Mrguyorama defends Gibberish
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So Windows is buggy because it doesn't cater to a use case that is infinitely small? That's not a bug report, that's a feature request, and as such, requires enough justification for implementation.
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Windows breaks something that was working before it got broken by Windows. I'm saying that's a bug, because it obviously is.
There are legitimate reasons to not fix bugs and I certainly understand why Microsoft wouldn't fix this one. That doesn't mean it doesn't upset me when I come across it.
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Windows breaks something which isn't part of Windows that was working before it got broken by Windows in order to make sure that Windows works.
So how is that a bug in Windows?
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I ran the "format this disk" tool and now my data is gone, Winblows amirite?
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So how is that a bug in Windows?
Windows is breaking something on my computer that worked before windows touched it. That's a bug.
I ran the "format this disk" tool and now my data is gone, Winblows amirite?
Yes, a layer 8 bug.
But I'm glad you brought that up, because I was thinking along the same lines. If Windows went and wrote data in some place (another partition, flash drive, networked drive) and messed something up, following your logic, we'd conclude it wasn't a Windows bug.
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Not if you were the one clicking the "Yes totally write data here I'm sure it's fine" button.
The biggest problem I see right now is that the Windows installation doesn't give any warning that it rewrites the boot sector
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The biggest problem I see right now is that the Windows installation doesn't give any warning that it rewrites the boot sector
You might even call that...a bug. Well, no, you wouldn't. But I would. Honestly, I'd be happy if they just gave the option to not change anything. Then I could use a tool that didn't break stuff to update stuff instead of use a tool to fix what Windows broke.
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I don't know what grldr is and Google is not helpful here
Its a grub binary that you could configure the windows boot loader to add as a menu option. Surprising that google didn't bring it up, I figured a random string of letters like that would be an easy hit. Let me guess: Grldr looks like a common polish word? Or is it an app? Sounds like the female version of Grindr.
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Let me guess: Grldr looks like a common polish word? Or is it an app? Sounds like the female version of Grindr.
None of those - according to Google, it's something that some Windows XP users have missing, which causes problems.
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So Windows is buggy because it doesn't cater to a use case that is infinitely small? That's not a bug report, that's a feature request, and as such, requires enough justification for implementation.
At my company, we just had to add a new parameter to a message, of an enum type with just one possible value. Justification my ass.
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Take that up with your manager. Some companies actually understand the damage of feature creep
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requires enough justification for implementation.
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If they did it right the first time, it would cost 0.1 programmer hours to fix, 0.5 man hours to test, and depending on The Process™ 0.5 to 1.3872E+8 man(ager) hours to approve.
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A small, nevertheless significant, part of the clientele really, really wants it.
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Giving an option not to overwrite something someone put there with a good reason in a place that hasn't directly anything to do with the software to be installed is "expected standard behavior"
Well, I understand that that's obviously not enough – no further consideration needed for points 1 and 3, and point 2 affects only those that use products of competitors.
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But still, is it a net gain, for everyone involved?
From Raymond Chen: The feature battle
Every idea for a feature starts out with an imaginary deficit of -100 points. That means it has to demonstrate a significant net-positive effect on the product as a whole in order to emerge as being truly worthy of consideration.
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But still, is it a net gain, for everyone involved?
As long it's not a loss for anyone, and a net gain for some people, that should do.And where do the -100 come from? Lazyness? They changed it, now it sucks (on behalf of the decision makers)? Costs of development and implementation should be subtracted after the start of the consideration.
Although I believe that net gain considerations do play a role, they're definitively not the only criterion.
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Giving an option not to overwrite something someone put there with a good reason in a place that hasn't directly anything to do with the software to be installed is "expected standard behavior"
So "expected standard behaviour" is "I installed Windows and it's nowhere to be found?"
