YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint)
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@El_Heffe said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@LaoC said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
It's totally beyond me why any regular software (i.e. not something like Process Explorer or other low-level system stuff) would even need to find out what version it's on.
Because Windows version N is significantly different from version N+3 and version N-3. Because a lot of programs are shit and do things that only work purely by coincidence because of (or in spite of) some bug or quirk in Windows. Until Microsoft fixes it.
The issue I find is mostly programs that rely on the undocumented features of Windows, including quirks and bugs. The whole reason those undocumented things are undocumented is because they can change between Windows versions, and relying on them is like relying on a climbing harness made of liquorice. Sure, you can build one, but it will break.
The lesson: stick with documented features. Why? Because they're documented.
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@RaceProUK said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
The lesson: stick with documented features. Why? Because they're documented
Most programs that rely on undocumented features probably aren't setting out to do so. I imagine it's mostly a matter of "How do I do this? Well, this seems to work", possibly compounded by a later "Oh, someone on Stack Overflow is asking how to do it. I'll share what I did that worked"
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@Jaloopa And that only serves to feed the problem. It's a kinda snowball effect.
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@RaceProUK said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
The issue I find is mostly programs that rely on the undocumented features of Windows, including quirks and bugs. The whole reason those undocumented things are undocumented is because they can change between Windows versions, and relying on them is like relying on a climbing harness made of liquorice. Sure, you can build one, but it will break.
The lesson: stick with documented features. Why? Because they're documented.Here's another lesson: people don't give a fuck about doing things the right way. They want things to be done ASAP and then forget about it. This happens in all industries. Just look at all the shoddy construction work in unregulated countries.
The solutions?
- Make mandatory codes and regulations. Hire inspectors to verify the work and fine violators (ha).
- Make optional codes and regulations, plus companies to certify if a product follows them and stamp their "seal of approval". Hope that customers will care about it (they won't).
- Make undefined behavior impossible to begin with. This means removing all the semantic aspects of APIs (i.e. "this function might do this or that depending on the system") and instead making them more like virtual machines that will always do the exact same thing (for a certain API version). Sadly (from what I know) the Windows API is as far from this as you can get.
- Break bad code as often as possible so people will care. For example, make several versions of a function that are as different from each other as possible while still valid, or add explicit checking code that throws an error if you do anything wrong. You can just run it once every 1000 calls or so for efficiency.
- Accept it, and maintain thousands of compatibility shims forever.
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@El_Heffe said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
A few years ago, a friend of mine asked if I could take a look at his son's computer that wasn't working properly. (His son is an adult). I figured, worst case scenario, I wipe the hard drive and re-install Windows 7 (the newest version of Windows, at that time) along with the latest versions of whatever other programs I had.
The computer was running Windows 98.
I don't understand the point of this story.
Posted from my Windows 7 machine.
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@anonymous234 said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Make mandatory codes and regulations. Hire inspectors to verify the work and fine violators (ha).
Works for the construction industry, among others.
@anonymous234 said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Make undefined behavior impossible to begin with. This means removing all the semantic aspects of APIs (i.e. "this function might do this or that depending on the system") and instead making them more like virtual machines that will always do the exact same thing (for a certain API version). Sadly (from what I know) the Windows API is as far from this as you can get.
I find a lot of APIs are far from this ideal, not just Win32.
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@anonymous234 said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Break bad code as often as possible so people will
carenever upgrade to the new version of your API where you fixed that glaring security hole
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@Zecc said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@El_Heffe said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
A few years ago, a friend of mine asked if I could take a look at his son's computer that wasn't working properly. (His son is an adult). I figured, worst case scenario, I wipe the hard drive and re-install Windows 7 (the newest version of Windows, at that time) along with the latest versions of whatever other programs I had.
The computer was running Windows 98.
I don't understand the point of this story.
It was a response to:
It's totally beyond me why any regular software (i.e. not something like Process Explorer or other low-level system stuff) would even need to find out what version it's on.
