WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I always wondered about that: can this stupid OS not run it's background batch jobs without popping up a console window visible to the user?!
Because of the way things work with various Windows subsystems, no, it's pretty much can't unless you do major trickery (that can affect other aspects of how the subprocesses run).
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This post is deleted!
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I always wondered about that: can this stupid OS not run it's background batch jobs without popping up a console window visible to the user?! I haven't tried, but is the close button enabled and can a normal user actually kill it if he's quick enough?
If a process does not have a "desktop session" there are a number of things it can not do.
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@topspin said in [WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else](/post
I always wondered about that: can this stupid OS not run it's background batch jobs without popping up a console window visible to the user?! I haven't tried, but is the close button enabled and can a normal user actually kill it if he's quick enough?
Very likely enabled. Console applications run inside
conhost.exe
. It is possible for console applications to find the hosting window handle and modify its window class style to remove buttons from title bar and context menu, but I doubt they do - because in that case they could hide the window altogether, too.
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@TheCPUWizard said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I always wondered about that: can this stupid OS not run it's background batch jobs without popping up a console window visible to the user?! I haven't tried, but is the close button enabled and can a normal user actually kill it if he's quick enough?
If a process does not have a "desktop session" there are a number of things it can not do.
How about hiding the stupid window or moving it a hidden privileged desktop, then?
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@TheCPUWizard said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I always wondered about that: can this stupid OS not run it's background batch jobs without popping up a console window visible to the user?! I haven't tried, but is the close button enabled and can a normal user actually kill it if he's quick enough?
If a process does not have a "desktop session" there are a number of things it can not do.
How about hiding the stupid window or moving it a hidden privileged desktop, then?
By the time the application activates enough for it to do so, it already wasted enough time to be visible. That's what a majority of the "flash" is, initializing the window and preparing it for the launch of the program it's hosting.
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@Tsaukpaetra I believe trying to specify window style when process is created doesn't work with console windows (because it's not launching Console Host directly), but there's no apparent reason it couldn't apply the style as specified by
ShellExecuteEx
... well, apart from breaking every existing application that mistakenly does *cough*That said, console applications should not, in theory, have any idea whether there is any desktop session. Of course, even the system recovery console now has one, but let's not cast away our 35 years of DOS legacy (unless marketing insists).
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@Tsaukpaetra The system should do that before it even appears. Obviously.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
should
Should. Yes. If it did however, you wouldn't even see those "flashes" of the console window to begin with, obviating the problem.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
there's no apparent reason it couldn't apply the style as specified by
ShellExecuteEx
...No reason, except that the problem sits even deeper than that.
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@acrow said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
This is not how a work machine OS is supposed to function!
(closest thing to
:microsoft:
)
: Updates successfully applied.What about ?
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@Atazhaia said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@acrow said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
This is not how a work machine OS is supposed to function!
(closest thing to
:microsoft:
)
: Updates successfully applied.What about ?
I thought we had one... oh well, that's what I get for trying to actually work at the same time...
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Thank you, Ten-nic, for writing your stupid
WPSettings.dat
andIndexerVolumeGuid
nobody ever fucking asked you to, to the removable flash card on every fucking insertion thus making me tear my beard out why the fucking other thing refuses to read the card to update its firmware:cat_shooting_gun.gif:
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HTH HAND FYGMM
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Yes, yes he is
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Yes, yes he is
But does he have a nickel to buy a better OS?
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@Tsaukpaetra Now tell me how to get android to stop puking the Android directory on every drive I plug into it
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@SirTwist said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra Now tell me how to get android to stop puking the Android directory on every drive I plug into it
Format it as NTFS.
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@Tsaukpaetra No, I paid for the Paragon mounter, so they're actually usable on my phone. Before you suggest HFS+, it supports that too. I guess ZFS or BTRFS, but I don't have anything at all that supports those. I can't see creating a dual-boot or vm just to format a drive as something that I can't use to be useful.
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@SirTwist said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I paid for the Paragon mounter,
Turn it off when not in use then?
Look, this isn't a Help thread, I ain't gonna solve your problems for you. You either let yourself be annoyed, or don't.
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@Tsaukpaetra I thought we were having a joke here, because your suggestion was to make it completely useless.
Besides, I don't think the mounter even causes the system to see it to the point android will be able to do start with the Android directory nonsense.
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@SirTwist said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra I thought we were having a joke here, because your suggestion was to make it completely useless.
Ah, you sounded completely serious. Edit: Also, no, it would not be useless, any computer would have no problems using your flash drive.
Besides, I don't think the mounter even causes the system to see it to the point android will be able to do start with the Android directory nonsense.
AFAIK anything that presents itself as a mount will get treated as such, but I'll let you science that out yourself.
Bottom line: You don't want shit touching shit, then don't make them fuck with each other. Anything past that, you suffer the convenience with the annoyances.
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@Tsaukpaetra Well, if you're genuinely interested, keep reading, otherwise skip.
I'm not sure it really counts as a mount point, because that would require root access. It's using something called Storage Access Framework, and any software needs to be written to use it if it wants to access anything mounted by the Paragon software. FX file explorer is. Whatever part of the android os that shits all over usb drives isn't. Additionally, it has to allow adding locations. As I understand it, SAF is what allows the Samsung file browser to access my Samsung files, Google Drive, and Onedrive. Since there is no button to add an arbitrary location, it can't use the Paragon-mounted drives. FX does have such a button, so can.
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@SirTwist said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Whatever part of the android os that shits all over usb drives isn't.
So yeah, not a real mount.
Sounds like a shitty cut-up version of FUSE...
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@SirTwist said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra Well, if you're genuinely interested, keep reading, otherwise skip.
I'm not sure it really counts as a mount point, because that would require root access. It's using something called Storage Access Framework, and any software needs to be written to use it if it wants to access anything mounted by the Paragon software. FX file explorer is. Whatever part of the android os that shits all over usb drives isn't. Additionally, it has to allow adding locations. As I understand it, SAF is what allows the Samsung file browser to access my Samsung files, Google Drive, and Onedrive. Since there is no button to add an arbitrary location, it can't use the Paragon-mounted drives. FX does have such a button, so can.
Wait, why do you need Paragon software to access USB drives? That's native Android functionality...
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@SirTwist said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra Well, if you're genuinely interested, keep reading, otherwise skip.
I'm not sure it really counts as a mount point, because that would require root access. It's using something called Storage Access Framework, and any software needs to be written to use it if it wants to access anything mounted by the Paragon software. FX file explorer is. Whatever part of the android os that shits all over usb drives isn't. Additionally, it has to allow adding locations. As I understand it, SAF is what allows the Samsung file browser to access my Samsung files, Google Drive, and Onedrive. Since there is no button to add an arbitrary location, it can't use the Paragon-mounted drives. FX does have such a button, so can.
Wait, why do you need Paragon software to access USB drives? That's native Android functionality...
Because Windows 10.
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Wait, why do you need Paragon software to access USB drives? That's native Android functionality...
Based on my skimming of the past few posts, it's for NTFS no?
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@hungrier Correct. Also exFAT, if your android version does not support that, and HFS+.
My phone (Note 8) supports exFAT natively, but my el-cheapo Wal-Mart brand tablet does not.
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status (yes, this is in the correct thread!)
Restarting
Sigh. Patch Tue patches were waiting (evidently there's 111 security patches). Reboot, took dogs for a walk. Still on Restarting. Waited a little longer. Read a couple threads. Enough. Here comes the .
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Reboot, took dogs for a walk. Still on Restarting. Waited a little longer. Read a couple threads. Enough. Here comes the .
Just take longer walks with your dog
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
status (yes, this is in the correct thread!)
Restarting
Sigh. Patch Tue patches were waiting (evidently there's 111 security patches). Reboot, took dogs for a walk. Still on Restarting. Waited a little longer. Read a couple threads. Enough. Here comes the .
Oh fucking hell. It won't even boot into the bios now.
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@dcon Press/hold, reboot. Black screen.
Repeat. Fail.
Pull the power plug. Pause. Reinsert. Power - yes!
BIOS: No keyboard
Boots into windows
Bios was right. No keyboard. No USB of any kind.
Power button for normal power down.
rinse/repeat, try different USB ports. Nope. Fucked.
But, hey, it boots! (I wonder if I enabled remote access)Today looks like it's gonna suck. Off to a zoom meeting, take dog to vet in the middle of it so he can lose his balls. Get home and wait for repair man because the washing machine went belly up. What else is gonna go wrong today...
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
(I wonder if I enabled remote access)
Yes!
Logs in, Device Manager, right-click on a dead USB device, 'look for updates'.
It looks. And then the system shuts down. That didn't help... I think the BIOS has somehow disabled USB.Ok, this isn't the help thread, but anyone have a clue how I can get into the bios with no keyboard? Can I access the settings via the OS (since I do have remote access)?
But I'll have to deal with this later. Off to the vet now.
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
but anyone have a clue how I can get into the bios with no keyboard?
Check if your motherboard has a PS/2 port
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@TimeBandit said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
but anyone have a clue how I can get into the bios with no keyboard?
Check if your motherboard has a PS/2 port
Actually it does... I just put out a request on Nextdoor to see if anyone has a keyboard I can borrow. Because I throw my old one out a couple years ago.
edit: And I ordered a USB to PS2 adapter to try that. Arrives Fri.
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@dcon If I hadn't moved, I'd let you borrow mine, but now it's a little inconvenient to get it to you.
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
edit: And I ordered a USB to PS2 adapter to try that. Arrives Fri.
If it looks like this:
it may not work, unless your keyboard is old enough to support PS/2 natively. "True" USB->PS/2 converters exist, but they're more expensive.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
edit: And I ordered a USB to PS2 adapter to try that. Arrives Fri.
