We searched Medline, Embase and Cochrane for the phrase bots are not funny
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I have my dignity, damn it.
I can no longer resist inviting @Zoidberg to comment on that.
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Zoidberg is afoot!
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The bots are more entertaining than most of the posters here.
Blakeyrat's anti-bot rageface is his most amusing work to date.
Edit: on reading all the way to the end of this steaming turd of a thread, I'll stick with that assertion while noting that blakey's anti-bot rageface is about 1% as amusing as Zoidberg.
Filed under could do better if he applied himself
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It's possible what you're saying is that you still don't understand how you ended up hurting accalia in the first place, and, not knowing, can't be sure it won't happen again.
If blakey's running true to form, you've just provided an excuse to wheel out "which fucking shoulder alien told you I was asking for help" again...
Filed under depression, bed, made, lie
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Some people go into this forum all-in. Reveal their RL details, feel like they made friends, like they are a part of community etc. The kind of stuff @codinghorror imagines every forum should be.
Others are more playacting. Interacting on a purely intellectual level. Enjoying the freedom of being an argumentative dick they would never be in RL.
@accalia (and @Arantor, for example) are in the former category. @blakeyrat (and me, kind of) are in the later. It's obvious there will occasionally be clashes between the two groups. Especially since the balance has shifted over to the "community" camp since moving over to discourse.
IMO both sides should find some kind of middle ground.
@accalia, you should realize blakey's words don't mean he hates you or wants you to feel bad. Just ignore them, and tomorrow you can be buddies again in a different thread. That's the way old TDWTF forums worked (except when blakey rage-quit in the meantime
).@blakeyrat, you should realize not everyone has a thick skin and can parry your abuse with their own. You should probably try to tone down your approach with people who are not into the troll game.
That said, it IS tricky to know who will forget your rant 5 minutes after it's over and who will need to see a therapist. Best practice, maybe, is take this into PM convo and hash it out directly with the other person, instead of making a drama thread. It's what both sides should have done a long time ago.
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This post is deleted!
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@Intercourse said:
My mother was married 7 times in her lifetime. She always claimed that she could not find a good man, etc. That is all bullshit though. She was the problem, because she was a massive bitch.
I'm sorry, but I just can't resist this cheapshot:If your mother was a bitch, then what does that make you? ;)
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I missed it too, but I do remember the original post disappearing into an area it was inaccessible for a couple of days shortly after the article came out. Presumably related to this incident.
It was. While I waited for someone to remove the image from the server.
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I don't think it's reasonable to be a cunt to people in the name of humour and maintaining an internet personality.
I don't think the old forums were a place where you could just pick someone and be a cunt to them for something until you got bored of doing it.
I don't think the tone of these forums has changed significantly since the move. We still have passionate debates that end up turning into economics debates because boomzilla.
The ideal outcome of this forum being pulled isn't going to happen. You need to accept and internalise your acceptance of it (you have accepted it, you are still here even though it's obviously never going away). Every so often I see this shit go too far and stray from "being an objectionable dick" to "being an out and out cunt to an individual" and only the first of those is OK.
This is not the first time I have said this: Stop being a cunt. I might have said stop being a dick last time. Or stop being a fucking dick. One of those should probably show up on discosearch. Anyway, Stop.
That all said, it seems like it's maybe all stopped anyway. at least as far as I can see from the duration since last post if that is anything to go by.
Normally I just make dick/innapropriate/ridiculous promiscuity jokes. Because they are hilarious. Sometimes I take that hat off though. And wear my ass for a hat instead. For sexual stimulation. Because it feels good. Until the next morning. When I have a bad back and shit in my hair. It hurts to shower.
anyway, the point I am making is it's not cool to throw others under the funny bus unless they invite you to do so with self deprecating intent.
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Normally I just make dick/innapropriate/ridiculous promiscuity jokes. Because they are hilarious.
I gave you a like for the rest of your post, even though I disagree with this statement.
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>algorythmics:
Normally I just make dick/innapropriate/ridiculous promiscuity jokes. Because they are hilarious.I gave you a like for the rest of your post, even though I disagree with this statement.
Farts are still funny though, surely?
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blakey seems to be that kid that needs to be the center of attention, and will throw a hissy fit or smash a glass just for that reason alone.
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I gave you a like for the rest of your post, even though I disagree with this statement.
