A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted
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@boomzilla said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
BAD IDEAS is
Uh... The phone number on the top of that page changes on load...
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@dcoder
Don't worry, it's just a phase of the moon...
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@boomzilla said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
BAD IDEAS is
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/cryptocurrency-crash-sees-suicide-hotline-151218732.html
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@dcoder How come so many people who post screenshots of their phones as memes have super-low battery life? 3%? Jesus, man, plug in!
Just a trend I've noticed.
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@sloosecannon said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@boomzilla said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
BAD IDEAS is
Uh... The phone number on the top of that page changes on load...
I thought I was just seeing things!
I got 866 873 1445 before it changes.
Filed under: Too used to Talos Principle glitches...
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Earlier this week there was a newspaper article warning people with high cryptocurrency ownings for taxes.
If you owned 100k€ in bitcoin at the new year, you will have to pay 1.2k€ in tax for it next year. Even if the bitcoin is worth only cents by then.
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
Earlier this week there was a newspaper article warning people with high cryptocurrency ownings for taxes.
If you owned 100k€ in bitcoin at the new year, you will have to pay 1.2k€ in tax for it next year. Even if the bitcoin is worth only cents by then.
How does the government know what you're holding though? Do they require you to give them your wallet address?
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@jbert You're required to state your ownings. If you lie, that's tax fraud, and there's a risk they'll find out eventually, and you'll have to then pay the back taxes, the fine, and the legal interest rate.
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
If you owned 100k€ in bitcoin at the new year, you will have to pay 1.2k€ in tax for it next year. Even if the bitcoin is worth only cents by then.
Wow. Do you guys get taxed on all asset holdings?
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@dcoder they are idiots, but it is still sad :-(
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@boomzilla Certain things are exempt, including your first house, cash and stock holdings up to 30k (corrected for inflation every year), and probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
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@pleegwat Wow.
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@sloosecannon said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
Uh... The phone number on the top of that page changes on load...
@tsaukpaetra said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
I thought I was just seeing things!
I got 866 873 1445 before it changes.
Filed under: Too used to Talos Principle glitches...
Looks like they're using a company called DialogTech, though Google and Invoca also offer the service. That phone number is temporarily reserved just for you, and it means if you call them and buy something (or whatever they define as "conversion"), they can tie that back to the website click and know that their biggest source of buyers wasn't any of their ads or anyone searching on Google but "referral traffic from TheDailyWTF.com". Which will lead to them trying to spam here.
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@boomzilla said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
Do you guys get taxed on all asset holdings?
For us, we're taxed on income from non-cash assets, but not the assets themselves while they're held (there's capital gains taxes when the assets are sold). There's also an exemption for pensions and main home (but only if one is tax-resident). For most things as long as you're income is relatively normal, you can have everything looked after for you by your bank; the hassle from the taxman is pretty minimal until you have significant assets (like half a million bucks or so, excluding pensions and home).
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@twelvebaud
At least that's slightly less cancer than Constant Contact's outbound caller ID spoofing.But good Lord. I want the good old days back when one company had one phone number and that was that :walker: :cane:
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@boomzilla Certain things are exempt, including your first house, cash and stock holdings up to 30k (corrected for inflation every year), and probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
The reason @boomzilla is wowing is because in the US, you're usually not taxed on the raw value of the asset, but instead on the appreciation when you sell it ("capital gains"), and if it's depreciated instead ("capital losses"), you can usually just deduct those losses from any gains you might have. The tax rate is 22-32% rather than 1.2%, but it only applies on money you accrue, rather than money you have; once you have it, it's yours.
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@dkf said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
For us, we're taxed on income from non-cash assets, but not the assets themselves while they're held (there's capital gains taxes when the assets are sold).
Yeah, we get taxed on capital gains and other income (interest, dividends, etc). At state (and lower) levels we pay property taxes on real estate and sometimes vehicles. But I've never heard of a tax on financial sorts of assets that are just being held. That's...kind of scary, actually.
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The thing that surprises me about these guys losing huge amounts of money is, how did they ever get to have $80000 or $500000 when you're so bad at money? Ok, one of the guys said he took a loan, so he's hurting a bank too. And the unemployed guy gambled his wife's money, so I guess that's how they get access to money. They betray other people's trust.
Unless that suicide hotline is giving them instructions, they're doing it wrong.
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@boomzilla said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
If you owned 100k€ in bitcoin at the new year, you will have to pay 1.2k€ in tax for it next year. Even if the bitcoin is worth only cents by then.
Wow. Do you guys get taxed on all asset holdings?
Depends on the countries, I'm not sure where @PleegWat is.
In France until this year, assets above 1.3M EUR were taxed, excluding 30% of main residence and basically everything invested in a business. It targeted less than 350k tax payers, out of a total of more than 35M, so we are quite literally talking about the 1% here. The average amount per tax payer was about 15 kEUR, so considering the estates in question (and what's excluded from them!), not really enough to make a dent.
A reform from Macron last year changed that to include only real estate (excluding those for professional use) in the taxation basis. So it will not only reduce a lot the number of tax payers (the official estimate is about 150k), but also the amount they pay (about 10 kEUR average).
