Mrguyorama defends Gibberish
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Mac, yes (though it doesn't work too well in Polish, since the "c" is more like "tch").
Macie, on the other hand? It's like calling an Erica "Eric".
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Look, not all incomprehensible garbage is Polish.
And conversely, not all Polish is incomprehensible garbage.
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It might not be garbage, but if you don't know any Polish, it's all incomprehensible.
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Mac, yes (though it doesn't work too well in Polish, since the "c" is more like "tch").
Ol' Match is in on fire tonight.
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I'd like too add an important data point to the discussion about boot loaders.
Look, not all incomprehensible garbage is Polish.
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Like the guy who changed his display name to "Xbox Log Off"
That shit never gets old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGZeU4s28kk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpLUXPvcEMA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-k7B--df-Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MG2njSwXXs
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I'm confused - nobody mentioned lojban so far. How come?
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Look, not all incomprehensible garbage is Polish.
When I was on an international conference several years ago (conference language was English – I usually start dreaming in English the third night under those circumstances) someone approached me and asked me something that was nothing but gibberish to me. (I thought he could have spoken Polish as well, I'd have understood quite as much - this for the reason I associate that event with this post.)
Turns out it was a German that had seen by my name badge that I was a German too, and addressed me in German.
the gibberish/language subthread could be moved to a different topic, IMHO.
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I'm confused - nobody mentioned lojban so far. How come?
What's the point of mentioning something that's only used by one person?
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the gibberish/language subthread could be moved to a different topic, IMHO.
Meh, topic drift.
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See: Welsh.
That's just English with
s/[aeiou]//g
, no?Except Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. That's just silly.
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The windows 7 to windows 10 upgrade, on a BIOS + grub2 machine, does not clobber grub.
Thank you. I haven't pulled the trigger on Win10 yet. It will be interesting to see if I can reproduce your experience. FWIW, I'll be going from 8.1 to 10. The 8 to 8.1 upgrade did wipe out grub for me.
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Meh, topic drift.
Lazy mods, not doing their jobs!
Not really; topic drift hardly ever bothers me.
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Oh great, now we're drifting again!
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Why not? Topic drift is an interesting subject. Not for more than 127 posts, though.
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Well if you fall off the edge, you might find yourself on the other side and never get back!
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Well if you fall off the edge, you might find yourself on the other side and never get back!
Well, that part's easy. Just tip the boat over right at sunset. Or is it sunrise? The green flash is the thing to look for.
http://www.ryanphillips.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/upisdown.png
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Why wait for a flash when you can simply invert the world yourself?
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Only to get rid of ads. Just like Windows 8/8.1. The ads are just more pushy.
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When I was on an international conference several years ago (conference language was English – I usually start dreaming in English the third night under those circumstances) someone approached me and asked me something that was nothing but gibberish to me. (I thought he could have spoken Polish as well, I'd have understood quite as much - this for the reason I associate that event with this post.)
Turns out it was a German that had seen by my name badge that I was a German too, and addressed me in German.
But are you ribbing Swabian German or don't you speak German at all?
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But are you ribbing Swabian German or don't you speak German at all?
Good point.
As no funny response comes to my mind: neither hypotheisis holds. Standard German is more or less my native language. And the language I was addressed in was clearly comprehensible standard German too.
There isn't just Swabian German I don't understand (a bit I do meanwhile, though, for my wife is Swabian) and other Germans ridicule but as well Bavarian, Frisian, anything coming from a rivaling tribe.
I watched something like that when I was a child - my parents were chatting with a Scotswoman, about German food, when my father asked her, "are you fond of Quark?" and she looked at him like a car and said, "could you please repeat - I wasn't prepared for English!"
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From Raymond Chen: The feature battle
Additionally: [url=http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2005/12/20/505887.aspx]Why does Windows setup lay down a new boot sector?[/url]
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Nice find.
@Raymond Chen said:
Yes, this means that if you are an ultradweeb with a custom boot sector, you will lose it when you install Windows.