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That's what everybody does on this forum! I'm not the first person to do that here; I'm not even the 20th!
That's a terrible excuse for poor behaviour. And it's worse because it's not even right.
On the old forum you were amusing and entertaining. You were good-naturedly sparring with acknowledged trolls. Blakeyrants were funny to read, the swearing was appropriate to the persona, and most of the time what you said was true.
Now the forums have changed, so have you. Your persona has become bitter and spiteful. The good-natured ribbing has been replaced with vitriol. You've become an unrepentant toxic arsehole, a bully, and you blame your victims for their abuse.
I'm not the first to point this out, probably not even the 20th, but you need to examine your recent behaviour with honesty and the responses to that behaviour instead of immediately going with "sticks and stones" or "I can't control what you think of me!" knee-jerk reactions. If after that examination you wish to continue your current toxic behaviour, go right ahead, but don't be surprised when people don't meekly accept it.
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Right, but sticks and stones, remember? I've mentioned it like 4 times in this thread; it's a lesson everybody learned in kindergarten... right? Am I crazy?
Sorry guys, but I agree with Blakey. Part of what makes this community special to me (or, at least, used to...), is that I can interact with people who I share interests with, who I can rant together with, but most importantly, who won't descend into a spiral of drama after a few mean words.
That was the whole shtick. It's like that stereotypical manly friendship - where you get into an argument, fists go up, and a day later you're together drinking beer and laughing like nothing happened. Now, apparently, we need to tiptoe around people in order to not hurt their feelings. And, to be honest, that's not what I'm expecting from these forums.
I don't think the old forums were a place where you could just pick someone and be a cunt to them for something until you got bored of doing it.
No it wasn't, and it's also not what's happening. I still have some reading to do, but from what I can tell, it's just drama all over. It just used to be common sense that you could call an idiot an idiot and not receive a therapy bill a few days later. Because folks had basic social skills, such as being able to cope with insults and not calling Mommy.
It's like telling George Carlin to be a bit more politically correct.
but you need to examine your recent behaviour with honesty
Same goes for y'all. Because I hate to be the advocate here, but you're ganging up on Blakey as if he's the Hitler reincarnated, driving you all to madness.
tl;dr: STOP THE FUCKING DRAMA.
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That was the whole shtick. It's like that stereotypical manly friendship - where you get into an argument, fists go up, and a day later you're together drinking beer and laughing like nothing happened.
Yeah, except what Blakey's doing feels like he just told you he fucked your sister during the fight. Generally, you don't go right back to being best buds.
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Yeah, except what Blakey's doing feels like he just told you he fucked your sister during the fight. Generally, you don't go right back to being best buds.
The whole monuments devoted to "I screwed your mom" jokes disagree with you.
Filed under: unless those are different things, paging dr. freud
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The whole monuments devoted to "I screwed your mom" jokes disagree with you.
Ok, ex-girlfriend, then. Bro code states exes are off-limits.
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Bro code states exes are off-limits.
What, for actual fucking, or just the insults? And if the former, the mothers are okay?
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What, for actual fucking, or just the insults? And if the former, the mothers are okay?
Actual fucking, which is why saying you're doing it is bad. You brought mothers into it, I mentioned sisters.
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It's like telling George Carlin to be a bit more politically correct
George Carlin was insightful and funny, much like old @blakeyrat. New @blakeyrat is more like Bill Hicks putting down a heckler. It's not pleasant to watch.
tl;dr: STOP THE
FUCKINGGRATUITOUS DRAMA.There's bullshit "drama" like at high school, then there's drama that comes from genuine conflict.
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That was the whole shtick. It's like that stereotypical manly friendship - where you get into an argument, fists go up, and a day later you're together drinking beer and laughing like nothing happened. Now, apparently, we need to tiptoe around people in order to not hurt their feelings. And, to be honest, that's not what I'm expecting from these forums.
I'm normally not in this boat -- but I agree here: my experience lurking on CS basically said that the forum was "friendly trolls playwrestling".
I still have some reading to do, but from what I can tell, it's just drama all over. It just used to be common sense that you could call an idiot an idiot and not receive a therapy bill a few days later. Because folks had basic social skills, such as being able to cope with insults and not calling Mommy.
