Discussion of NodeBB Updates
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@kazitor said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
(no, don’t tell me; I actually read through all this before posting)
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@heterodox said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@hungrier said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Gąska On the contrary, I like that we have a place where trolling, heated arguments, off colour jokes, etc are acceptable, especially since you have to opt-in for it.
That would be true if it didn't leak constantly with little to nothing being done about it. When the Garage made me feel unwelcome, I stopped participating in the Garage. When the Garage kept intruding on the rest of my forum experience, I stopped participating in the forum. My impression is that's true for a number of other people as well.
I no longer felt comfortable surfing the forums after switching employers, and I haven't really had a good reason to log in outside of that. (And the fact that the NSFW thread just sticks there, I assume I could mute or hide it but I'm sure as hell not doing that at work)
I don't want to say it, but I probably made the correct decision.
Also not sure why the fuck I need to verify my email since I've had an account for years, nodeBB.
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@JazzyJosh said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Also not sure why the fuck I need to verify my email since I've had an account for years, nodeBB.
Because you foolishly tried to use an Oauth authorization and now your profile picture is gone.
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@Tsaukpaetra But I was using oauth previously as well.
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@JazzyJosh said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Tsaukpaetra But I was using oauth previously as well.
They fuckered it up sometime recently. Or did you not have a profile pic? I thought you did...
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@Gąska said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
But that requires mods who care. But what we have is one mod who always talks in riddles and is very selective and inconsistent in what he moderates, one mod who openly says he wants this place gone altogether, and one mod who .
It's not just on moderators to actively check every post though. There's a flag option right there.
@Gąska said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
If it was up to me, any insult in Salon, any profanity, any joke, anything not 100% serious and respectful would result in 7-day ban from posting in Salon (preferably accompanied by 24h regular ban), and second offense would result in being blocked from Salon permanently (and another 24h ban). That way, Salon would really become troll-free, one way or another.
Troll free. Fun free. People free.
I see you're using the Kim Jong Lubar definition of civilized. No warnings, just straight to ban.
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@loopback0 said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Gąska said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
But that requires mods who care. But what we have is one mod who always talks in riddles and is very selective and inconsistent in what he moderates, one mod who openly says he wants this place gone altogether, and one mod who .
It's not just on moderators to actively check every post though. There's a flag option right there.
Too bad I seem to be the only one who uses them. And too bad only 1 in 10 gets acted on.
@Gąska said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
If it was up to me, any insult in Salon, any profanity, any joke, anything not 100% serious and respectful would result in 7-day ban from posting in Salon (preferably accompanied by 24h regular ban), and second offense would result in being blocked from Salon permanently (and another 24h ban). That way, Salon would really become troll-free, one way or another.
Troll free. Fun free. People free.
Or rules free. That's the choice. And we already have garage for that.
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@Gąska said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
If it was up to me, any insult in Salon, any profanity, any joke, anything not 100% serious and respectful <...> That way, Salon would really become troll-free, one way or another.
I would agree on the ban on profanity and direct insult, but not the rest. There's a difference between trolling (bad) and simple sarcasm (occasionally appropriate). That's mostly why I don't spend much time there. You ask people to focus their minds on precise points, and they collapse into garage-level behavior.
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@jinpa said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
There's a difference between trolling (bad) and simple sarcasm (occasionally appropriate).
There is, but would you ever be able to have Rhywden, Poly, bz and Ben all agree at the same time where the line is, in every case? It's not ideal to ban jokes, but it's the only practical way that won't result in endless drama.
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An admin shouldn't be banning people for actions in a thread they got personally invested in. Delegate that decision to another member of the team if you really think there are serious problems. (It helps if you don't also kick someone off your team at the same time ...)
And if you're going to ban or remove privileges from people then you need to explain at least to those people what they did wrong, otherwise you just look like you're on a power trip. Particularly if bans are rare and you suddenly hand out a whole bunch in one go, breaking precedent for the site.
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@ben_lubar The change with the post area taking up a minimum 60% of the screen is hot garbage.
Also, you may want to check out KeenSpace/ComicGenesis if you want a look at what happens when a site with absentee owners drives off many of the interesting people.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
A common tactic they use is trying to establish a definite boundary between acceptable and unacceptable behavior so that they can brush up against the limit and accuse anyone who punishes their repeated bad behavior of overreacting.
Two questions:
- Are there other reasons that someone might want to have well-defined boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable behavior?
- If yes to the above, how do you know which of the reasons is motivating the person who is asking for well-defined boundaries?
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@antiquarian said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
- If yes to the above, how do you know which of the reasons is motivating the person who is asking for well-defined boundaries?
I have an answer that would explain everything, but I can't say it in this category.
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@Gąska said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@hungrier and yet, it made the community much more hateful, agitated and disrespectful to each other. And non-political posts have drastically shrinked in amount - and I like those the most. Especially heated discussions about programming. They used to be plentiful, and now we have maybe 2 per year.