Those are fighting words!@Raymond Chen said:
But Windows isn't picking on you. It even destroys itself. If you take a Windows XP machine and install Windows 2000 onto it, the Windows 2000 setup program will lay down a new boot sector that knows how to boot Windows 2000 but doesn't know about Windows XP. You'll have to restore the Windows XP boot files to restore that functionality.
Oh, ok then.
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Indeed. Windows' is universally shitty.
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a new boot sector that knows how to boot Windows 2000 but doesn't know about Windows XP
Given that any version of Windows or DOS can be booted just by loading and executing relative sector 0 of the partition it's installed on, this is stupid.
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Raymond is simply justifying why its not worth MS' time to fix the bug. That's fine. It's important to use one's time wisely. But still don't expect people to be happy about obvious bugs that break shit.
@blakeyrat said:
No one said that writing good software is easy!
....or something along those lines.
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Given that any version of Windows or DOS can be booted just by loading and executing relative sector 0 of the partition it's installed on, this is stupid.
UEFI boot sees that certainty and laughs!
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UEFI bootloader installation involves writing complete secondary bootloaders as ordinary files into a disk partition dedicated to that purpose, and the firmware itself knows how to give the user a choice of which of those to use, so it doesn't create contention for the MBR in the first place.
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UEFI bootloader installation involves writing complete secondary bootloaders as ordinary files into a disk partition dedicated to that purpose, and the firmware itself knows how to give the user a choice of which of those to use, so it doesn't create contention for the MBR in the first place.
Yes, but none of that worked. Nor anything else. The BIOS on that Dell system just would not see any boot loader on any fixed disk it had plugged into it, and would just proceed to say “no”. It was just a spin cycle of NOT FUCKING WORKING. If I'd known how much pain was going to arise, I'd have plugged in a spare USB drive and been done back last Friday.
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First UEFI laptop I ever tried to set up turned out to be a prick of a thing. I wanted to dual boot Linux and Windows 7, and it was hard. An overlapping set of BIOS limitations, Windows 7 Setup limitations and Debian installer limitations made it take a very long time to get the setup I wanted (machine boots into Grub, then selectably chainloads Windows) to work.
I ended up partitioning the drive with MBR and installing everything in legacy boot mode. Which works, but only after I'd wiped the old EFI system partition left over from previous failed attempts; if that exists, then the firmware tries to boot from it even with legacy mode enabled, the MBR boot block never gets executed, and the leftover Windows EFI bootloader instantly fails because it can't find the rest of itself on a non-GPT-partitioned disk. It was all horrible.
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are you fond of Quark?
It's strange but charming, if you can keep the bottom down and the top up.
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Given that any version of Windows or DOS can be booted just by loading and executing relative sector 0 of the partition it's installed on, this is stupid.
Sure, you say that now, and then Windows 11 comes along and that's no longer true.
Besides, there's long been a known way to deal with this: install Windows first, then your other OS(es).
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But still don't expect people to be happy about obvious bugs that break shit.
Oh brother, you're using @blakeyrat's weird-ass definition of "bug" now too. Or did you forget who you logged in as?
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The BIOS on that Dell system just would not see any boot loader on any fixed disk it had plugged into it
I had a Dell at work that had something reminiscent of that. I think the issue I had was something along the lines of "you could set something boot-related in the BIOS to use UEFI-style boot if you were using Windows 8, but Win7 wouldn't work and you had to use the older BIOS-style boot".
In my case I think the computer came with Win7 and a license to upgrade to 8; I tried setting a UEFI boot in the BIOS, and it wouldn't start. So I set the setting back, booted to Windows, upgraded to 8, rebooted, went back into the BIOS, and then the UEFI boot worked. Maybe that will help.
I can look at the BIOS for you to try to find what the setting was, but I would have to get a monitor and stuff and plug it in.
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Which works, but only after I'd wiped the old EFI system partition left over from previous failed attempts; if that exists, then the firmware tries to boot from it even with legacy mode enabled
That sounds suspiciously familiar. Problem I've got now is that I have no clue where the EFI partition was. :D It's all buried under the RAID and the disks all look completely identical to the BIOS as far as I can see.