I agree, up to the point where people stop being able to express their point cogently. And that is the heart of @accalia's complaint about @blakeyrat's rants -- he's lost coherence, and has gone into pure opinion-based emotional rantmode (if you can't already tell from the swearing).It's like telling George Carlin to be a bit more politically correct.
There's a point where you wind up undermining your own argument with an excess of anger on your part -- and that's a problem, because that either triggers:- point and laugh at the raging idiot -- which can be fantastic catharsis for a community subjected to a true outsider-troll, but tends to simply lead to more rage when an insider-troll is making this mistake
or - Emotional overreactions from the other side, who winds up being blinded by the emotional expressions of the raging troll. In other words -- the classical drama-bomb.
Same goes for y'all. Because I hate to be the advocate here, but you're ganging up on Blakey as if he's the Hitler reincarnated, driving you all to madness.
I'm personally of the viewpoint that if I was a forum mod, I'd follow after Blakey and insert [citation needed] tags into his posts -- although I have needed some of those myself, I at least have some idea of when and where to look stuff up, or put an "In My Opinion" sign on it at least.tl;dr: STOP THE FUCKING DRAMA.
Yes, and blakey should set a better example of how to debate things -- it'd make his rants far more potent debate-wise and far less hurtful at the same time.George Carlin was insightful and funny, much like old @blakeyrat. New @blakeyrat is more like Bill Hicks putting down a heckler. It's not pleasant to watch.
Yeah -- Carlin may have been quite politically incorrect, but he was insightful, and knew how to stay on the right side of the "don't get too angry to argue" line, from what I know of him at least.
- point and laugh at the raging idiot -- which can be fantastic catharsis for a community subjected to a true outsider-troll, but tends to simply lead to more rage when an insider-troll is making this mistake
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Yes, and blakey should set a better example of how to debate things -- it'd make his rants far more potent debate-wise and far less hurtful at the same time.
That's the worst part--when he's not foaming at the mouth, he's one of the most interesting posters here.
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That's the worst part--when he's not foaming at the mouth, he's one of the most interesting posters here.
And because he exists solely for my entertainment, he must conform to my wishes!
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There's a point where you wind up undermining your own argument with an excess of anger on your part -- and that's a problem
When the anger comes along with at least an attempt at humor and / or creativity, it's great. Even if the anger is real.
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And because he exists solely for my entertainment, he must conform to my wishes!
I knew you would understand!
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In some ways I'm kind of glad I missed this shit with my own shit going on, and in other ways I wish I hadn't.
I've had run-ins with blakey as mentioned, until three things happened.
Firstly, whether it was intentional or accidental, I don't know, but in the aftermath of that, blakey toned it down towards me. Whether it was empathy, understanding, or just realising of a line crossing, I don't know, but I had the distinct impression of a change of tone - and more recently when my stuff started flaring up, he actually gave me some pretty good advice, even if it was wrapped up in the persona a bit.
Secondly, I realised it was a persona. I think that happened the first time I actually sat at watched one of the Robots in the News videos, and I think it was the one where blakeyrat was messing with the 'follows the shape of your face/mouth movements in EverQuest(?)' video and I realised the persona really was that. It wasn't him being a complete douche because he is a miserable fuck the whole time, he was doing it deliberately.
Thirdly... I realised I do the exact same thing. There is another forum out there - you guys mostly know which one it is by now if you followed what I've been saying (haha). There are people there that are scared of me. Called me domineering. The phrase 'legendarily arrogant' has been said too. And you guys know this is not how I am naturally. It's all a front. I do exactly the same as blakeyrat does, only on a smaller scale and I don't go out of my way to put up a complete wall of douchebaggery, but I do put up a wall of hardass. It's far from perfect, but it's totally a self defence layer.
I'm not going to condone blakeyrat's attitude or persona - that's his business. But I think I understand it. I think I get why it is the way it is. Why he is the way he is. And while some find this idea repugnant (why does blakeyrat need my understanding? answer: he doesn't), the reality is, it does affect how I interact with him, to the point where I haven't really interacted with him that much, simply because I have nothing to say that would change anything.
But under the attitude, under the bullshit, there is someone there that is competent, capable and creative.
On the other hand, people like @accalia and me, we are not... quite... so good at putting up such walls as self defence and people get in through the cracks and really get under our skin. You'd think we'd be proofed against it by now, but the reality is that we're not. And what feels like being beaten over the heads with 'suck it up' is not a fun community experience.