My point being that Windows 7 is so significantly different from Windows 98 that most software which runs on one probably won't run on the other.
Which also happens to be one of the reasons why there is no Windows 9 - the fear that various shit software would get confused by a version number of 9 and think it was running on Windows 95 or 98.
And of course the whole absurdity of Windows version numbers, all because of programs which are hard-coded to look for version N and freak out if they encounter a higher number.
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@El_Heffe said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
And of course the whole absurdity of Windows version numbers, all because of programs which are hard-coded to look for version N and freak out if they encounter a higher number.
It's OK, we'll make the function return
Windows 95 98 NT 4.0 2000 XP Vista 7 8 Server Pro POSIX compatible OSX Debian Ubuntu Slackware (Linux, like UNIX)/10.1 (WOW64)
so all programs can find their favorite version there.
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@anonymous234 said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
It's OK, we'll make the function return
Windows 95 98 NT 4.0 2000 XP Vista 7 8 Server Pro POSIX compatible OSX Debian Ubuntu Slackware (Linux, like UNIX)/10.1 (WOW64)
so all programs can find their favorite version there.You forgot
EMACS
!!!1
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@El_Heffe said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Way back in the old days, when you had to crank your wooden hard drive by hand, it occurred to me that I should make a backup copy of my files, "just in case". Nobody told me to do this, it just seemed like common sense. Sort of like keeping important papers in a safe or metal box, in case there's a fire.
Instead, we now have people who have never lived in a time where powerful PCs didn't exist, and yet they are more computer-illiterate than ever.I'm not certain exactly how far back you're thinking of, but I'm betting that when you had to crank your wooden hard-drive by hand, your computer was a machine, and you had to at least kind-of understand it to be able to use it. Common sense applies to machines, including the common sense to realise that they are fallible.
Now, computers can do all kinds of astonishing things and are usable by people with no understanding whatsoever of how they work. They are sufficiently advanced technology: to the average user these days, computers are magic boxes, and common sense does not apply to magic.
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@CarrieVS said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
common sense does not apply to magic
despite the best efforts of Terry Pratchett to convince the world otherwise.
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@Jaloopa said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@RaceProUK said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
The lesson: stick with documented features. Why? Because they're documented
Most programs that rely on undocumented features probably aren't setting out to do so. I imagine it's mostly a matter of "How do I do this? Well, this seems to work", possibly compounded by a later "Oh, someone on Stack Overflow is asking how to do it. I'll share what I did that worked"
You're absolutely right. And still, the last time I said "look at the documentation before you use a function" I was told by multiple forum members that this is unrealistic and stupid. No wonder that software is so shitty when developers are opposed to the idea of reading documentation before writing code that uses an unknown API.
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@flabdablet I'm sure the denizens of the HEM back up their ant colony regularly. Or is the beehive? Yes, they probably just have to back up the honeycombs.
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@asdf This is why I often mourn the death of IDEs. The ability to easily access the documentation for functions while writing code is paramount in today's world.
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@anonymous234 said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Here's another lesson: people don't give a fuck about doing things the right way.
QFT.
I'd say that the best solution would be legislation, not regulation: Make software vendors fully liable for failures caused by negligent behavior, such as lack of testing. The problem will magically solve itself.
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@asdf said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Make software vendors fully liable for failures caused by negligent behavior, such as lack of testing.
Now I'm having dystopian flashes of a vast array of battery cages, each one containing a rabbit having a new Windows 10 UI dripped in its eyes.
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@Yamikuronue said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Wait what? Why? Does she think her old data will be on a new hard drive?
Simple explanation: this was the solution given by Geek Squad.
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@marczellm said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
I simply don't believe that it has installed on anyone's machine without consent.
Think again
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@CarrieVS said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
They are sufficiently advanced technology: to the average user these days, computers are magic boxes, and common sense does not apply to magic.