I agree. As I recall, at the time there were a few users who were bringing their pet subjects into every topic. Because of that, the staff made the choice to create the garage so that there was at least some boundary that could be enforced. But because such a category was created, people ended up getting consumed in the conversations there. Looking back on it, I think it would have been better to just ban the users who were causing the problems. Most of them have been perma-banned or just left since then anyway.
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@abarker
It's also the other way around by keeping it in one category people who don't want to participate can block the categories.
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@Luhmann
But thinking about that a lot of those vocal about this left for other places.
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@ben_lubar said in NodeBB Updates:
An article about what happened yesterday is now available:
The problem with this is that you didn’t set these policies beforehand.
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@topspin said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in NodeBB Updates:
An article about what happened yesterday is now available:
The problem with this is that you didn’t set these policies beforehand.
When I read it's all self-importance wash words. "Look what I did! It was MY plan! I had targeted this person! I had been waiting! The "tiny steps" I had made!"
I'm surprised he didn't outright say "Tell them my name is I AM".
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@topspin said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in NodeBB Updates:
An article about what happened yesterday is now available:
The problem with this is that you didn’t set these policies beforehand.
And none of it makes any more sense than it did before. The "charges" are still vague and his idea of "neo-nazi" behavior is still literally defined as asking someone for clarification when he posts something that someone doesn't understand.
It's a despicable Kafka trap and the idea that he thinks he's making anything safe is ridiculous.
Plus, he's still pushing the unsubstantiated eugenics stuff.
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Look, I told all of you that the alt-right playbook wouldn't work here.
You can stop trying to make it work.
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@ben_lubar Fuck you.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Look, I told all of you that the alt-right playbook wouldn't work here.
You can stop trying to make it work.
No one aside from you seems to have any idea what you're talking about. You should really stop digging this hole.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Look, I told all of you that the alt-right playbook wouldn't work here.
You can stop trying to make it work.
You can stop being a broken record.
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/439173488083861506/722794128085090334/EatwT39WkAAGURC.png
Ben, take up a hobby. Go out and hatch an egg, then come back.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Look, I told all of you that the alt-right playbook wouldn't work here.
Hitler ate sugar.
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@Dragoon said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Look, I told all of you that the alt-right playbook wouldn't work here.
Hitler ate sugar.
I literally just told you that wouldn't work.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I literally just told you that wouldn't work.
Which is clearly a lie or people wouldn't have been banned.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I literally just told you that wouldn't work.
The caboose is too small to hold a proper light.
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@ben_lubar
My two primary concerns with the sudden shift in forum moderation policies are:- At least from the perspective of someone "outside" the controversy, it appears that there's been a change in the rules that are being enforced without any advance communication of that change, and people are being retroactively punished according to the new rules for behavior that happened before the rules were communicated. This is at a minimum supremely frustrating, as now I have to be concerned that I'm going to be actioned for a previous behavior that was believed to be acceptable (or at least not actionable) at the time.
- The enforcement has the appearance of being uneven, based on the political viewpoints being expressed in the objectionable post. To provide a specific example (but not intending to call out any given user, it's just the first example I could find for this post): https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/1697382 and https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/1698056 call for eliminating someone from existence and demeaning supporters of that particular politician in a bigoted manner. And yet, to my ability to determine, no action has been taken against this user for those posts (which were also in one of the major forum threads and outside of the garage, and therefore should have been subject to the same anti-bigotry rules as are now being enforced, by my understanding).
cc: @apapadimoulis
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@izzion your argument is "the trans girl we bullied out of the forum is actually the one doing the bullying"?
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@izzion your argument is "the trans girl we bullied out of the forum is actually the one doing the bullying"?
No, his argument is "We have no idea where
yourGod's line is here, and repeated requests for the line to be defined have been ignored. Here's an example of a similarly egregious example based onyourGod's prior example, yet obviously similar action has not occurred."
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In other news: when I try to upvote posts in this thread, I get a "You do not have enough privileges for this action" error. Is that a bug, or is it something new I'm not aware of?
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@Zerosquare said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Is that a bug, or is it something new I'm not aware of?
WOMM...
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@PJH said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Zerosquare said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Is that a bug, or is it something new I'm not aware of?
WOMM...
It's a very appropriate error message for that topic. Are you sure NodeBB isn't becoming sentient?
Edit: anyway I'm going to pull a Jeff Atwood and call it a "temporal bug"
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So it's a joke?
Or a bug?
Or something else?
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@Zerosquare it should work now
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It does. Thanks.
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Hey @ben_lubar, I just want you to clarify one thing about the new rule. Does it apply to the garage as well or not? Also, could you say if the report I made has influenced your actions in any way, or was it just a coincidence?
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@Gąska It was a coincidence. The "be a decent person" rule applies to all subforums.