This gets back to the bigger questions: what is this place supposed to be and what are the community expectations?
I avoided joining CS precisely because of the consistent vibe of trolls-playfighting. Here did not have that feeling, the community was united by its consistent dislike of Discourse - but as its foibles have been smoothed out, or worked around - it's gone back towards how CS kind of felt to me, which is why I was kind of reticent about coming back. It wasn't out and out hatred, it started out as 'not good enough' combined with 'I don't fit in', and while that lessened, it was because I'd felt the tone change where the idea of coming back was kind of 'meh' to me for a while. It just didn't feel as fun for me.
I understand the notion that this community effectively operates as a lawless wilderness - but even a land without laws has some kind of code of ethics going on. Just because people can be complete dickweeds to each other does not necessarily follow that they must. And to a point, hiding behind this 'because it's allowed' is no defence.
Honestly, to me, blakeyrat is not even the worst for this in this community, he's just the loudest. There are people I find worse for being dickweeds solely because they believe they can.
The funny part... the more I think about it, the more I just find it sad. Not because I'm offended by it, but because the more I think about it, the more I realise that they're only doing themselves a disservice. I know how much damage I do to myself being the way my persona is elsewhere, and that's a fraction of what some people here do.
Maybe that's the real lesson here... don't be a douche despite being able, be better than that. (Yes, I know about the 'you're better than that' debate. Here I feel it is warranted)
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Maybe that's the real lesson here... don't be a douche despite being able, be better than that. (Yes, I know about the 'you're better than that' debate. Here I feel it is warranted)
What about when being a douche is absolutely hilarious? I wouldn't enjoy/am not smart enough to be an epic troll myself but laugh my ass off at the likes of MorbiusWilters (who was FAR harsher than Blakeyrat ever was)After all, it's the internet, and there's a good chance that most of us are bots, dogs or dogbots :)
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It is possible to be a douche without being irredeemable about it. Morbs was sometimes in that category. Blakeyrat, of late, a lot less so.
As for your latter assertion, I'm a Mebert. And I don't use the French pronunciation.
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I think one of the reasons that I can interact with so many people and rarely have issues is that my "management" position that I've assumed with my running club requires me to deal with SO many people and be completely impartial. Basically, since the club is 100% volunteer, any sort of needless complaining is frowned upon. I like to have fun with it, to the point where we now have a butthurtreport@domain.com email address for complaints. We do address real issues, but I've gotten a really thick skin to the point where it takes a lot to unnerve me. But more importantly, I know how to not create drama...
I wish that more people in life, and more importantly, here, could be more like that.
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Secondly, I realised it was a persona.
So, you do get the concept of a persona, of not behaving here quite like people do in real life.
There are people I find worse for being dickweeds solely because they believe they can.
And then you proceed to call us all hapless dicks.
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No, I get the concept of a persona. The problem is that there are people that I don't think are actually wielding personas.
Like you for example. I don't think you're wielding much of a persona, I actually believe you are that arrogant and intolerable in real life.
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Like you for example. I don't think you're wielding much of a persona, I actually believe you are that arrogant and intolerable in real life.
I should probably get seriously offended and rant for two pages about how you have absolutely no idea who I am, don't know me at all, and if anyone is being insulting here, it's you.
But I don't care too much what you think of me. See? Easy.
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Thanks, I guess?
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Thanks, I guess?
My pleasure.
Look, the point is, stop making drama. Laugh it off. Shake it off. Whip your hair. Stick it to teh haterz, or whatever today's catchphrase is.
Be like @ben_lubar. He's been the butt of every joke and rant imaginable, some of them harsh even by the standards of such intolerable bastard like me (sorry, Ben). And yet, I've never seen the guy making a huge fuss about it - quite the opposite.
And, to boot, he admitted to being autistic. You guys are worse than a person with a serious, diagnosed, medical condition in that matter.
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TIL I learned showing a bit of empathy for people might be causing drama.
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Why should people have to shut up and tolerate things they dislike just to satisfy some people's need to act inappropriately? When exactly did we establish as a community standard that hateful vitriol takes precedence over treating each other like human beings?
I limit my interactions with people I find unpleasant on this forum and generally let them do their thing. This strategy has worked to me as I am not exactly a prolific contributor in the first place.
For some of the more active folks, avoidance might not be achievable and so things are up for debate at this point.