They are not magic boxes, they are glorified calculators
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@asdf said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Make software vendors fully liable for failures caused by negligent behavior, such as lack of testing. The problem will magically solve itself.
Yes, Micro-Soft (and Oracle, Adobe, etc) would go bankrupt pretty quickly !
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@flabdablet said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Make software vendors fully liable for failures caused by negligent behavior, such as lack of testing.
Now I'm having dystopian flashes of a vast array of battery cages, each one containing a rabbit having a new Windows 10 UI dripped in its eyes.
It's probably been posted a million times but it's just too good:
https://youtu.be/Y9ttBt-4vWo
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@asdf said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Make software vendors fully liable for failures caused by negligent behavior, such as lack of testing.
Would this effectively kill open source? Asking for a friend
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@asdf said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
the last time I said "look at the documentation before you use a function" I was told by multiple forum members that this is unrealistic and stupid.
Name and shame.
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@Zecc said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Name and shame.
Hint: He's your alt. And mine.
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@Jaloopa said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Would this effectively kill open source?
Not necessarily. There are a few open source projects out there who take testing and following proper procedures (reviews etc.) seriously.
It would certainly increase the workload of all badly-managed software projects, open-source or commercial, but it's not a bad thing to force people to take their job/responsibilities seriously, is it?
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@LaoC Heh.
"Prof. Leopold Von Sächer Masoch - Microsoft Scientific Programmes" was a nice touch.
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@Yamikuronue said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
This is why I often mourn the death of IDEs.
IDEs are still going strong; Visual Studio just had a new major release
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@asdf said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
There are a few open source projects out there who take testing and following proper procedures (reviews etc.) seriously.
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@TimeBandit said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@marczellm said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
I simply don't believe that it has installed on anyone's machine without consent.
Think again
- Why does that site reload itself every minute?
- That's still consent. "Won't read this dialog, I want it to go away, click"
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@marczellm said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
That's still consent. "Won't read this dialog, I want it to go away, click"
Of course, since clicking the X is the equivalent of "Yes, I agree"
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@RaceProUK Obscure Japanese games, like Komajou Densetsu II seem to vary a lot between 7, 8, 8.1, and 10. I think it's back to working again, but I'm not sure. Then too, the game (Hisoutensoku) whose mechanics inspired my game seems to sometimes have compatibility issues (all the more reason for me to make my game).
In general, though, it's been rather consistent.
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@anonymous234 said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
I really don't see the installer deleting anything in "my documents" or the desktop, or any other place outside C:/Windows.
I panicked a bit when I got this message:
Like...was there some other optionâ˝
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@boomzilla said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
was there some other optionâ˝
Just you wait for Windows 10 2019 (Rapture Edition).
All your files have been safely moved into the cloud
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@Zecc said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@El_Heffe said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
A few years ago, a friend of mine asked if I could take a look at his son's computer that wasn't working properly. (His son is an adult). I figured, worst case scenario, I wipe the hard drive and re-install Windows 7 (the newest version of Windows, at that time) along with the latest versions of whatever other programs I had.
The computer was running Windows 98.
I don't understand the point of this story.
It was just a lead in about how the murders began.
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@asdf said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
You're absolutely right. And still, the last time I said "look at the documentation before you use a function" I was told by multiple forum members that this is unrealistic and stupid. No wonder that software is so shitty when developers are opposed to the idea of reading documentation before writing code that uses an unknown API.
That's not what you were told.
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@marczellm
Did you miss this part?
" if the pop up appears while youâre away from your computerâyour system will automatically begin the process at the scheduled time. In other words, your PC can potentially upgrade to Windows 10 without you asking it to or explicitly approving the upgrade."
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@boomzilla said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Like...was there some other optionâ˝
I know I was like "They'd better be!"
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@anonymous234 said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Break bad code as often as possible so people will care.