So yeah, there is some form of asset tax, but it's mostly a political marker that every government tweaks one way or the other, not a real revenue source or something that really hurts tax payers.
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More ways to lose your fake money
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@remi said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
I'm not sure where @PleegWat is.
The Netherlands
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@kian ITYM:
Ok, one of the guys said he took a loan, so he's
hurtingsoon getting shafted by a bank too.
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@remi said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@kian ITYM:
Ok, one of the guys said he took a loan, so he's
hurtingsoon getting shafted by a bank too.No, it's almost certain that the bank will get the shaft when he declares bankruptcy. And while the bank was probably dumb to make the loan the dude deserves all of the resulting pain from his scheming (though his wife and kids may not).
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@boomzilla said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@dkf said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
For us, we're taxed on income from non-cash assets, but not the assets themselves while they're held (there's capital gains taxes when the assets are sold).
Yeah, we get taxed on capital gains and other income (interest, dividends, etc). At state (and lower) levels we pay property taxes on real estate and sometimes vehicles. But I've never heard of a tax on financial sorts of assets that are just being held. That's...kind of scary, actually.
I think they used to do that here, but tracking actual profits was too much paperwork, so they instead use a fictional 4% profit, over which you pay 30% tax. There's some rumbling about changing it, since back when they established it 4% was a reasonable interest on a savings account.
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@dkf said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
the hassle from the taxman is pretty minimal until you have significant assets (like half a million bucks or so
This sentence boggles my mind. I realize you probably don't mean it from any sort of "class envy" perspective or anything, but that our culture has internalized such a definition of "the rich guy who deserves to be soaked" is downright frightening to me. Because...
Math quiz!
You're a recently out of college IT worker, early 30s, about to finally pay off your student loans. You've heard about this wonderful retirement thing, figure it's probably something worth saving up for. So now that you won't have those loans to pay off, you figure that you can save 4% of your $80k annual income, and get that sweet sweet 1% additional matching retirement funds from your boss (so the total contribution is $4k per year). Your mama didn't raise no dummy, so you're not gonna chase any Ponzi schemes looking for big returns, just dump it in an S&P 500 index fund that averages 8% annual returns after all your retirement fund management fees and what not. Each year you get a 3% raise, and you increase your retirement contributions accordingly.
In what year will just your retirement fund have "significant assets", as defined by the $500,000 threshold above? (And that's before counting your house, your rainy day fund, your car, or any other typical assets).
The answer below,
You'd hit $500k in the retirement fund by the year 2045, just a few years ahead of your big retirement party. That year you'd have earned ~$37,000 in investment returns, and be contributing just shy of $8,900 of your $177,700 annual income to the fund.be sure to like and subscribe
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@izzion All that is true if you ignore the earlier caveat:
There's also an exemption for pensions and main home
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@jaloopa
Depending on how that(if you're tax resident)
clause applies - I read it as if you're living somewhere else but a citizen of dkfland, then dkfland gets a cut of your pension funds too.And my point was more about how easy it is to accumulate $500k worth of assets (even if you were to go from your parents' start of career to now, rather than forward looking from here), if you are fiscally responsible with your life. For that matter, it doesn't take very much fiddling with the assumptions of my example to come up with $1M in assets. And yet our culture thinks of those people as "super rich", and as tax mules that haven't been paying their fair share. No wonder we all live hand to mouth
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@izzion While I agree with what you said, note that most countries that I know of explicitly exclude retirement funds from what's really considered as your "assets" (at least as far as any kind of taxation is concerned). In part to encourage people to actually save for their retirement, but also because most people don't really consider a retirement fund as an asset (as in, a lump sum of money) but more as future income (the draw-down that you'll get once you retire).
Also and unrelated:
Each year you get a 3% raise
Interestingly, while this makes for nice big numbers, this actually basically only covers inflation. Which is what actual numbers indicate, since 60yo have a median income that is about 1.5x that of 25yo, meaning just about 1%/year above inflation (since the salary of those 60yo rose not from the current salary of a 25yo but from what it was 40 years ago). So it's not the huge increase that it sounds like...
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@boomzilla said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
But I've never heard of a tax on financial sorts of assets that are just being held.
I got hit by one of those from Pennsylvania. They started cross-correlating with income tax paid on dividends and sent out a bunch of letters.
The resulting outcry got the tax repealed shortly after.
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@twelvebaud said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
That phone number is temporarily reserved just for you, and it means if you call them and buy something (or whatever they define as "conversion"), they can tie that back to the website click and know that their biggest source of buyers wasn't any of their ads or anyone searching on Google but "referral traffic from TheDailyWTF.com". Which will lead to them trying to spam here.
Kinda wanna mess with the referral header now and see what numbers I can get it to cough up...
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@boomzilla Certain things are exempt, including your first house, cash and stock holdings up to 30k (corrected for inflation every year), and probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
But are you taxed on the asset's value, or on its gain in value?