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@ben_lubar well, bummer. Guess we need to delete that category entirely now. Considering it was created specifically for undecent posts and all...
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Oh, I see, no new topics in the Garage.
Another well communicated change. Ten points to Gryffindor.You can't just ban everyone who dares to ask what the fuck is going on. No-one here is conducting activites out of the alt-right playbook.
Sorry @apapadimoulis - there's no way you support things being done this way. With basically any regular who dares to question Ben being called a neo-nazi and banned and him refusing to explain anything except post a heavily one-sided "article".
@Gąska said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Guess we need to delete that category entirely now.
Can't fucking create topics in it anyway.
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@Zerosquare said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
So it's a joke?
Or a bug?
Or something else?The last 24 hours in 3 questions.
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@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@izzion your argument is "the trans girl we bullied out of the forum is actually the one doing the bullying"?
She's posting regularly. The posts linked by @izzion were both made in the last 48 hours. I don't see how she was "bullied out of the forum." I suspect you are confusing her with one or two other forum members.
Regardless, I want to reiterate my opinion that warnings should have been given before resorting to mass-bans. If that happened, then fine. But based on what we have heard from @boomzilla, I get the impression that no such warnings were provided.
Second, you state that there is now a zero-tolerence policy for racist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic comments. With guidelines like that, you're going to get some people leaving - not because they are necessarily any of those things, but because such guidelines often end up being subjectively enforced. For example, because of my religion, I believe that homosexuality is a sin. Many would claim that simple statement is homophobic. But I don't fear or hate people who are homosexual; just like I don't fear or hate people who smoke or drink alcohol, both of which are also viewed as sinful in my religion. I have an uncle I love to hang out with when we're in the same city, even though he has a beer with most every dinner. My brother recently got married to another man, and out relationship hasn't changed since he came out last year.
@ben_lubar said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@Gąska It was a coincidence. The "be a decent person" rule applies to all subforums.
That explicitly eliminates the original purpose of the Garage.
Look, it sounds like you are making a sudden, unannounced effort to change the culture of this forum. A forum that has thrived for years as a place where people regularly shit on each other - and prided itself on it. Without making sure this is what the forum members want, this is a good way to seriously injure the forum.
If you did this all on your own, you are seriously overstepping. If you got it okayed by @apapadimoulis beforehand, there isn't really much anyone else can do. Regardless, you should have announced to the forum at large that this change was coming before resorting to en masse bans.
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@ben_lubar said in NodeBB Updates:
An article about what happened yesterday is now available:
The thing I'm most upset about (and to be clear, I couldn't care less about the ban I've received - it was just 6 hours) is that despite having "been planning for quite some time", it never occured to him that he could just issue warnings to the users in question before taking further steps. Worst moderation ever.
And he doesn't even have balls to delete Garage entirely (or hide it, if deleting isn't his thing). Between this and the some-time planning, my hypothesis is that he deliberately left it seemingly-open to catch the users who didn't get the memo off-guard and ban them for posting things identical to the ones already posted there that they've just read.
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@abarker said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Regardless, you should have announced to the forum at large that this change was coming before resorting to en masse bans.
According to section "Stage 1" of the following post this might have actually been a deliberate tactic?
I haven't read fully through it yet and might then need to let it sink in.
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@abarker said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Second, you state that there is now a zero-tolerence policy for racist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic comments.
Plenty of tolerance for calling people neo-nazis though.
@abarker said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
such guidelines often end up being subjectively enforced.
Enforced subjectively with no warning or explanation. You're not allowed to ask which rule you've broken.
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@JBert said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
I haven't read fully through it yet and might then need to let it sink in.
It doesn't really clarify anything. It's mostly just a one-sided view of what's in this topic anyway.
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@JBert said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@abarker said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
Regardless, you should have announced to the forum at large that this change was coming before resorting to en masse bans.
According to section "Stage 1" of the following post this might have actually been a deliberate tactic?
I haven't read fully through it yet and might then need to let it sink in.
I think you're right, though I got the impression before even getting to "Stage 1." Specifically, the second paragraph.
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@abarker said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
because of my religion, I believe that homosexuality is a sin.
You're fine thinking homesexuality, drinking, smoking, and wearing white after Labor day are sins. You're fine to abstain from those things. You would not be fine to call a gay person a sinner, unless she or he specifically solicited your moral/religious opinion on the matter.
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@error said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
@abarker said in Discussion of NodeBB Updates:
because of my religion, I believe that homosexuality is a sin.
You're fine thinking homesexuality, drinking, smoking, and wearing white after Labor day are sins. You're fine to abstain from those things. You would not be fine to call a gay person a sinner, unless she or he specifically solicited your moral/religious opinion on the matter.
Are you sure? Simply because of my religion, I have repeatedly been called homophobic and transphobic. It's never on this forum (except by an asshole who thought it was fun to harass me while drunk), but with this new policy I have no idea what to expect.