I for one do not think that "I want to behave like a moody teenager" is a valid reason to infringe on the right of others to have a nice time while visiting this community. Not that I am even advocating rules here, but what happened wasn't okay and I am not okay with trivializing it either.
And I don't feel that the offended and abused party has to "shrug it off". Surely, we are decent enough here to talk about things like grown ups when the need arises.
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TIL I learned showing a bit of empathy for people might be causing drama.
Not much drama to be had in apathy.
Whatever.
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Life's easier if you learn to shrug it off. Life often sucks, if you let people rile you up it sucks even worse. I'm not in control of other people, but I am in control of my own reaction towards other people and that's half the battle.
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I disagree.
If you just shut up and take it you will always stay a victim.
I for one am tired of taking people's crap on a continuous basis and keeping quiet about it just because it's convenient for them. And I don't see why others should be told not to stand up for themselves just because it spares us some "drama."
I guess if this is how this community operates these days it's time to reconsider if sticking around is worth it.
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I don't know, I don't particularly ever feel like a victim. Most people learn they can't rile me up and quit trying. It gets even harder for them to rile me up if I know that's what they're intention is. Then they're the ones who get frustrated, not me.
To be clear, I'm talking about real life, not forums, though my attitude is similar in both.
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TIL
I learnedFTFY for you.
showing a bit of empathy for people might be causing drama.
First of all, that's not an argument. That's just you saying "well excuuuuuuse me, Princess".
Second - you don't even come up too empathetic to me. You come up as a white knight in shining armor, rescuing a damsel in distress from a bunch of ravenous trolls, while also preaching the word of $deity to them. Except the trolls don't really care about the gospel, and the princess has wandered under the bridge where trolls lived for years, built a tent, and now is complaining that the place is swampy and sorta stinks.
Again - you're telling George Carlin to be more PC. Or AC/DC to turn that shit down a little and start playing jazz. Can they do that? Probably; but there are millions of people who go to AC/DC concerts exactly because they're loud and don't employ 12-tone technique in 7/4.
Why should people have to shut up and tolerate things they dislike just to satisfy some people's need to act inappropriately?
Why should people have to shut up in a place where they never had to, just to please some people who came here and try to impose their own rules?
It's like a kid getting into a football team, and then complaining that somebody tackled him. In a good school, he'll be told to either learn the rules of the game, or not play. In a bad school, the teachers will hold a hours-long meeting about brutality in sports and instead decide to send all boys to dance lessons.
You want to send us all to dance lessons.
When exactly did we establish as a community standard that hateful vitriol takes precedence over treating each other like human beings?
...never? Even as far as this comunity goes or was going, I'm probably coming off now as the most insensitive prick here. (Oh well.) The discussion went basically like that:
- people started abusing bots in Blakey's thread
- Blakey got pissed off and told @accalia to shut off the bots, and being Blakey, he put it in a few stern words
- @accalia got their panties in a bunch, basically saying "you can't make me, because you're not a mod", picking on Blakey's F-bombs, and generally refusing to do anything about the abuse, despite being a developer themselves and it being ridiculously easy to limit the bots to certain threads.
- now Blakey's an asshole, I'm an asshole, and @accalia is a fucking damsel in distress, supported by a legion of white knights who apparently didn't get the memo.
I limit my interactions with people I find unpleasant on this forum and generally let them do their thing. This strategy has worked to me as I am not exactly a prolific contributor in the first place.
There ya go.
For some of the more active folks, avoidance might not be achievable
...wait, what? Not achievable? Are they held at gunpoint and forced to read my posts and interact with me? Or is it simply a case of "I'm here, and now you play by my rules, or I'll call Mommy"?
I for one do not think that "I want to behave like a moody teenager" is a valid reason to infringe on the right of others to have a nice time while visiting this community.
I, on the other hand, do not think that "I'm a delicate flower" is one.
Not that I am even advocating rules here, but what happened wasn't okay and I am not okay with trivializing it either.
It was very much not okay. To Blakey.
If you just shut up and take it you will always stay a victim.
Again - playing football and complaining about being tackled. You're not forced to "take it", but you're not supposed to force everyone to play by your rules.
I guess if this is how this community operates these days it's time to reconsider if sticking around is worth it.
Please do y'all. You're all acting as if threatening to leave is going to make everyone pat you on the back and say "we'll be nice now, we promise, we're so so sorry, please don't leave".
