Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article)
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
This laptop RESPECTS YOUR FREEDOM! Unlike my Acer, which constantly fantasizes about locking me in a cell.
Whoa, is that a serial port? Those are hard to come by these days. My father's electronics company would love that.
I didn't see a serial power. However there is a VGA port.
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@Tsaukpaetra damn.
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
Redhat servers are the workhorse of the internet.
Ok.
@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
Most of the web apps and sites you see are served off centos or debian.
Uh.
So RedHat is the workhorse, but most websites are served off not-RedHat.
Makes sense.
EDIT: oh wait I bet this is where you explain to me that centos is actually the same thing as RedHat and I should have had a bunch of telepathic powers to know that dammit.
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@blakeyrat Derivative of it at least. But yeah, expecting people to just know that is kind of insane. The sentence is complete nonsense if you don't know.
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
This laptop RESPECTS YOUR FREEDOM! Unlike my Acer, which constantly fantasizes about locking me in a cell.
Whoa, is that a serial port? Those are hard to come by these days. My father's electronics company would love that.
Looks like standard VGA. A DB-9 serial port would only have two rows of pins.
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@Tsaukpaetra damn.
Don't worry, there's an ASUS server board available that does have a serial sport!
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
In the last 10 years of me reading Hacker News, Ars, etc. I've read more articles about companies using Mac Minis as servers than I've read about companies using RedHat.
Redhat servers are the workhorse of the internet. Most of the web apps and sites you see are served off centos or debian.
What about ASP.NET Webforms and ASP.NET Marvel vs. Capcom applications?
You only hear about the mac minis due to the novelty factor.
One shop I worked for used them as internal servers for some odd and interesting reason.
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@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
EDIT: oh wait I bet this is where you explain to me that centos is actually the same thing as RedHat and I should have had a bunch of telepathic powers to know that dammit.
I consider that the basic knowledge for people who follow the industry.
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@cartman82 My common knowledge is that Centos is a volunteer project and nobody's paid for it. I didn't know Debian had anything to do with RedHat, and in fact don't they bicker over different packaging systems?
But obviously I'm wrong stupid etc.
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@blakeyrat centos is s free version of red hat linux. Debian is a separate product, unrelated to redhat.
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@cartman82 But CentOS means they're not paying for a RHEL license.
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@anonymous234 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@cartman82 But CentOS means they're not paying for a RHEL license.
Yeah. Once your company grows enough for lawyers to get involved, you'll probably want to seamlessly upgrade to red hat proper. I guess thats their business model.
My experience is with centos becsuse none of the companies i interacted with quite reached that scale.
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@blakeyrat Time to throw another name on the pile: Fedora!
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@cartman82 I wonder who tends to use Suse, for that matter... one of the only other enterprise Linuxes. I imagine most FSF Fanatics would never touch a Novell product, but that makes me even more curious.
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@candlejack1 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
it would still take forever to shut this thing down
But at least you wouldn't get the "are you sure you want to shut down?"
Just how old is this laptop? Perhaps you'd be better off holding down the power button for 9 seconds or so instead of shutting down Windows.
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@LB_ said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
"The way a SIGTERM handler normally works is not sufficient for Steam's needs, therefore Steam needs to handle that signal correctly, but the way it actually handles that signal is incorrect."
That's not nearly as funny, though.
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
Whoa, is that a serial port? Those are hard to come by these days.
Apparently you can get a USB-to-9-pin serial for like $10.
I've been trawling Aliexpress looking at mini pcs, until I noticed they don't have any Skylake ones yet, and I noticed quite a few come with up to 4 9-pin serials ports.
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@anonymous234 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@cartman82 But CentOS means they're not paying for a RHEL license.
Yeah. Once your company grows enough for lawyers to get involved, you'll probably want to seamlessly upgrade to red hat proper. I guess thats their business model.
My experience is with centos becsuse none of the companies i interacted with quite reached that scale.
I got my company to pay for RHEL because I wanted proper support on business critical stuff. When I tried to use it on a bizarre and highly specific network problem they basically went ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ after a week.
I finally tracked it down myself as an issue with one very specific type of packet getting dropped in the VM network routing.
I can go dunno for free so we use CentOS now. I was really expecting their support would be Cisco TacOps rather than 'random internet forum' level though.
