More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it wasn't there
ObBlakeyrant: user unfriendly untested blah blah etc
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@brianw13a said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
What makes you think I had a three day warning?
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Well if there was a three day warning and I didn't see it then it wasn't really a warning was it?
When XP wanted to update they were damned annoying about it but at least I could work through it. Now here comes 7 and screw you user, your computer works for us now.
@brianw13a said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Even if I did and ignored it, who are they to decide to interrupt my work for a reboot?
The people who are sick and tired of you[1] whining about your computer getting pwned because you never apply security updates.
I get that. But damn, taking control of a system without permission sounds pretty close to what a virus/malware does.
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@drurowin said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@cheong Ah. You should upgrade to Office 365 then. You're missing out on some of the latest features with a version that's so old.
Have you tried Office 365?
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
........................................ then it is a shitty warning.
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@Lorne-Kates said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
........................................ then it is a shitty warning.
Or maybe you're just blind.
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Lorne-Kates said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
........................................ then it is a shitty warning.
Or maybe you're just blind.
Or maybe I just don't have Windows 10 installed.
But seriously-- if you're claiming someone can "miss" a warning, then it's a shitty warning. If a warning fails to warn, it's shit.
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Forgive me for my ignorance, but why do people still say "upgrade" and "buy" and "install" when you can use Microsoft Office 365 online for free in your browser without needing to install any software? Is it those extra features you get from purchasing it that make installing it worthwhile? I assume just purchasing it gets you those extra features in the online version too, right? What am I missing out on in my sheltered life?
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@Lorne-Kates said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Or maybe I just don't have Windows 10 installed.
Today's entry in the "I can't believe I had to say that" files, folks: Obviously if you're on Windows 10, you're not going to be getting any kind of "the computer needs to reboot to upgrade to Windows 10" warning.
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@LB_ said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
What am I missing out on in my sheltered life?
Office interop, for one thing. Most people probably don't need that, but my company's application uses it for mail merge, among other things[1]. We've had to tell a few people who are on Office 365 that they need to switch to 2013 on at least one machine to get back that functionality.
[1] For example, updating a spreadsheet to be sent to a 3rd party. Can't use CSV because there's macros that do processing on the sheet. We'd rather have the database fill in the data on the sheet and let them press the "run the macro" button in Excel than force them to key in (for example) demographic data on hundreds of employees.
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Obviously if you're on Windows 10, you're not going to be getting any kind of "the computer needs to reboot to upgrade to Windows 10" warning.
After all the supposedly impossible Windows 10 upgrade stories, that's far from obvious to me.
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@cheong said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@ben_lubar said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
The power went out while I was 20 minutes into a 25 minute Guild Wars 2 story instance.
That was at 21:58. The power came back on within seconds. My computer got to the login screen at 22:17.
That's why real gamers always have their machines and router pluged to UPS... but it won't survive the network loss unless you also live in a building that has datacenter on other floors. (The datacenter of those buildings will pay to have the building's router plugged on UPS too, just to save network lost on such 1-second electricity outage)
What kind of place do you live that has individual datacenters in living quarters? Our data connections in USAia all come via the cable line, which works fine (unless you lose power on the modem)
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@TimeBandit said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Magus Because Windows is sooooo insecure that even if you are behind a firewall, with an up-to-date AV, you have to apply updates ASAP ???
Depends on the bug you're patching. Sometimes, yes, you should install it RIGHT THE HELL NOW.
Usually, not so much...
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@Lorne-Kates said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Lorne-Kates said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
........................................ then it is a shitty warning.
Or maybe you're just blind.
Or maybe I just don't have Windows 10 installed.
But seriously-- if you're claiming someone can "miss" a warning, then it's a shitty warning. If a warning fails to warn, it's shit.
Actually, the Windows 10 notification system seems to be lacking..... something.
System notifications on Android are very obvious. They've got an icon for the app that sent the notification on your top bar, and they make it obvious what the source of the notification is. Same with iOS (AFAICT). In Windows, your notifications are hidden behind that little bubble. Unless you either 1. click the bubble, or 2. are there when the notification pops up, you probably won't ever see them. Since the Windows Update notifications are also included in that system, they're not easy to see...
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
After all the supposedly impossible Windows 10 upgrade stories, that's far from obvious to me.
It's not surprising a blakey alt wouldn't read what I wrote. I said "upgrade to Windows 10", not "upgrade Windows 10".
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
After all the supposedly impossible Windows 10 upgrade stories, that's far from obvious to me.