People come and go. Some relationships don't work out. Sometimes it's better to let go. Those are a sixth-grader level life lessons.
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I don't know, I don't particularly ever feel like a victim. Most people learn they can't rile me up and quit trying. It gets even harder for them to rile me up if I know that's what they're intention is. Then they're the ones who get frustrated, not me.
To be clear, I'm talking about real life, not forums, though my attitude is similar in both.
What's odd is that the person that riles me up the most is........me.
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Am I especially empathetic? Not so much here. Mostly out of self preservation. Did I show a bit of empathy? Yes. Can you tell the difference? I don't know. I'm still not convinced you actually know what that is because I hear a lot of 'waaaah this place isn't what it used to be and all the new people are ruining this perfect place where I can share how miserable I am'.
Are we forced to interact with you? The answer is "conditionally yes" - all the time you interject your opinion in debates, wanted or not, the rest of us are interacting on some level simply by having to either consciously or unconsciously ignore your bile.
So the choice you are presenting me with is trying to ignore you or choosing not to participate. Unfortunately you are prevalent just enough that every time I think I'm not going to encounter more of your bile, I find it right there.
I don't know about you, but I used to like coming here, and judging by some of the conversations I've had, other people like me coming here - but dealing with you just stops it being fun because with you it appears that moderation of attitude is not a thing that can be a thing. That you have to exercise your 'right' to be an asshat because you can, because it's working for you on some level.
You know what's really funny? You're actually proving @codinghorror right on this issue. You want an insular community that actively discourages new people coming in unless they can handle your level of vitriol as opposed to being broader-minded about what could happen with not being quite such a hardass about every fucking thing out there.
If I thought WTDWTF was going to become CS, I wouldn't have joined up. I joined up precisely because it didn't seem like it was going to become CS and because it felt like a place where I could actually be part of something that felt meaningful. Kindred spirits and all that.
I always thought a community was the product of what its members wanted it to be but the loudest voices are telling me this is what they want. May you receive it in abundance. Just don't be surprised to be complaining when the only people you hear are the like-minded people all bitching about this place afterwards when all the new blood has gone and you're recycling the same thoughts over and over because you have nothing else to talk about except the good old days.
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and generally refusing to do anything about the abuse, despite being a developer themselves and it being ridiculously easy to limit the bots to certain threads.
Actually, @accalia is attempting to modify the bots so they'll avoid any topics that @blakeyrat creates. That was her idea, and she's postponed a more interesting project that @PJH brought to her to get the modification done. She's also limiting the scope of the dice rolling feature so it can only be used in certain scenarios. Again, of her own volition.
As for limiting the bots to certain threads, there are quite a few members that don't seem to like the idea of restricting the bots to the testing threads.
It was very much not okay. To Blakey.
I'll agree with that. But he shouldn't have lashed out so severely at @accalia when she wasn't the one abusing the bots.
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Well, the entire population of this forum is basically trolls. If you don't come in with the assumption that people don't mean what they say and are just trying to have fun, you're gonna have a bad time.
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A lot of it has to do with having a tone of conversation that is appropriate to the person. @accalia is not a "damsel in distress", but she also does not troll others. She is the Switzerland of the forum. Have an appropriate tone when talking to her and don't just sit there and curse and rant and rave over something that she was not even doing. Don't troll her, don't abuse her and don't harass her.
It is all about being appropriate per person. Not to say we need to walk on egg shells, far from it. Just consider who you are talking to when you open your mouth or type on a keyboard. As an example, I use the word "fuck" like a comma. I enjoy cursing, I see no reason that certain combinations of syllables should be considered offensive. That being said, when my religious as hell mother-in-law is in my home, I tone it down. The occasional "fuck" still comes out, and I do not apologize when it happens, but I do censor myself somewhat when she is around just as a matter of being polite and having appropriate conversations.
If some of the logic in this conversation were used in real life, it would be like me talking like a New Yorker in front of someone's child, they ask me to tone it down a bit as there is a toddler around and then I start screaming, "FUCK YOU AND FUCK YOUR CHILD!! IT IS YOUR FAULT IF YOU ARE OFFENDED!!"...and then I took a shit on their rug.
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Most people learn they can't rile me up and quit trying.
The problem is, of course, that you-know-who is a stubborn mule who won't quit.
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