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@Cursorkeys said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
I was really expecting their support would be Cisco TacOps rather than 'random internet forum' level though.
Lots of companies think they can get away with shitty support. :(
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Once your company grows enough for lawyers to get involved, you'll probably want to seamlessly upgrade to red hat proper.
Not necessarily. A company I used to work for had a few thousand employees in more than a half-dozen countries. They used Centos (and an outdated version, at that ā I think because some mission-critical software wasn't compatible with a more recent version, but possibly due to IT and/or management inertia).
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I wonder who tends to use Suse, for that matter... one of the only other enterprise Linuxes.
I have no idea what they use now, but when I worked there, Intel used SuSE. I still have the free version on my (not currently in use) home server, because if it's good enough for Intel, it's good enough for me, or something like that.
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@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
Like what?
Like being able to update something without having to endure a 10 minute reboot sequence.
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@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
What even is a "window class"? Like... the C++ class that drew it? Or...?
In X, windows can have properties. Window class is one of those properties. It's usually set by the program and it can be used by the window manager to trigger various behaviours like sticky (appears on all virtual desktops), always-on-top, window decorations, hotkeys and so on. When windows don't set a unique window class it's obviously a lot less useful.
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@another_sam said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
In X, windows can have properties. Window class is one of those properties. It's usually set by the program and it can be used by the window manager to trigger various behaviours like sticky (appears on all virtual desktops), always-on-top, window decorations, hotkeys and so on. When windows don't set a unique window class it's obviously a lot less useful.
It's more complicated than that. Window classes also apply to the individual components of the GUI (buttons, scrollbars, etc.) and there's also a name that applies to everything in the same way. There's also a hierarchic structuring system, and ways of using this to control the styling of everything provided you can write the very strange pattern syntax required to do this. The whole system is tangled up with the way that Xt worked, and the correct word for that is ābizarreā.
I usually advise programmers to forget this stuff as it is obscure and doesn't usually do what they actually want. Especially as support is rather spotty these days (because doing it right is truly brain-bending for toolkit authors).
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@boomzilla said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@anonymous234 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
Look, as I was saying on the other thread about native GUI toolkits, if your OS has <1% of user share you're in no position to make demands to developers.
And you should totally shut up about it, too?
You should sit in a corner and weep, or simply switch to Windows! Isn't that simple? All of you fucking mormons using Linux software that doesn't even work.
filed under: manual, pfft. Fucking mormons
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@candlejack1 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@anonymous234 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
if your OS has <1% of user share you're in no position to make demands to developers.
We don't need more crap. We get crap for free on Linux. But we can pay for good shit.
Are you taking a piss?
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@dkf said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
It's more complicated than that.
Everything about X is "more complicated than that". I didn't know the details (maybe I used to but I've forgotten) but I was trying to give the rat some background. It's nothing to do with the OO class that implements a window or program.
@dkf said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
the way that Xt worked, and the correct word for that is ābizarreā.
So much this
@dkf said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
I usually advise programmers to forget this stuff as it is obscure and doesn't usually do what they actually want. Especially as support is rather spotty these days (because doing it right is truly brain-bending for toolkit authors).
It's difficult for everybody, which means it's mostly done wrong everywhere, which means its usefulness is limited. People used to seemt o try, I wouldn't bother these days either.
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@cartman82 said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
This laptop RESPECTS YOUR FREEDOM! Unlike my Acer, which constantly fantasizes about locking me in a cell.
Whoa, is that a serial port? Those are hard to come by these days. My father's electronics company would love that.
Eh, just get a toughbook. Reasonable specs, and a serial port :)
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@Polygeekery said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
a 10 minute reboot sequence.
get a SSD already ...
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@Luhmann said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
get a SSD already ...
I have them. Very few of our clients do. It is not at all uncommon for a reboot for updates to take 10+ minutes from the time that services go offline until the machine is back up and responding.
On Linux you just run your updates and then bounce some services. Downtime is not measurable. But a certain rodent says that is the same as a full reboot sequence...
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@Polygeekery said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
services go offline until the machine is back up and responding.
Oh. Your on a server. Yeah that's different.
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@Polygeekery you can even patch the kernel while it running
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@another_sam said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
In X, windows can have properties. Window class is one of those properties.