If it looks like this:
it may not work, unless your keyboard is old enough to support PS/2 natively. "True" USB->PS/2 converters exist, but they're more expensive.
Well darn it then. That's what I ordered (cheap, only $6). And the keyboard is an Microsoft 4000. So, I continue to hope for a neighbor...
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I found a page which claims the Microsoft 4000 keyboard supports both PS/2 and USB:
So, assuming that's true and MS didn't reuse the same name for different versions, you should be good.
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@Zerosquare A neighbor had a keyboard. I can boot! The bad thing, according to the bios, usb is enabled. Something must have gone bad on the motherboard. sigh.
Looks like the only USB recognized is the hub. WIndows beeboops when I plug that in/out. But nothing else.
Oh, and I did reflash the bios with the latest version.
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Have you tried clearing the BIOS settings by taking out the battery for a few minutes (or using the "CMOS clear" jumper, if you can find it)? Sometimes, that cures problems with motherboards.
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FWIW: if anyone needs a PS/2 keyboard in a future where stores have reopened, you can probably get one from a thrift store for $5 or less.
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
edit: And I ordered a USB to PS2 adapter to try that. Arrives Fri.
If it looks like this:
it may not work, unless your keyboard is old enough to support PS/2 natively. "True" USB->PS/2 converters exist, but they're more expensive.
Well darn it then. That's what I ordered (cheap, only $6). And the keyboard is an Microsoft 4000. So, I continue to hope for a neighbor...
When I built my new computer a few months ago I tried to install Windows 7 but couldn't get the installer to recognize my mouse or keyboard. The new motherboard has a PS/2 connector so I tried one of those adapters, but it didn't work. Now I know why. I eventually gave up and installed Windows 10.
In the course of trying to install Windows 7 I came across an article that explains some of the retarded fuckery going on:
USB 1.0 ports used to be handled by an OHCI or UHCI controller. USB 2.0 ports were handled by an EHCI controller with an OHCI and UHCI compatibility overlay for older operating systems, and USB 3.0 ports were handled by an xHCI controller with EHCI and UHCI compatibility overlays.
When Intel and AMD developed their new chipsets to support Kaby Lake and Ryzen, those compatibility overlays were removed. We now only have xHCI, even for USB 2 ports. But Windows 7 doesn't have xHCI drivers, so none of your USB ports will work until you install an xHCI driver.
But wait a minute. If I plug a thumbdrive into any USB port of my computer my computer's BIOS recognizes the thumbdrive. And, I can boot from a thumbdrive and load the Windows 7 installer. What's going on here? If my computer's BIOS can recognize the USB ports why can't Windows 7?
As it turns out, there is a design flaw in the Windows 7 installer.
The Windows 7 installer looks for OHCI, UHCI and EHCI devices, but on newer computers it doesn't find any. So the Windows 7 installer decides that you have no USB ports at all and drops the "legacy device support" provided by the BIOS, and none of your USB ports work.
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
But wait a minute. If I plug a thumbdrive into any USB port of my computer my computer's BIOS recognizes the thumbdrive. And, I can boot from a thumbdrive and load the Windows 7 installer. What's going on here? If my computer's BIOS can recognize the USB ports why can't Windows 7?
As it turns out, there is a design flaw in the Windows 7 installer.
The Windows 7 installer looks for OHCI, UHCI and EHCI devices, but on newer computers it doesn't find any. So the Windows 7 installer decides that you have no USB ports at all and drops the "legacy device support" provided by the BIOS, and none of your USB ports work.I have a strong suspicion this isn't entirely correct. Yes, W7 installer can boot from xHCI-connected drive and then render itself unusable. But it's not like there's an intentional logic to ignore working USB if no known driver is found. Rather, as is the standard for over 25 years now in all operating systems, early in the boot process the BIOS driver layer gets disabled entirely and the system only communicates with devices directly through native drivers alone, to avoid any overhead from BIOS.
TL;DR: it doesn't use the working BIOS driver because the way boot process works, it has no way to know there's a working BIOS driver.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Have you tried clearing the BIOS settings by taking out the battery for a few minutes (or using the "CMOS clear" jumper, if you can find it)? Sometimes, that cures problems with motherboards.
No, but considering flashing the new bios did clear settings...
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Have you tried clearing the BIOS settings by taking out the battery for a few minutes (or using the "CMOS clear" jumper, if you can find it)? Sometimes, that cures problems with motherboards.
No, but considering flashing the new bios did clear settings...
Normally flashing doesn't actually clear settings though.
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@Gąska yeah. Did you know? You can Frankenstein a Windows 7 install.wim into the setup image and it will install Windows 7 just fine, but after reboot if you're missing drivers...
Ask me how I found out... 😉
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Normally flashing doesn't actually clear settings though.
It does on my motherboard.