restrictions regarding a Shabbas goy, and to be honest, I've never been particularly comfortable with the idea. I'm also not particularly observant, so I don't need one anyway.
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@Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:
Or hire all female technicians. ^_^
"I dont' need feminism because..."
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
@boomzilla said in Passover WTF:
@remi said in Passover WTF:
But does that also apply to rules that are actually needed to make life in society possible? Like, "thou shalt not kill"?
Given the apparent lack of such devices, I'd say that signs point to no. Perhaps this falls under "Using one's intellect to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."
Somehow, all that thinking seems like they don't really believe in their god. "There are rules, but as long as it doesn't really matter, we can play with those..." puts back a lot of human control in divine matters. Which, I'm sure, can be argued that this is God's will and so on, but still, I find that a bit too much self-referencing...
From my perspective, the problem is that the rules that they're rules lawyering are completely arbitrary anyways. No-where does the Torah say that carrying something outside your house is work, but because the rabbis have accumulated 3 millennia of life-ruining rules based on the Torah, they've also had to come up with 3 millennia of ways to ignore the rules. Or they could just throw away the pointless rules that they're not following anyways, but that's like, just my opinion.
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
One of my favourite is the fence that can be put around a village
You don't even need a fence! A bunch of poles with a wire attached to the top of them works!
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@djls45 said in Passover WTF:
I can't remember if it's this holiday or another
Now that I think about it, I think it might be at Purim(?). @Dragnslcr might know what I'm talking about.
The question that led me to learning about this Jewish holiday practice of asking silly questions to get semi-serious responses was "Would using the Force (Star Wars) break the Shabbat prohibition against doing work?"
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@djls45 said in Passover WTF:
@djls45 said in Passover WTF:
I can't remember if it's this holiday or another
Now that I think about it, I think it might be at Purim. @Dragnslcr might know what I'm talking about.
The question that led me to learning about this Jewish holiday practice of asking silly questions to get semi-serious responses was "Would using the Force (Star Wars) break the Shabbat prohibition against doing work?"
Nope, I don't know what holiday you're thinking of. Doesn't sound like Purim at all. Passover has a bit of an "asking questions" theme, but the questions are pretty scripted.
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@pydsigner said in Passover WTF:
From my perspective, the problem is that the rules that they're rules lawyering are completely arbitrary anyways. No-where does the Torah say that carrying something outside your house is work...
Not explicitly, no. If I remember correctly, not being allowed to carry things comes from the idea that anything required for building the portable sanctuary in the wilderness is prohibited on Shabbat. I'd have to dig around a bit to find exact citations.
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@Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:
@djls45 said in Passover WTF:
@djls45 said in Passover WTF:
I can't remember if it's this holiday or another
Now that I think about it, I think it might be at Purim. @Dragnslcr might know what I'm talking about.
The question that led me to learning about this Jewish holiday practice of asking silly questions to get semi-serious responses was "Would using the Force (Star Wars) break the Shabbat prohibition against doing work?"
Nope, I don't know what holiday you're thinking of. Doesn't sound like Purim at all. Passover has a bit of an "asking questions" theme, but the questions are pretty scripted.
Q: Why is this night different from all other nights?
A: https://xkcd.com/1340/
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@RaceProUK said in Passover WTF:
Many will tell you that the orange represents women and feminism.
Huh? That doesn't make sense.
They call cellulite "orange skin" in German.
However Heschel herself repudiates this myth, saying that she added the orange to honor lesbians and gay men.
That makes even less sense!
As an acknowledgement of interfaith marriages, the artichoke inclusion has been growing in popularity.
OK, now you're just making shit up for the sake of it.
Artichoke: This signifies sadness, disappointment and delay; sometimes a secret trouble is indicated by this symbol
Someone got trolled by the orthodox.
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@Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:
Since there's no way to prevent neuron activity (short of killing the person), it would be classified as not electricity anyway.
So how about if the robot butler is already on at the start of Shabbat (not necessarily turned on purposefully for Shabbat mind you, since you can use a robot butler during the rest of the week), such that you can't switch it off, and is designed in such a way that its circuits are doing stuff even when it's idling - like listening for commands or just doing some kind of busy-work?
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@Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:
@djls45 said in Passover WTF:
@djls45 said in Passover WTF:
I can't remember if it's this holiday or another
Now that I think about it, I think it might be at Purim. @Dragnslcr might know what I'm talking about.
The question that led me to learning about this Jewish holiday practice of asking silly questions to get semi-serious responses was "Would using the Force (Star Wars) break the Shabbat prohibition against doing work?"
Nope, I don't know what holiday you're thinking of. Doesn't sound like Purim at all. Passover has a bit of an "asking questions" theme, but the questions are pretty scripted.
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@CarrieVS said in Passover WTF:
@Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:
Since there's no way to prevent neuron activity (short of killing the person), it would be classified as not electricity anyway.
So how about if the robot butler is already on at the start of Shabbat (not necessarily turned on purposefully for Shabbat mind you, since you can use a robot butler during the rest of the week), such that you can't switch it off, and is designed in such a way that its circuits are doing stuff even when it's idling - like listening for commands or just doing some kind of busy-work?
If you can't switch it off and it has enough of an AI that it will do things for you without your explicitly telling it to, then at that point you effectively have a person. My guess is that it would either be simply treated as a person, or most Orthodox Jews would refuse to own a robot like that if it didn't have some kind of Shabbat mode. If owning a robot like that becomes a normal thing in the future (e.g. The Jetsons), then the laws will probably shift towards treating them as people.
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@Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:
If you can't switch it off and it has enough of an AI that it will do things for you without your explicitly telling it to, then at that point you effectively have a person.
No, that wasn't what I meant. I meant if you have to tell it to do things but its idle behaviour is such that circuits are doing stuff whether or not it's following your instructions, can you tell it to do stuff on Shabbat?
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@CarrieVS said in Passover WTF:
@Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:
If you can't switch it off and it has enough of an AI that it will do things for you without your explicitly telling it to, then at that point you effectively have a person.
No, that wasn't what I meant. I meant if you have to tell it to do things but its idle behaviour is such that circuits are doing stuff whether or not it's following your instructions, can you tell it to do stuff on Shabbat?
I would assume no, but I'm by no means a rabbinic authority. Like I said, though, it could reach the point where the robot is effectively a person, in which case it may be treated as a person instead of a machine.
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@Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:
@ben_lubar said in Passover WTF:
do vegans not allow any part of an animal at their dinners?
Often, vegans don't allow animal products in their homes, because the goal is to reduce animal death and discomfort. You've never heard of vegans who don't wear leather?
They need to acknowledge their modern society privilege.
Cotton wasn't available everywhere.
Oh, and don't use an ox to plow your land.
I'd find it hard to believe there are as many products that haven't been impacted by an animal at some point.
And they seem perfectly fine exploiting human labor.
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
@Dragnslcr Are you allowed to give orders to a non-Jewish human butler?
I suspect not. From Exodus chapter 20 in The Torah as represented on Google Books (emphasis added):
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all they work; 10 but the seventh is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;
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@abarker Additionally reading wikipedia, the archetypical golem story had the golem not allowed to work on the Sabbath either as a plot point.
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@xaade said in Passover WTF:
They need to acknowledge their modern society privilege.
Cotton wasn't available everywhere.There are many different plants used for fabric around the world. Cotton is just one of the easiest to work with. Linen is a different one (made from flax IIRC) and very nice it is too. Comparatively expensive. I know for sure that other plants are used as well, but less commonly.
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@xaade said in Passover WTF:
Oh, and don't use an ox to plow your land.
Some vegans don't like to use the fruit of animals' labour, some just don't want to use products directly from them
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@Jaloopa said in Passover WTF:
Some vegans don't like to use the fruit of animals' labour
Can they then eat plants fertilized by insects (i.e. almost all cereals and fruits, AFAIK)?
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
@Jaloopa said in Passover WTF:
Some vegans don't like to use the fruit of animals' labour
Can they then eat plants fertilized by insects (i.e. almost all cereals and fruits, AFAIK)?
I might argue* that the "fruit" of the insects' labour there is the nectar they gather from the flowers (and in the case of bees the honey they produce from it) and the actual pollination is, from the insect's perspective, a by-product.
But it's not a terribly strong argument; the plants have evolved to exploit the insects and provide them with the minimum amount of reward necessary for maximum chances of pollination, and we in turn exploit that.
*Not that I'm a vegan.
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@CarrieVS Given that this started from someone talking about "don't use an ox to plow your land", I'd say the bees and flowers (
, of course) is the same thing.(you could also add wine & beer to the list, depending on whether you consider yeast to be animals or not -- I'd say they're probably mushrooms, which opens the door to something new: vegans don't want "animal" stuff, how do you call someone who doesn't want "mushroom" stuff?)
Anyway, I don't know any vegans, much less any vegans with such extreme opinions, so it looks like we're mostly building a nice straw man here.
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
Anyway, I don't know any vegans, much less any vegans with such extreme opinions, so it looks like we're mostly building a nice straw man here.
Then they should say, sufficiently advanced animals, meaning the animals they actually care about. Which makes them no different from me, who cares about fewer species in this manner.
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@xaade So, at which point do you set the "sufficiently advanced" limit? Are all humans above it, or do you distinguish between SJW, democrats, republicans etc.?
(inb4
about them not being different "species", have you seen viable offspring from crosses between these categories?)
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
It's almost as if, somehow, getting around the intent of the law while respecting the letter is something that God wants you to do??
That's an observation of that's been around a long time. If you look at the Gospels, one of Jesus's biggest complaints against the rabbis of 2000 years ago is that all their rules lawyering was perverting what should have been the worship of God into the worship of God's law.
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@masonwheeler said in Passover WTF:
what should have been the worship of God into the worship of God's law.
Disagree.
Jesus said in Mark 7:
laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men
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@pydsigner said in Passover WTF:
@masonwheeler said in Passover WTF:
what should have been the worship of God into the worship of God's law.
Disagree.
Jesus said in Mark 7:
laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men
@masonwheeler may be right, at least partly.
Many of their traditional rules appear to have started as, "Well, this is what the Law says, and we don't want to risk breaking that, so we'll follow this slightly stricture rule instead." (Mind you, not all of their laws can be explained this way, but many can.) For example, you will find nothing in the Torah that forbids mixing meat and dairy. The closest you will get is Exodus 23:19, where it specifies that a kid (young goat) shall not be cooked in its mother's milk. It is likely that some Jews worried that they didn't know if the milk they purchased came from the mother of the kid they purchased, so they cooked the two separately to be safe. Over time, they just cooked all meat and dairy separately, and now the most Orthodox Jews will have separate kitchens for preparing dairy and meat.
Now, off the top of my head, I have a couple different ideas about why this may have happened. First, many of the laws given to the Jews had a death penalty for crossing them, so obviously you'd really want to make sure you avoided those ones. Then there's the whole "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" thing, which you'd understandably want to avoid. And even the ones that you only had to perform sacrifices to absolve yourself of could potentially get expensive. So it made sense to build an extra set of "safety rules" to ensure you didn't need to worry about the consequences of the actual Law. The second idea is that the Jews were, to a degree, worshipping the Law. The Law needed to be protected, so they set up safeguards around it to protect its sanctity.
Of course, there's no reason that both explanations couldn't be true, at least to some degree.
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@abarker said in Passover WTF:
The second idea is that the Jews were, to a degree, worshipping the Law.
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
how do you call someone who doesn't want "mushroom" stuff?
Sensible. Mushrooms are horrible
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@remi Oh, stuff made from mushroom type things? Yeah, that's fine. I just don't trust anyone who actually enjoys eating the nasty slimy things
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@RaceProUK said in Passover WTF:
@accalia Tastes like soap? I thought that was coriand- Oh, cilantro is coriander.
In the US, it's known by both names: the leaves are usually called cilantro and the seeds (which don't taste soapy like the leaves, BTW) are usually called coriander.
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@remi said in Passover WTF:
@boomzilla Still, that seems to me a bit fishy, morally speaking.
I can understand how that works for arcane rules with no real grounding in real life (such as the various shabbat preventions that are intended to help oneself focus on religious thoughts for a day, but it doesn't really matter whether someone does it or not). But does that also apply to rules that are actually needed to make life in society possible? Like, "thou shalt not kill"?
If you are smart enough to set up a trap that kills someone but with some random delayed action switch that works around the direct action thing (like for the light switch -- I should dig for the link, that was a fun one), does that mean you are OK because you didn't kill (in the same way as you didn't switch on the light) and thus obeyed God commands?
Why dig that far for an example? Strap them in the chair and use a Kosher switch. It's been firmly established that the Kosher switch removes any responsibility for controlling the electricity that may or may not flow (randomly); if they're electrocuted, it's not your fault... despite the fact that you intentionally set up the chain of events which resulted in the electricity flowing, you bear no responsibility for actually turning it on.
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@Jaloopa said in Passover WTF:
@remi Oh, stuff made from mushroom type things? Yeah, that's fine. I just don't trust anyone who actually enjoys eating the nasty slimy things
If your mushrooms are slimy, that's your problem right there: they aren't fresh and have started to rot. They're not supposed to be that way!
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@masonwheeler Cheese, on the other hand, is.
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@masonwheeler said in Passover WTF:
your mushrooms [...] have started to rot.
Yo dog, I heard you liked mushrooms on your mushrooms...
We need to go deeper!
I know, rot != mold, but the joke was too easy to pass...
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@Yamikuronue what do you have against cheese? It's yummy!
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@masonwheeler It's disgusting >.>
Purim Torah - Wikipedia