Doesn't Microsoft Windows also have window classes? That's the only time I've ever heard the term - when reading MSDN documentation.
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@another_sam said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
In X, windows can have properties. Window class is one of those properties. It's usually set by the progr
Your use of the word "usually" makes me believe that Steam is not in violation of any API contracts here and "port report guy" is full of crap for complaining about it.
I know you guys are itching to write a 500-paragraph "uh, actually" post about how exactly X11 works, but guess what? I give no fucks. The only thing I care about is: is Steam actually doing something wrong? Or is this guy complaining about nothing? Either they're in violation of an OS/API contract or they aren't.
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@Magus said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@blakeyrat Time to throw another name on the pile: Fedora!
A friend of mine is always talking about working with Fedora Core. To me that sounds more like a sci-fi Indiana Jones movie than an OS.
@dkf said in [Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article)](/topic/20401
It's more complicated than that. Window classes also apply to the individual components of the GUI (buttons, scrollbars, etc.) and there's also a name that applies to everything in the same way. There's also a hierarchic structuring system, and ways of using this to control the styling of everything provided you can write the very strange pattern syntax required to do this. The whole system is tangled up with the way that Xt worked, and the correct word for that is ābizarreā.
That actually sounds a lot like how the Win32 GUI control system works, from the high-level description at least. What are the most important differences?
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@masonwheeler said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
What are the most important differences?
I don't really know, but if you like writing style patterns like this:
*foo.Bar.?.grill*Button.font: -*-helvetica-14-*
then perhaps this is for you? (I'm not going to remember the whole XLFD syntax because it was awful.)
And I may have written that wrong. If a pattern particle starts with a lower case letter, it's a widget name. If it starts with an upper case letter, it's a class name. There was a scheme for determining which binding had priority, but that was rather complicated as it used about 4 different sources and a whole bunch of specificity rules. I forget the exact syntax for single-place wildcards; it involved
?
but I can't remember exactly how and it was a damn rare. It all makes CSS look simple.Also, if you used Xt (and Xaw or Motif) then you had to use this system because that was how you defined the binding of callback functions to events.
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@LB_ said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
Doesn't Microsoft Windows also have window classes?
Yes, but it's not the same thing as @another_sam described; it's (essentially) a name, a dozen properties (size + position, etc), and the code that handles window messages.
Windows in Windows can also have properties but they--AFAICT--aren't quite the same thing either (that is, they aren't "hints (or whatever) to the window manager".
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@blakeyrat The only thing that really bothers me is that they don't follow the Ctrl+Q convention for exiting the application or the Ctrl+W convention for closing a window. But I have a WM keybinding to send the "close window" signal anyways so it's not too horribad.
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@LB_ said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@another_sam said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
In X, windows can have properties. Window class is one of those properties.
Doesn't Microsoft Windows also have window classes? That's the only time I've ever heard the term - when reading MSDN documentation.
Yes. I had to deal with them while trying to make my OSK program.
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@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
I know you guys are itching to write a 500-paragraph "uh, actually" post about how exactly X11 works, but guess what? I give no fucks.
I am fully aware of that, but you asked the question and I gave you a short answer. No pedantry or dickweedery as far as I can tell, just a simple description to help clear up your confusion.
@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
The only thing I care about is: is Steam actually doing something wrong?
That depends on how "doing something wrong" is defined, and we've already talked about how "violating blakeyrat's expectations" is clearly buggy behaviour while violating others expectations is just them having unreasonable expectations.
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@Luhmann my laptop has one as well and I still deal with this shit.
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@Jaloopa said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
downloads when he's playing a game, a feature Steam already has
Is there a way to turn that off? Steam seems to love pausing downloads whenever I launch anything, even though I play almost exclusively single player
Yes.
There's also a per-game override.
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@blakeyrat said in Steam for Linux: The Port Report (article):
Instead of actually putting the GPU into "full screen mode" or whatever, it just draws a borderless window that covers one entire monitor. For games like GW2 that have a cursor, you can just move it to the other monitor whenever. For games that don't (like DOOM), you can alt-tab seamlessly at least.
DirectX games have to do that in real full-screen mode otherwise mouse input has a tendency to go ... somewhere. The difference is that full-screen windowed mode puts the "screen" inside the full-screen borderless window instead of in front of it.