🔥 Now - about that dodgy Dihydrogen Monoxide...
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@Lorne_Kates said:
I'm willing to entertain other public sector entities
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Life is a death sentence. Still, you need to prove his negligence. Oversimplified exhortations in capital letters aren't actually terribly persuasive on this front.
Well, let's abolish the law then. Everyone was going to die anyways.
Idiot.
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There is no such post in this topic. Sorry. You have a very simple and incomplete and emotional understanding of the situation.
Except for all the information posted about the timeline, the people involved, the actions they've taken, the reports from the major news networks, etc., etc.
But you go ahead and "feel" the situation out, even though you've admitted you don't know what's going on and don't know any of the information involved.
Idiot.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
And lead poisoning is a death sentence, it's just a matter of how long it will take. Idiot.
So is living. Idiot. FFS, lead poisoning takes a long fucking time to kill you at lower exposure levels. Yeah yeah, the levels were pretty high for some people, but not for that fucking long. And the LEL for lead has a hell of a lot of safety margin in it.
Goddamn man, stop being so emotional about it or your bleeding heart will kill you long before any of those people suffer from lead exposure.
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Given the private sector is one of the main raisins things are as fucked up as they are (profits above all else), fuck the private sector. The city doesn't need another for-profit organization coming in for Teh Moniez.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Given the private sector is one of the main raisins things are as fucked up as they are
Sooooooooo, the public sector had nothing to do with this? Then why are you trying to crucify the governor?
Pick a point @Fox. These goalposts are getting motion sickness.
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So is living. Idiot. FFS, lead poisoning takes a long fucking time to kill you at lower exposure levels. Yeah yeah, the levels were pretty high for some people, but not for that fucking long. And the LEL for lead has a hell of a lot of safety margin in it.
EVERYONE IS GOING TO DIE ANYWAYS WE SHOULDN'T HAVE LAWS ABOUT KILLING THEM LOLZ!
So, let's say I hit you in the brain with a brick, and give you permanent brain damage. Is that okay, because you were going to die anyways-- and besides, it'll be a long time before you really notice the loss in IQ or motor functions. Sure sometimes you will just shit your pants, or go on an uncontrollable rage in public, but it's okay because you were going to die anyways.
Idiot.
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Sooooooooo, the public sector had nothing to do with this? Then why are you trying to crucify the governor?
You mean the corrupt governor who profited from this whole ordeal? Why are you protecting a child murderer?
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@Lorne_Kates said:
You mean the corrupt governor who profited from this whole ordeal?
Prove this statement. Prove that the governor profited.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
So, let's say I hit you in the brain with a brick
I wouldn't recommend attempting such a thing. We have freedoms on this side of the border.
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I wouldn't recommend attempting such a thing. We have freedoms on this side of the border.
You have the freedom to murder children with guns.
You have the freedom to poison entire cities with impunity.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
You have the freedom to murder children with guns.
You have the freedom to poison entire cities with impunity.
No and no.
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Prove this statement. Prove that the governor profited.
Prove that he didn't.
Unless there's a different motivation for him to reject the existing water provider's proposal (DWSD), and instead go with a different, private one at a higher rate (KWA)-- and then lie about it and say the switch was to save money-- and then say he is interested in transparency to get to the bottom of this-- except that he's claimed executive privilege over all details and communications with that private firm, so they aren't subject to FOI requests.
But hey, if you want him to stay in power despite bald-face lying about money-- twice-- sure, why not. He seems a swell guy.
Oh, and he also wanted to free up land to start selling off fracking rights. But oil never leads to corruption.
Here, start here: http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/archives/2016/01/25/new-emails-reveal-the-switch-to-the-flint-river-was-not-about-saving-money
Then read the sources quoted, and those sources quoted, and the CNN, and The Guardian, and the BBC, and the CBC, and all the other outlets who have uncovered these facts (that I have linked to upthread you lazy fuck)-- and follow THEIR sources. It only gets worse from there.