It's not surprising a blakey alt wouldn't read what I wrote. I said "upgrade to Windows 10", not "upgrade Windows 10".
Yes, I understood that when I wrote my post.
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@sloosecannon said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Unless you either 1. click the bubble, or 2. are there when the notification pops up, you probably won't ever see them
This, so much this. I've had stacks of notifications from an app that uses bubble notifications to show the currently playing track (Here's looking at you, VLC for Windows Store, or whatever it's called).
When it's happening, the notification is nice, temporary, gets out of the way quickly, like a really dumbed-down version of Android Heads Up notifications (and similar in function to balloon notifications in all previous versions of Windows).
But then the notification bubble thing sucks it up, even though I probably don't want to action on it, and after a while it's filled with notifications! (Hey, at least I know my play history, I guess? )Of course, If I'm not there, the same thing happens (tile slides in and out, with me none the wiser), gets sucked up into the bubble thing, and unless I religiously check it (or watch for it to be "lit up"), I won't ever know that Windows Defender found a PUPpy and erased a program I've had for years because it randomly decided it was Bad today.
Well, at least until I go any try to run it, whereupon I have to wonder why the shortcut suddenly looks like an anonymous application and can't be found...
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@Tsaukpaetra I'm actually not very sure how it's much different from Android? You could do the same thing there with forgetting to check for notifications. On previous versions of Windows, if you missed a notification, that's it, it's gone forever. Now what we have is miles better, and I always check the notification center like I do on Android.
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@LB_ said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Tsaukpaetra I'm actually not very sure how it's much different from Android? You could do the same thing there with forgetting to check for notifications. On previous versions of Windows, if you missed a notification, that's it, it's gone forever. Now what we have is miles better, and I always check the notification center like I do on Android.
On Android, you usually get an icon in the notification area when needed (otherwise, nothing, because no notification). Windows, it's either persistent notification icon or nothing. Since devs on Windows know this, this means persistent tray icons all the way down! Thus, if you miss a notification on Android, you can always see that fact with a unique (usually) icon in the phone's status bar area, typically separated from the system status icons.
Additionally, Android's (and I'm assuming other mobile OS's) notifications have that ability to stack like notifications if supported (for example, the media player app can update the Now Playing notification and not need to pop a whole new one, or the email app updating its notification that there are now two new emails instead just the one). On Windows, this is not possible; it's either New Balloon or nothing, baby! Coincidentally, in previous versions of Windows this was handled by simply reporting the Now, and if you wanted history clicking that balloon would display the Now in-progress action, which is typically just a status update on ongoing things anyways (like a virus scan) which have their own place in the application as far as history is concerned (if it's concerned at all).@LB_ said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I always check the notification center like I do on Android.
I almost never check it, because it takes anywhere from 5-30 seconds to load it (NFC what it's doing on my PC, should be a rather simple task, but I guess the pretty transparency effects are taxing or something).
Besides, if it is important enough that it might affect my current or future operation of my machine (i.e. We're going to reboot your PC soon!), it should be a persistent alert that flashes on my screen, like so:
(for an example of how "Old" windows did it).
or even:
(Before they "updated it" to be a timeout that defaulted to "Restart now if I don't do anything")
Even if it was a pop-under, that would catch my eye eventually, and be a much better experience than "Hey, we popped a balloon when you weren't here for a few seconds, better check the little speech bubble if you might have missed this critical notice that something is going to happen!"Granted, people might still miss it (UAC prompts anyone?), but then the default is to take a no-acknowledgement as explicit disapproval (i.e. a program required elevation but wasn't granted permissions before timeout, therefore DON'T GRANT IT PERMISSION).
Edit: Hmm, looks like MS has forgotten things...
From this (and the other Windows 10 thread), it seems they failed on at least two of the three points.
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Wow, this MS blogger is making sense!
Where has MS going so wrong!?
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@Tsaukpaetra Ahh, somehow it lapsed my mind that we were talking about the update notification. Yeah, what we had before was better. But for all other notifications, the notification center is a godsend.
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@LB_ said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
But for all other notifications, the notification center is a godsend.
Yes, agreed. When used properly, it works quite well. Unfortunately, the way WU handles it, it's .
, Repeat after me: Things that affect the user's ability to use their computer should never be allowed to disappear without that user's interaction, or require effort on the user's part to discover that thing that disappeared without their interaction.
I suppose this was their idea behind the full-screen On-top-of-everything-but-not-necessarily-keyboard-focused window that says "You need updates" with only the button to open Windows Update. Certainly can't ignore that, and it forces the user to interact with it. But on the other hand, it's disruptive and affects the user's ability to use their computer (which might be desirable from the MS point of view, but people will still whine about it, though not nearly as much as "random" reboots in the middle of "user activity").