Windows has no idea how to hook itself into GRUB, Windows probably can't read GRUB entries directly to take over and do dual-boot itself, and it needs to boot into itself to even complete the installation. So cry as much as you want, an "expected standard behaviour" is not "I ran Setup, and I ended up at my Linux desktop with a half-assed install on disk".
And where do the -100 come from? Lazyness? They changed it, now it sucks (on behalf of the decision makers)? Costs of development and implementation should be subtracted after the start of the consideration.
Implementation, testing, design, UX work, support, legacy support, dealing with people abusing the feature to do undocumented things. All that to cater to the one or two guys who:
a) want to dual-boot Linux and Windows
b) insist on installing Windows second
c) are okay with a bash shell, but googling for bcdedit is just too much for them.Yep, that makes it maybe -99 in the end.
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But still, is it a net gain, for everyone involved?
From Raymond Chen: The feature battle
The idea originally came from Eric Gunnerson's Minus 100 Points.
And where do the -100 come from?
It's applied to any proposed new feature to account for the expense of developing and supporting that feature. Before committing resources to develop a new feature, it has to be able to provide a net positive. The feature you are championing can't dig itself out of the initial -100 deficit.
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Am I the only one whose brain really wants to find "mrmagoo" as a substring of @mrguyorama?
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said:
On another note, I find it intersting that if the tables had been turned there is at least one other user on this forum who would have been yelling "its a BUG! Open source bootloaders are developed by IDIOTS!". The silence speaks volumes, hypocrite.
You do realize that @mrguyorama isn't the only one saying that Microsoft's current position on this makes sense? I even made a post about it that got likes from 3 people other than @mrguyorama. Apparently there are people who agree and aren't chiming in because they have nothing new to add.
Now, go work on pulling your foot out of your mouth.
Not sure I need to. Even you will have to agree that I'm right about
@he-who-must-not-be-mentioned
's likely reaction to the reverse situation.If I have a particular setup on my machine and do regular maintenance, I don't expect to have to go through extra hoops just to get it working again. Ergo, it's a bug. It might be a deliberate bug because the ROI for building a more considerate bootloader is too low, but it is still a bug.
Are MS right in behaving this way? I don't know. I guess as long as the hardware manufacturers are fine with it, and the number of affected users is sufficiently low, they are. But it does rhyme badly with their strategy of getting those <5% deviants back into their lap. It also reeks somehwat of monopolism, something which I thought MS was very careful about these days. They don't want to be split up into a bunch of "Baby Bills".
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There's another side of this coin as well. I guess most of us have a cohort of friends, relatives, and countrymen that come to us and ask us about computer-related advice (or request system maintenance), simply because we know more about computers than they do. One might argue that linux users don't have that many real friends, but they do at least have relatives to which they -- I hypothesise -- provide similar computer support.
Business decisions such as the aforediscussed, doing nothing to befriend this group of linux-users, will thus spread MS bad-will to a larger number of users than those directly affected by the decision. This, too, is not a sound marketing strategy in the long run.
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So "expected standard behaviour" is "I installed Windows and it's nowhere to be found?"
Windows has no idea how to hook itself into GRUB, Windows probably can't read GRUB entries directly to take over and do dual-boot itself
Sorry, I thought we were talking about a system update where all the necessary loaders are already installed, not a fresh install.
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Business decisions such as the aforediscussed, doing nothing to befriend this group of linux-users, will thus spread MS bad-will to a larger number of users than those directly affected by the decision.
Don't we all have this one cousin for whom the idea of paying for computer repairs is "listening to a three-hour tirade about how Microsoft is out to get your soul, how compiling from source is the only sensible way to install programs, and how you should switch to Slackware for your Facebook browsing right now".
Filed under: if you don't, chances are you're that one cousin
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@PWolff said:
And where do the -100 come from?
Implementation, testing, design, UX work, support, legacy support, dealing with people abusing the feature to do undocumented things
It's applied to any proposed new feature to account for the expense of developing and supporting that feature. Before committing resources to develop a new feature, it has to be able to provide a net positive. The feature you are championing can't dig itself out of the initial -100 deficit.