In the US you're not taxed on unrealized gains, i.e. gain in value of an asset that you're holding. You're only taxed on realized gains; cash dividends would be taxable income, as would the profit from sale of an asset (sale price, minus the cost basis, which is whatever you originally invested to purchase the asset). Gain or loss from every asset you sold is added together and you're taxed on the net gain; if there was a net loss, you may be allowed to deduct some of the loss and/or carry the loss forward into subsequent tax years to count against future gains.
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@pleegwat I was going to
BITCHcomplain about it being in Dutch, but Chrome helpfully prompted me to have it translated into English.So... it sounds like profit is taxed, based on the actual value (on the first of January) -- including unrealized gains, which would not be taxed on the US. Does that sound correct from your reading of it also?
How about losses, do you get to deduct those? Because if so, everyone who ostensibly owed tax on Bitcoin profits from the past year will be reporting rather significant losses next year...
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@izzion said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@dkf said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
the hassle from the taxman is pretty minimal until you have significant assets (like half a million bucks or so
This sentence boggles my mind. I realize you probably don't mean it from any sort of "class envy" perspective or anything, but that our culture has internalized such a definition of "the rich guy who deserves to be soaked" is downright frightening to me. Because...
Math quiz!
You're a recently out of college IT worker, early 30s, about to finally pay off your student loans.
We also usually don't have five- or six figure student loans.
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@anotherusername No. They pre-determine the gains to be 4%, regardless of what your actual gains or losses are.
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@izzion said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
I want the good old days back when one company had one phone number
I don't think we even have one. We have cellphones. Our cell phones. Well, you can get a company issued one, but why the hell would I want 2? Thankfully, as a dev, I don't have to give my number out.
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@anotherusername No. They pre-determine the gains to be 4%, regardless of what your actual gains or losses are.
That's fucking idiotic.
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@anotherusername Yes.
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
Earlier this week there was a newspaper article warning people with high cryptocurrency ownings for taxes.
If you owned 100k€ in bitcoin at the new year, you will have to pay 1.2k€ in tax for it next year.You get taxed on holdings? How the hell does the UK have so much passed-down generational wealth then?
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@izzion said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@dkf said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
the hassle from the taxman is pretty minimal until you have significant assets (like half a million bucks or so
This sentence boggles my mind. I realize you probably don't mean it from any sort of "class envy" perspective or anything, but that our culture has internalized such a definition of "the rich guy who deserves to be soaked" is downright frightening to me. Because...
Seriously. Like as you get close to retirement! (I now have about 600K in my 401/IRA) To say nothing about my house that is worth about 1.2M and is almost paid off.
edit: Ah, that makes it a little better - assuming pension also means IRAs...
@jaloopa said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@izzion All that is true if you ignore the earlier caveat:
There's also an exemption for pensions and main home
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@jaloopa said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
There's also an exemption for pensions and main home
In the US, pensions and retirement accounts (401k, IRA, etc.) are different things. That might be the confusion here.
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@boomzilla Certain things are exempt, including your first house, cash and stock holdings up to 30k (corrected for inflation every year), and probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
That's just...wrong. We get taxed when it actually becomes income. Why do they tax you for investing? You would think they would want to encourage such behavior.
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@kian said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
The thing that surprises me about these guys losing huge amounts of money is, how did they ever get to have $80000 or $500000 when you're so bad at money? Ok, one of the guys said he took a loan, so he's hurting a bank too. And the unemployed guy gambled his wife's money, so I guess that's how they get access to money. They betray other people's trust.
Unless that suicide hotline is giving them instructions, they're doing it wrong.
Sometimes people are able to outearn their own stupidity. Also, if you buy property in California their frequent bubbles could easily get you that much equity on a long enough timeline (not as long as you think). Also, since Bitcoin was $0.08 in 2010 and nearly hit $20K per a few weeks ago you could have invested $2 in Bitcoin in 2010 and had $500K (in theory, if you could convert it and get it out of Bitcoin).
But yeah, still doing it wrong.
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@izzion said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
Each year you get a 3% raise
Wow, what world are you living in, where this is a thing? I've generally gotten raises between 0% and 0.3% throughout my career; increasing salary comes by finding a new job that pays more.
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@anotherusername said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
cash dividends would be taxable income
It used to be that you could get around that by putting that dividend in a DRIP, but they closed that incentive. Fucking assholes. DRIPs used to be good investment tools until they gutted them.
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@pleegwat said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@anotherusername No. They pre-determine the gains to be 4%, regardless of what your actual gains or losses are.
Well...that's just wrong. Do they do anything in years like 2008-2009?
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That statistic is just monumentally horrible.
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@masonwheeler said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@izzion said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
Each year you get a 3% raise
Wow, what world are you living in, where this is a thing? I've generally gotten raises between 0% and 0.3% throughout my career; increasing salary comes by finding a new job that pays more.
I don't recall getting anything less than 2% one year when the company's financials were really bad.
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@masonwheeler said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
@izzion said in A fool and his not-really-money are soon parted:
Each year you get a 3% raise
Wow, what world are you living in, where this is a thing? I've generally gotten raises between 0% and 0.3% throughout my career; increasing salary comes by finding a new job that pays more.
Huh? I have never heard of such a thing. Do you work for really horrible companies or are you a bad employee?