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@Tsaukpaetra From that page :
and I quote : "On the other hand, this behavior of automatic restarts has some unintended consequences for the user."
Remember, this passed all the approval stages of a multi-million dollars corporation.
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@Lorne-Kates I have a subscribe and I love it. <3
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@TimeBandit said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Remember, this passed all the approval stages of a multi-million dollars corporation.
Right? The moment they implemented that countdown that started regardless of their interaction is the moment they lost the battle in my mind. That's why I specifically posted the version of the dialog that came before that version. ;)
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@TimeBandit said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
this passed all the approval stages of a multi-million dollars corporation
And it was usability tested, every step of the way! Because Microsoft! and SCIENCE!
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@sloosecannon said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
What kind of place do you live that has individual datacenters in living quarters? Our data connections in USAia all come via the cable line, which works fine (unless you lose power on the modem)
Hong Kong is a place with tightly packed livespace that, it's not uncommon for residential floors to be built on top or at the side of commercial ones or shopping arcade.
And btw because of the much lower rent on industrial buildings in Hong Kong, those who have too little money to rent a normal residential building, and don't want to live in "sub-divided room"/"cage room" will choose to live there (note: this is illegal in Hong Kong, but the land price of Hong Kong is too high for normal employee to buy residential one)
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@Tsaukpaetra said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
From this (and the other Windows 10 thread), it seems they failed on at least two of the three points.
All three work for me. I don't know the last time my PC restarted for updates, it just happens while I'm not there sometimes. I'm up to date and not bothered
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@Tsaukpaetra said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Right? The moment they implemented that countdown that started regardless of their interaction is the moment they lost the battle in my mind. That's why I specifically posted the version of the dialog that came before that version.
Did you know that you can force Windows 7 to not auto-update to 10 even if you're using the Home version? You just have to fool the system into thinking that there's a Group Policy Override that states that the system may not force an installation upon you (AIUI, IIRC). It still nags with that other style of dialog, but at least it doesn't screw with getting stuff done. It's also way better than just shutting down the Windows Update service; you don't really want security fixes to be shut out. (In my case, I was disabling things because the hardware was over 5 years old and was only going to be kept around for another month or two. The replacement kit uses a fresh Win10 installation.)
Can't seem to find the link that described what to do. There were one or two fairly non-obvious steps involved, so it's not something I can remember off the top of my head.
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@dkf This is easier to remember
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Not so long ago a news item that revealed that the latest trick from Microsoft was to include the Windows 10 in the "next" scheduled update, was was mentioned and discussed here. Not wanting to spend the rest of my life searching for it. I'm posting my comment at the end of the first halfway appropriate topic. So apologies if it has been mentioned before, but the lack of any structural discipline and the transitory nature of Titles is a to maintaining any disciplined structure.
Anyhoo, following that discussion I immediately switched off Auto Update. No worries. Today I was presented win a Logon Screen after waking up my PC - something that I have deliberately set to not occur. Big yellow warning about "important updates" - the first (and only notice about updates) since I made the change above.
On inspection there were 18 "critical" and 9 "optional". On closer inspection, all were unselected except for one right at the bottom of the optional list. Bonus points if you can guess which one that was...
Edit: As I was typing this my screen blanked then came on. Which was worrying because I had just replaced the PSU which "exploded" a couple of days ago - screen went blank as I was using it and I had time enough to look to see if the power light was on and witnessed the "flash". Apparently my update download / install is compete, so I checked what was "pending" a restart and could not see Windows 10 in the list.
So I will restart, and let you know. What could possibly go wrong...
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@loose said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
What could possibly go wrong...
Nothing. You might have a better OS, but there's nothing wrong with that.
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@Magus said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@loose said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
What could possibly go wrong...
Nothing
Because Windows Update is the finest example of software that never fails.
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@loose I was sorely tempted to make the that my last post....
@Magus You are right I have got a better OS. :)
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@TimeBandit Better track record than, say, KDE.
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@Magus I recently tried KDE 5. Ugh. What a disaster. Guess I will be staying on 14.04 a bit longer...
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I recently tried KDE 5. Ugh. What a disaster.
Really? I couldn't stand 4. I like 5 though, switched to KDE because of it.
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@Onyx It doesn't seem to remember sessions any more. Widgets that you put on a panel are crap on a vertical panel. Like, the K start button thingy? Grows to giant size, because it expands to take up the entire width, and it's a square. I keep the panel somewhat wide in order to be able to read the titles of opened stuff (just icons annoys me).