That causes most people to put the blame on the wrong party, though: âThis program Iâve been using doesnât work anymore now that I updated Windows. Microsoft sucks.â (Solution: have the OS pop up a notice that the app canât run under the present OS version and that the user should pester the appâs maker to improve it. Result: users click away the warning and blame the OS vendor anyway.)
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@boomzilla said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
I panicked a bit when I got this message:
Like...was there some other optionâ˝
My guess is theyâve anticipated the habit of the typical Windows user (in my experience, anyway) of doing a clean install every time they update their OS. Only problem is that if youâre that kind of Windows user, youâll only see that message when youâre finishing a clean install.
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@Gurth said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
My guess is theyâve anticipated the habit of the typical Windows user (in my experience, anyway) of doing a clean install every time they update their OS.
I don't think this even happened on the big upgrade. I think it was on an update after that.
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@boomzilla It keeps happening on big enough windows updates
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@flabdablet said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@boomzilla said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
was there some other optionâ˝
Just you wait for Windows 10 2019 (Rapture Edition).
All your files have been safely moved into the cloud
And since it exceeds OneDrive's quota, you must upgrade to OneDrive Premium in order to access your files.
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@flabdablet said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@LaoC Heh.
"Prof. Leopold Von Sächer Masoch - Microsoft Scientific Programmes" was a nice touch.
Looking good ... unfortunately "worldwide" as in "BBC Worldwide" seems to include neither Laos nor Poland, so the still is all they let me see
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@LaoC said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@Tsaukpaetra said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Apparently there is a 32-bit version that does include 16-bit support though.
Yeah, Windows XP Mode, which is really just Windows XP in a VM.
I fail to see how that applies. Also, Windows 10 32-bit (actually, Windows 8.1-and-up 32-bit) requires PAE and NX-Bit for who-knows why.
You know, because relevance?
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@marczellm said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@TimeBandit said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
@marczellm said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
I simply don't believe that it has installed on anyone's machine without consent.
Think again
- Why does that site reload itself every minute?
- That's still consent. "Won't read this dialog, I want it to go away, click"
Something something rape culture?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
I fail to see how that applies. Also, Windows 10 32-bit (actually, Windows 8.1-and-up 32-bit) requires PAE and NX-Bit for who-knows why.
Wait... 32-bit Windows requires PAE now? And they STILL haven't sorted addressing more than 4GB of memory?
Microsoft Technical Fellow Mark Russinovich says that some drivers were found to be unstable when encountering physical addresses above 4 GB.
Ah, so it's because of shitty drivers. And instead of enforcing the use of non-shitty drivers they limit Windows so driver makers can keep on making shitty drivers. Got it.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
NX-Bit
I believe in Windows land, that's called DEP, and it's kinda useful for security reasons.
@Tsaukpaetra said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Windows 10 32-bit (actually, Windows 8.1-and-up 32-bit) requires PAE
Really? When has this been a requirement? The only Windows thing I know of that makes use of PAE is SQL Server, and even then, you have to explicitly enable it.
@Atazhaia said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
And instead of enforcing the use of non-shitty drivers they limit Windows so driver makers can keep on making shitty drivers.
The 32-bit address space is limited to 4GB because that's as much as 32 bits can address without something like PAE.
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@RaceProUK Well, if Windows requires and uses PAE they should also logically be able to increase the amount of addressable memory. Or so one would think at least, as other major OSes can do it without issues.
Fun fact, I've managed to have enough address-hungry hardware in a computer to drop below 3GB of usable RAM on 32-bit Windows. And then I had bought only 3GB for the purpose of not having any wasted RAM.
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@Atazhaia said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Windows requires and uses PAE
As far as I'm aware, Windows itself does not require PAE.
@Atazhaia said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
they should also logically be able to increase the amount of addressable memory
That's what PAE does.
@Atazhaia said in YAWTC (Yet Another Windows Ten Complaint):
Or so one would think at least, as other major OSes can do it without issues.
Either by using something like PAE, or moving to a larger address space (for which they use a 64-bit kernel).