When you have someone corrupt at the head, you cut off the head and let the FBI have their way.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
You have the freedom to murder children with guns.
You have the freedom to poison entire cities with impunity.
No and no.
Oh, let me clarify: you DO murder children with guns, and refuse to acknowledge that's a problem because guns are a right and some dead children are just something you have to live with.
And you DO poison entire cities because backroom deals and political corruption is a right (executive privilege), and if the person doing it is (R) then people should just stop witchhunting.
Idiot.
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I don't know why you're arguing about who's responsible. People got poisoned, willfully. And it's a big political hot potato. So look at all the politicians pointing:
Prediction: no one will be held responsible.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Oh, let me clarify: you DO murder children with guns
Are you libelously calling me a murderer? Don't go full @Fox. You never go full @Fox.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Why are you assuming that investigating and prosecuting someone is "scapegoating" them?
Just because you want to prosecute someone without evidence doesn't mean everyone else does.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Well, let's abolish the law then. Everyone was going to die anyways.
Idiot.
Don't let Obama fool you. We haven't completely abandoned rule of law in this country. We can't just go doing stuff like that because @Lorne_Kates had a sad reading about something.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Except for all the information posted about the timeline, the people involved, the actions they've taken, the reports from the major news networks, etc., etc.
The ones that can't figure out who made the actual decision? The stuff about the people testing the water lying about the tests and doing the wrong sort of testing?
@Lorne_Kates said:
But you go ahead and "feel" the situation out, even though you've admitted you don't know what's going on and don't know any of the information involved.
Yes, it's a tragedy that I don't accept your word for things that no one else actually knows.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Given the private sector is one of the main raisins things are as fucked up as they are (profits above all else), fuck the private sector
I'd LOL, but this is really @flabdablet stupid. You're making the unicorns cry.
@Lorne_Kates said:
So, let's say I hit you in the brain with a brick, and give you permanent brain damage. Is that okay, because you were going to die anyways-- and besides, it'll be a long time before you really notice the loss in IQ or motor functions. Sure sometimes you will just shit your pants, or go on an uncontrollable rage in public, but it's okay because you were going to die anyways.
You're really getting the hang of the classic @Fox illiteracy. It's more creative and trollish and interesting than blakey's schtick.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Unless there's a different motivation for him to reject the existing water provider's proposal (DWSD), and instead go with a different, private one at a higher rate (KWA)-- and then lie about it and say the switch was to save money-- and then say he is interested in transparency to get to the bottom of this-- except that he's claimed executive privilege over all details and communications with that private firm, so they aren't subject to FOI requests.
Wow. You are really smoking some stuff here.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Here, start here: http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/archives/2016/01/25/new-emails-reveal-the-switch-to-the-flint-river-was-not-about-saving-money
That is actually an interesting story, and new information.
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I propose a compromise. The governor can be charged for the city's wrongdoings if we get to charge Obama for Hillary Clinton's and Eric Holder's and John Kerry's wrongdoings.
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Yes, it's a tragedy that I don't accept your word for things that
no one elsehundreds of thousands if not millions of other people who have actually been following the story actually knows.No, it's not a tragedy. The Flint water crisis, as well as the several less publicized ones going on around the nation, are tragedies. Your refusal to accept any facts until a complete history of the entire state of Michigan has been compiled so that you can be assured that you have all of the information before making any judgment calls is just business as usual. Thankfully, it's not up to you to make those calls. ^_^
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Your refusal to accept any facts
Is something that exists in your mind.
Thankfully, it's not up to you to make those calls.
Yes, I don't want any responsibility like that. But equally thankfully, neither are lunatics like you or @Lorne_Kates.
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I propose a compromise. The governor can be charged for the city's wrongdoings if we get to charge Obama for Hillary Clinton's and Eric Holder's and John Kerry's wrongdoings.
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That is actually an interesting story, and new information.
All information is new information to you, because you know nothing about the situation. Idiot.
I propose a compromise. The governor can be charged for the city's wrongdoings if we get to charge Obama for Hillary Clinton's and Eric Holder's and John Kerry's wrongdoings.
If they've done something wrong and it was under Obama's orders (direct or "la la la I don't know about this lol"), then bring it on.
Is something that exists in your mind.
Yes. Though in this case also in reality. Upthread. Every time you post.
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Like it or not, it's not just one person nor one group's fault that this happened. It took a whole slew of people to fuck this up.
- Flint's mayor in 2013 for naively assuming that Flint would stay on the Detroit water system until the Karegnondi Water Authority was running (it's supposed to be operational sometime in 2016).
- Flint's City Council and Emergency Manager for wanting to switch to the Flint River as a temporary solution.
- The Detroit Water manager for offering a new lower rate... but would not guarantee it for the entire length of the 30 year contract.
- ...then, once the 2014 cutoff date approached, offered rates 10% higher than Flint was already paying. I don't mean higher than the rates mentioned in the previous bullet point, I mean 10% higher than they were already paying.
- The new Flint Emergency Manager rejecting the rates mentioning in the previous bullet point (yes, they were higher, but only by 10%), despite knowing that they only needed to pay it for 2-3 years.
- The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) for not requiring water from the Flint river to be treated.
- The EPA for not busting someone's ass over it sooner than they did.
Note how I'm not blaming the city council or mayor for wanting to build their own water system. I've heard enough to know why they wanted autonomy for their water system rather than using Detroit's. Things like shutting off Flint's water supply during a major power outage in 2003 despite Flint having generators (left over from the Y2K scare) in place to run equipment.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
All information is new information to you, because you know nothing about the situation.
It's like you clearly read some of the words. But somehow a lot of them just can't penetrate.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
All information is new information to you, because you know nothing about the situation.
It's like you clearly read some of the words. But somehow a lot of them just can't penetrate.
Yes, it certainly is my fault that you are unable to read the facts posted upthread.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Yes, it certainly is my fault that you are unable to read the facts posted upthread.
Well, it's your fault that you think I didn't read it.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Legionnaire's disease, 10 deaths.
Not mentioned in any of the articles you have linked. Also not yet confirmed to be caused by the switch in water supply. All they have is a correlation.
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Not mentioned in any of the articles you have linked. Also not yet confirmed to be caused by the switch in water supply. All they have is a correlation.
Michigan Leaders Knew About Flint Water’s Connection to Legionnaires’ Disease Outbreak
Just as Flint residents began to realize the severity of their water crisis, public health officials became alarmed about an outbreak of Legionnaires’ disease, which ended up killing nine people in the city. Emails just made public show that Michigan leaders were made aware of the connection almost...
“The increase of the illnesses closely corresponds with the timeframe of the switch to the Flint River water. The majority of the cases reside or have an association with the city...
“This situation has been explicitly explained to MDEQ and many of the city’s officials. I want to make sure in writing that there are no misunderstandings regarding this significant and urgent public health issue.”</blockquote>When you have reasonable suspicion that something is causing death, you act on it. Companies recall food products when they suspect contamination based on existing cases being correlated to ingestion of the product.
Don't be an idiot.
Note the article says 9 deaths, which is down from the original 10, so obviously there is some investigation going on.
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You logical fallacies are:
- Not fucking reading the rest of the post that has the argument
- Assuming that someone shouldn't have to prove a counterpoint in a fact-based argument (hint: there's a reason there's two sides to courtroom)
- Relying on "your logical fallacy is" rather than actually being part of the discussion. Idiot.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
“The increase of the illnesses closely corresponds with the timeframe of the switch to the Flint River water. The majority of the cases reside or have an association with the city...
So still just correlation. Got it.