Kate has this annoying bug where if you're working over sftp and you go to open another file, it treats the current file name as a directory. So you get an error saying that directory doesn't exist. Then the open dialog shows the actual directory.
In order to move or resize a desktop folder or widget you have to long click to get the controls to show up. In KDE 4 they show up when you move the mouse over the folder. Had to google for the solution to that one. I suspect that's a phone brainworm thing.
Other stuff is probably just me 'ing and I only used it for a few days, but I'm super glad to be back on 4. Which was pretty rough for a while. But I was on 5.5, so that should be over the initial problem phase that you might expect from a .0 or .1 release, and it definitely doesn't feel that way.
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Widgets that you put on a panel are crap on a vertical panel.
Ah, I use a single panel on the top. So, you're just . (That's the proper response, right?)
@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Kate has this annoying bug where if you're working over sftp and you go to open another file, it treats the current file name as a directory. So you get an error saying that directory doesn't exist. Then the open dialog shows the actual directory.
That sounds annoying. I'm not using Kate for such stuff so... !
@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
In order to move or resize a desktop folder or widget you have to long click to get the controls to show up.
I'm pretty sure it was mouseover when I tried? I don't use widgets though, so you're just .
@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Other stuff is probably just me
'ingThere, FTFY, damned anti-hipster...
Filed under: What I'm saying is: fair 'nuff. I guess.
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When did the I-Hate-Windows-Update thread become Bash-Linux-DWMs?
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@Tsaukpaetra No idea, but I blame Gnome Shell.
Always blame Gnome Shell.
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@Onyx A program manager once told me that you're always safe if you lay blame on the database.
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@FrostCat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Just saw this this when I got back from lunch. Obviously it's new to the later fast ring builds.
It's been a month and I still haven't seen it. (Actually, about a month because modern software can't handle displaying dates, technology just isn't there yet.)
You're running some kind of insider build or something?
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@kt_ said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
You're running some kind of insider build or something?
Literally what he said just before the pic.
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@Onyx said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Tsaukpaetra No idea, but I blame Gnome Shell.
Always blame Gnome Shell.
Why? I like it. Wish windows 10 adapted some more bits from it.
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@Tsaukpaetra To be fair, someone who isn't an insider may not know what the fast and slow rings are.
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@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@TimeBandit said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Linux. Nevermind
My thoughts exactly.
Alternatively: are you saying there has never been a critical security exploit in Linux?
You're good, that's exactly what he said.
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@PleegWat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Why?
(Serious: too barebones to be usable by default, at least compared to Gnome2 at the time of transition. Might be better now, been ages since I used it. But I'm pretty sure Nautilus is still fucked, it's missing half the features now, WTF?)
@PleegWat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I like it.
@PleegWat said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Wish windows 10 adapted some more bits from it.
... damn it! Score one for the sword, window management is still better regardless (at least titlebars don't get stuck below the panel if it's at top, and it has alt-dragging, and always on top, and multiple desktops aren't such a pain to manege that they are useless...)
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@boomzilla said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Grunnen said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
I've had Kubuntu 12.04 LTS for a while, and when I tried to upgrade it to 14.04 LTS the upgrader crashed and left my system unbootable
I've had similar experiences. If worst comes to worst, I'll just download an installer from another machine and install fresh. Or maybe that's when I'll make the jump to debian. That's future 's problem.
Well, tell aunt Velma TDWTF will help her if she runs into any problems.
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@kt_ said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@Jaloopa said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@TimeBandit said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
Linux. Nevermind
My thoughts exactly.
Alternatively: are you saying there has never been a critical security exploit in Linux?
You're good, that's exactly what he said.
Ah, so he's an idiot. That explains a lot
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@Yamikuronue said in More Windows 10 auto-update auto-reboot nonsense:
@loopback0 Just did that for the first time myself. I left it alone at the time it suggested, and an hour before it popped up "Reminder: we're going to update in an hour, click here if you need to reschedule". All in all, a pleasant experience, much improved from previous iterations. 7/10 would update again.
What if you weren't there because you got stuck spending time with friends and family instead of waiting for Windows to update. Would you lose all your work? If yes, the update process is still shit and no amount of shitty ways to work around it is gonna change it.
I mean, I know I know, you always can reschedule and I do tend to and thanks to the way I use computer at home it hasn't bitten me in the ass yet, but the way I use computer at work I would've been pissed many times already.