So the -100 isn't a fixed value but a very raw estimate of the costs of implementation.
I'd say organizing a menu the way it is de facto standard or os manufacturer standard instead of developer preference would have a very little cost (additionally to the cost that will have to be accounted for anyway) to start with, maybe -5 points, (except for developers that are so inflexible that they deserve being broken), and developing a new core functionality for an idea that is so new that there don't exist any libraries for yet (like web browsers in the early 1990s) would have to start at about -1000.
But that's not a property of the feature. It is a function of the feature itself (of course), the already implemented features, other related features that are granted to be installed in the near future, available libraries, and so on.
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So "expected standard behaviour" is "I installed Windows and it's nowhere to be found?"
According to your shoulder aliens?
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When I play online games, people usually call me "MrGuy". It just seems... wrong
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Do some of them call you Ama?
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Nope. It's intended interpretation was Mr Guyorama as in it's a last name and you are addressing me in a formal tone. It always confused me. Who shortens tittles and last names? Do they also say "Mr Pres"?
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@he-who-must-not-be-mentioned
Did you mean @voldemort, @candlejack, or @bl ...
CONNECTION_NOT_FOUND
Filed under: Freakazoid was something I watched as a twentysomething slacker. That was 20 years ago. I feel really old right now.
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Many gamers use abbreviated versions of screen names because it's easier to to type quickly.
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They actually speak the words "Mr Guy"
It just sounds stupid. Then again, I chose the name when I was like 12, it IS stupid
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If you are playing a game where team communication is really important, people will use abbreviated names in callouts regardless of how they sound. On a side note, if you are careful enough with the name selection, you can get people to say all sorts of things without them realizing it.
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Who shortens tittles
Sons of bitches, that's who.
last names?
People who have to work with people with long last names?
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To be fair, people most often call me "ts-ock", because apparently "Ts-awk-pay-trah" is too much of a tongue twister.
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In Guild Wars 2, I'm named Blergo. If someone finds a way to shorten that, let me know.
In Valve games, I'm named Casimer the Adequately Skilled. If someone finds a way to lengthen that without going over the name length limit, let me know.
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In Guild Wars 2, I'm named Blergo. If someone finds a way to shorten that, let me know.
Aye, aye, Bler.
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I've had people here go with "Macie" for some reason. Is that even a valid name?
I should change that handle sometime...
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Ok, B.
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For a long while my mind just stumbled over all the consonants in your name and just parsed it as 'Mackie'.
Filed under: Berthold Brecht
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Is that even a valid name?
Those of us who don't know Polish don't know whether it's valid or not. It seems like a reasonable, pronounceable substring of Maciejasjmj.
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Like the guy who changed his display name to "Xbox Log Off"
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Is that even a valid name?
GIS finds many hits of pictures of people for it, so I'd guess yes.
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I often get mistaken for someone called Marc.
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I'd like too add an important data point to the discussion about boot loaders.
A key assumption everyone in this thread has been making is false.
The windows 7 to windows 10 upgrade, on a BIOS + grub2 machine, does not clobber grub.
Attached to this, a recommendation: If you have to upgrade such a machine, and you want to do it unattended, it's best to set the default boot option to the relevant windows partitionfirst.
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Bwargh! Don't confuse this discussion with facts!
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I would have said "marks" but apparently that's fascist or something?
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In Guild Wars 2, I'm named Blergo. If someone finds a way to shorten that, let me know.
"How's it goin', Bluh?"
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I've had people here go with "Macie" for some reason. Is that even a valid name?
You're the Polish guy, you tell us!
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Look, not all incomprehensible garbage is Polish.
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Look, not all incomprehensible garbage is Polish.
I never said it was! I don't guess about non-English names because that's a place I don't want to offend people. For all I know, Mac is a good nickname. It is, in English. Well, it's legitimate, anyway.