@Lorne_Kates said:
When you have reasonable suspicion that something is causing death, you act on it. Companies recall food products when they suspect contamination based on existing cases being correlated to ingestion of the product.
But those companies still continue investigating to determine if they really are liable, and to determine if the source is still out there. The problem with a with a water supply is that you can't recall it. If Legionnaire's were contracted by drinking contaminated water, you could bring in bottled water for the affected area, but that's not how Legionnaire's transmits. It must be inhaled. So if the water supply is the cause, then people are likely getting infected when they are showering. How do you work around that quickly and effectively? I'm sure they are continuing to investigate to find the root source of the infections, but until they find the cause of the outbreaks, looking at correlations just points to possible sources.
@Lorne_Kates said:
You logical fallacies are:
- Not fucking reading the rest of the post that has the argument
Considering that someone asked you for evidence and your counter point was "Prove he didn't. What other reason could he have?", it really seems that you resorted to a Burden of Proof fallacy.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Assuming that someone shouldn't have to prove a counterpoint in a fact-based argument (hint: there's a reason there's two sides to courtroom)
There wasn't a counterpoint. Merely a statement that there were no facts to support your claim that the governor is getting rich off these events.
As for two sides in a courtroom: yes there are. There's the prosecution, whose job it is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty. Then there's the defense team, whose job is to cast reasonable doubt on the prosecution's case. To carry your analogy further, since you believe that these people are guilty, you are the prosecution. It is your job to provide the evidence. It is your job to prove your argument. Those of us who haven't made up our minds are more like a hybrid of the defense and the jury: we poke at the holes in your evidence and ask for more, then make up our minds (or don't) when you rest your case.
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So still just correlation. Got it.
You don't understand how science works, do you?
How do you work around that quickly and effectively?
Ah, so we can't prevent the outbreak right away, so we shouldn't bother. Gotcha.
Considering that someone asked you for evidence and your counter point was "Prove he didn't. What other reason could he have?", it really seems that you resorted to a Burden of Proof fallacy.
So you didn't read the post.
There wasn't a counterpoint. Merely a statement that there were no facts to support your claim that the governor is getting rich off these events.
But you didn't read the post, so your fallacy is something something.
haven't made up our minds
Please, tell me how you feelz about it. Feelz are a great counterpoint to facts.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
You don't understand how science works, do you?
Sure, but when identifying the source of a disease outbreak, do you know how it's done? By tracing and comparing the strains. If they are going to determine that the new water source is the source of the recent Legionnaire's outbreak, they need to compare the strain from the water source to the strain in an infected individual (or individuals). If the strains match, then they can say that the new water source is the cause of the increase in Legionnaire's cases. Until then, all they can say is that they have a correlation.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Ah, so we can't prevent the outbreak right away, so we shouldn't bother. Gotcha.
/sigh/
I presented an example of how to quickly work around a similar but different problem, then asked how to quickly work around the current problem. How is that the same as saying not to do anything?
@Lorne_Kates said:
So you didn't read the post.
Sure I did. It was based on a bunch of emails "obtained" by the Motor City Muckraker, an independent news source. They aren't mentioned by Wikipedia and their website doesn't have an about page. Kind of hard to trust the validity of a news source when you can't even find out who the hell they are.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Please, tell me how you feelz about it. Feelz are a great counterpoint to facts.
Feelz
gathering facts, but don't let that stop you in your campaign for "justice".
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Until then, all they can say is that they have a correlation.
You don't understand how science or triage works, do you?
Sure I did. It was based on a bunch of emails "obtained" by the Motor City Muckraker,
You selectively read a single part of the post, and didn't follow through on anyone's quoted sources. Sooo... you'll never believe anything because you ignore facts. That's a good attitude to have.
Feelz
gathering facts, but don't let that stop you in your campaign for "justice".Oh no. You put airquotes around words! The completely invalidates all my facts! It also means that no investigation should be done, and no one should dare to blame/witchhunt a (R) candidate. Sorry, Flint, you're a bunch of fucktard for chasing that "justice" windmill. So sayeth the Barker.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
You selectively read a single part of the post, and didn't follow through on anyone's quoted sources. Sooo... you'll never believe anything because you ignore facts. That's a good attitude to have.
FFS. I read the damn post. Here, I'll even break it down for you:
@Lorne_Kates said:
Prove that he didn't.
There's your Burden of Proof fallacy.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Unless there's a different motivation for him to reject the existing water provider's proposal (DWSD), and instead go with a different, private one at a higher rate (KWA)-- and then lie about it and say the switch was to save money-- and then say he is interested in transparency to get to the bottom of this-- except that he's claimed executive privilege over all details and communications with that private firm, so they aren't subject to FOI requests.
That's where you pointed at a bunch of different things that don't really show that he took money. In fact, some of those decision were completely out of Snyder's hands. Take, for instance, the decision to switch to KWA (March 25, 2013). That decision was made by the Flint City Council, not just the emergency manager appointed by Snyder. Since the decision was not made by Snyder or the emergency manager he appointed, why suspect that he profited from it?
[cite]
@Lorne_Kates said:
But hey, if you want him to stay in power despite bald-face lying about money-- twice-- sure, why not. He seems a swell guy.
The stuff I'm aware of, and can find right now, indicates that the emergency managers were lying about the costs well before Snyder was even commenting. If they were publicly lying there is always the chance that they were lying to him. Or maybe they weren't, and he's just sticking with their public statements in an effort to save face. In any case, this still isn't evidence that he took money over the deal. It could have been a political move. It could have been a move to get them off of Detroit Water for any reason (remember back when Flint was without water because of a power outage, even though they had plenty of power generators to run the equipment?). Basically, there are reasons besides Snyder's personal gain that fit these facts.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Oh, and he also wanted to free up land to start selling off fracking rights. But oil never leads to corruption.
That's irrelevant to the discussion regarding whether he has taken money in connection to the Flint water crisis. I'll ignore it now.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Here, start here: http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/archives/2016/01/25/new-emails-reveal-the-switch-to-the-flint-river-was-not-about-saving-money
Then read the sources quoted, and those sources quoted,
I read that article already, so I'll just quote what I wrote before:
It was based on a bunch of emails "obtained" by the Motor City Muckraker, an independent news source. They aren't mentioned by Wikipedia and their website doesn't have an about page. Kind of hard to trust the validity of a news source when you can't even find out who the hell they are.
This time I took a look at the Motor City Muckraker article, and they cite the Bill Johnson Group as their source. BJG is a Detroit based public affairs, public relations, and media consulting firm. Not exactly a long list of sources there.
@Lorne_Kates said:
and the CNN, and The Guardian, and the BBC, and the CBC, and all the other outlets who have uncovered these facts (that I have linked to upthread you lazy fuck)-- and follow THEIR sources. It only gets worse from there.
I'm not digging around numerous news sites for details to support your claim that Snyder is getting rich of this fiasco. You made the claim, you back it up.
@Lorne_Kates said:
When you have someone corrupt at the head, you cut off the head and let the FBI have their way.
Sounds like you're trying to drum up a mob.
There, I've proved that I read the damn post now. If you still think that Snyder is making money off of this, show some evidence. Otherwise, STFU.
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There, I've proved that I read the damn post now
It only took dozens of attempts (for some values of dozens). Maybe next time you'll learn to do things right the first time.
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Yeah, because my last post wasn't just repeating and condensing things I'd already said.
It's almost like you're trying to look like an imbecile.
Maybe next time you can save the embarrassment and just take my word when on say I've read the fucking post.
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Maybe next time you can save the embarrassment and just take my word when on say I've read the fucking post.
Only if you provide any evidence that you actually have rather than-- you know-- blathering on about dumb shit.
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Former Flint, Michigan Mayor Dayne Walling "accepts" responsibility:
“The red flag started waving for me with the TTHM [advisory] and understanding that I had not been given very basic information from the tests,” he said. He went to a meeting with the Department of Environmental Quality and other officials, and realized, “I’m looking around the room and everybody, the director of public works, the emergency manager, everybody knows what’s going on but me.”
There's more nonsense about him almost acting, but this is basically the core: I tried, but no one would tell me what was going on so ... no mea culpa. He regrets some comments he made...that's it.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
companies recall food products when they suspect contamination
what? They do? Why? They're fucking private sector, all they want to do is kill people for the moniezzz!
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Like it or not, it's not just one person nor one group's fault that this happened. It took a whole slew of people to fuck this up.
Flint's mayor in 2013 for naively assuming that Flint would stay on the Detroit water system until the Karegnondi Water Authority was running (it's supposed to be operational sometime in 2016).
Flint's City Council and Emergency Manager for wanting to switch to the Flint River as a temporary solution.
The Detroit Water manager for offering a new lower rate... but would not guarantee it for the entire length of the 30 year contract.
...then, once the 2014 cutoff date approached, offered rates 10% higher than Flint was already paying. I don't mean higher than the rates mentioned in the previous bullet point, I mean 10% higher than they were already paying.
The new Flint Emergency Manager rejecting the rates mentioning in the previous bullet point (yes, they were higher, but only by 10%), despite knowing that they only needed to pay it for 2-3 years.
The Michigan Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) for not requiring water from the Flint river to be treated.
The EPA for not busting someone's ass over it sooner than they did.Note how I'm not blaming the city council or mayor for wanting to build their own water system. I've heard enough to know why they wanted autonomy for their water system rather than using Detroit's. Things like shutting off Flint's water supply during a major power outage in 2003 despite Flint having generators (left over from the Y2K scare) in place to run equipment.
No, we must greatly oversimplify things and use that gross oversimplification to crucify the governor. Or are you in favor of poisoning children?
Let me get my tinfoil hat. You can borrow it until you can fashion your own.
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No, we must greatly oversimplify things and use that gross oversimplification to crucify the governor. Or are you in favor of poisoning children?
Again, quote me where I said the Gubbie is solely responsible, and no one else.
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So you're in favor of poisoning children?
You fucking monster.
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So you're in favor of poisoning children?
You fucking monster.
Only certain children.
The black ones.
But I'll poison them with education.
(Cyanide-laced education pills)
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Apparently Canadians are losing nuclear shit all the time, maybe you should fuck off about water quality in other countries? ;)
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https://news.vice.com/article/nuclear-and-radioactive-packages-keep-going-missing-in-canada?utm_source=vicenewstwitter
Apparently Canadians are losing nuclear shit all the time, maybe you should fuck off about water quality in other countries? ;)
If you want to read about Canadian water fuckups and Conservative fuckery, look no further than Walkerton, Ontario:
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@Lorne_Kates said:
If you want to read about Canadian water fuckups and Conservative fuckery
I don't.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
If you want to read about Canadian water fuckups and Conservative fuckery, look no further than Walkerton, Ontario:
They had an investigation and a trial? No lynch mobs taking care of the problem immediately?
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Contaminated Flint water among most expensive in the U.S.
Residents of Flint, Michigan, one of the poorest cities in the United States, paid some of the nation's highest water bills even as the city failed to treat drinking water properly, leading to lead contamination, according to a report released on Tuesday.
The annual water bill in Flint as of January 2015 was $864.32 for a household using 60,000 gallons a year, said Washington-based advocacy group Food & Water Watch.
The study - which looked at the 500 largest community water systems in 48 states - showed that private, for-profit water systems generally charged more than the public water systems that prevail around the country. Flint's water system is public.
So all of this was about cost-cutting? And they couldn't even do that right.
Nuclear and Radioactive Packages Keep Going Missing in Canada