The machine won't ever run Windows; it was bought explicitly to not do that, so it can act as a bridge between one set of weird crufty systems that are hooked up to some kick-ass experimental gear, and another set of weird crufty systems that are hooked up to our main institutional mass filestore. The filestore only exports itself via CIFS and NFS3 and we need to use the NFS side so that we can feed the data through our main HPC cluster (which doesn't talk CIFS at all). So the bridging system needs to be there.
It's not all bad. It'll give us a chance to make sure we get the metadata recorded right (i.e., not just what user and when, but also what experimental protocol and which sample; we really don't want to encode those in the filename in the Bad Old Way) and that'll save us years of pain down the road.
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install Windows first, then your other OS(es).
...which is all fine and dandy until you update to a newer version of Windows, at which point it may or may not break your bootloader, which is where we came in.
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The machine won't ever run Windows
Is the current situation that it won't boot anything else either? Because I have now learned a trick or two and might be able to help you fix that.
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Is the current situation that it won't boot anything else either?
It boots from a memory stick and isn't in a public area so we've reached the stage of “fuck it, good enough”. :) I'm also off work for a week now for a holiday, and the system isn't reachable at all from off our internal networks. Cracking open the VPN… nah.
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@boomzilla said:
But still don't expect people to be happy about obvious bugs that break shit.
Oh brother, you're using @blakeyrat's weird-ass definition of "bug" now too.
I disagree. I had a working system. It no longer works. That seems like a legitimate cause to be called a bug. This isn't something like the menu rendering in a non-standard way.
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That seems like a legitimate cause to be called a bug.
Except Microsoft calls it a deliberate design decision. You may not like that it works that way, and I am actually tempted to agree with that position, but it works like it's supposed to work, so it's not a bug, by definition.
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Except Microsoft calls it a deliberate design decision.
So it's a design bug.
You may not like that it works that way, and I am actually tempted to agree with that position, but it works like it's supposed to work, so it's not a bug, by definition.
I'd say that they've decided it's not a bug worth trying to fix. Actually, that's what Raymond himself said. And I've said that I understand their position. And since I'm not a lefty, I can understand things that I don't like.
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Troll
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I'm also off work for a week now for a holiday
When you get back, fire up
parted
and have a look at what's supposed to be the boot drive. Betcha you find that it has GPT partitioning and there exists a partition with theboot
flag turned on. That's an EFI system partition, and if it exists there's a high chance your UEFI firmware will be trying to run a bootloader off that even when you put it in legacy mode.You can install Grub on a GPT-partitioned drive and boot from it in legacy mode, but its Stage 1 boot code in the GPT's protective MBR needs to get control at some point, and if there's an EFI system partition present then depending on your firmware this might simply never happen.
It's better to turn legacy mode off and go full UEFI if you can. On Debian, this is as easy as installing the
grub-efi
package instead of thegrub-pc
package; can't speak for other distros but I don't imagine it would be harder. This will only ever work if you turn legacy support off in the firmware options, because doing so exposes some extra firmware APIs thatgrub-efi
relies on.I ended up not doing that because I wanted to dual boot with Windows 7, and with the firmware I was using, Windows 7 installed in UEFI mode would hang halfway through the glowy-window boot animation unless legacy support was on. Windows 8+ doesn't do that at least.
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what's supposed to be the boot drive
That's a non-trivial problem in itself, as there are three identical-looking disks in there.
Betcha you find that it has GPT partitioning and there exists a partition with the boot flag turned on.
No. That's gone; the setup of the RAID smashed it and the BIOS knows there's no UEFI things it can boot from, and we checked with
parted
andgdisk
. There are definite visual differences between legacy and UEFI boot at the point where they stop and give up, so I'm pretty sure we've got things correctly in legacy mode, but neither actually works.I need to find a smaller USB disk. One of these would do: