Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?
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https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-security-chief-ie-is-not-a-browser-so-stop-using-it-as-your-default/
Microsoft security chief: IE is not a browser, so stop using it as your default
Internet Explorer is a 'compatibility solution' and should only be used selectively, warns Microsoft exec.
tldr: They decided to do their own thang with IE6. They pushed it HEAVILY on everyone. (This is the anti-trust thing). So lotso companies made shit to work in IE6. But then IE7 came out, and if they did things the right way, it'd break IE6. So they added modes for IE6 and IE7 rendering (which is also different in the Intranet zone). IE8 came out, and if they implemented anything new, it'd break IE7 and IE6.
So on and so forth until IE11.
They're not saying you should use Edge (because the last time Microsoft said which browser people should use, they got rightfully sued), but it's between the lines there.
Also, Edge is soon to be a just-another-reskinned-Chrome.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Also, Edge is soon to be a just-another-reskinned-Chrome.
Which will decrease battery life and increase memory usage. Great.
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@dfdub said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Also, Edge is soon to be a just-another-reskinned-Chrome.
Which will decrease battery life and increase memory usage.
It won't because no-one uses Edge anyway.
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@loopback0 Technically I think it's my default PDF viewer.
I'd associate them with Firefox, because it should be able to preview PDFs, but usually it bizarrely insists on downloading them instead.
Works well enough, I guess.
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@loopback0 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@dfdub said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Also, Edge is soon to be a just-another-reskinned-Chrome.
Which will decrease battery life and increase memory usage.
It won't because no-one uses Edge anyway.
The hour tracking software I use at work only functions properly in Edge for me. In Chrome and Firefox it breaks in weird and different ways that make it near impossible for me to use. And nobody else but me has this issue. I sure hope it magically fixes itself before Edge switches to Chromium.
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@Lorne-Kates To my dismay IE is the only browser that works with Google Drive, when you attempt to download the .WAR file and Google Drive helpfully try to expand it for you and failed, then show you the plain "download anyway" link. In Edge, Chrome and Firefox clicking on that link will just reload the page without downloading anything.
Very strange behavior.
Until Google Drive fixed it I can't possibly stop using IE.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Also, Edge is soon to be a just-another-reskinned-Chrome.
You mean it's another reskinned Safari, since that's what Chrome is.
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@Anonymous-Throwaway said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Also, Edge is soon to be a just-another-reskinned-Chrome.
You mean it's another reskinned Safari, since that's what Chrome is.
You mean it's another skinned Konqueror, since that's what Safari is.
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@brie Firefox as packaged by Ubuntu does usually show PDFs in-browser. Sometimes, it downloads them. I suppose it is a format issue. Is there such a thing as a "non streamable" PDF? Like, you have to fully download it to view it?
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@admiral_p If my brief research is accurate,
Content-Type: application/force-download
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@kazitor Or
Content-Disposition: attachment.I hate when some of our in-house tools force download on plain text files.
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@kazitor said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Content-Type: application/force-download
Content-Type: application/force-inconvenience
=D
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Anonymous-Throwaway said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Also, Edge is soon to be a just-another-reskinned-Chrome.
You mean it's another reskinned Safari, since that's what Chrome is.
You mean it's another skinned Konqueror, since that's what Safari is.
You mean it's another skinned WorldWideWeb, since that's what every (graphical) web browser is. Checkmate, browserists!
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@brie Firefox as packaged by Ubuntu does usually show PDFs in-browser. Sometimes, it downloads them. I suppose it is a format issue. Is there such a thing as a "non streamable" PDF? Like, you have to fully download it to view it?
Yes and no. Cache folder is a thing, and the browser should know how to use it properly. If it has to be downloaded, a PDF viewer should do that seamlessly, and then it should be able to view the PDF anyway.
@kazitor said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@admiral_p If my brief research is accurate,
Content-Type: application/force-downloadI think
Content-Disposition: attachmentwould also trigger it. I would argue that PDF viewers should ignore those headers, though. There's a "download" button from the preview anyway.The same goes for just about any other content type. Images are the same way. At the least, when Firefox pops up the dialog asking whether you want to save or open the file, one of the options (if Firefox can display it natively) should be "preview it in Firefox", which has the effect of just ignoring the download header.
Actually now that I've checked it seems that they made Firefox preview local PDFs. Last time I tried it, Firefox insisted on treating them as if they were forced-download.
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@cheong said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates To my dismay IE is the only browser that works with Google Drive, when you attempt to download the .WAR file and Google Drive helpfully try to expand it for you and failed, then show you the plain "download anyway" link. In Edge, Chrome and Firefox clicking on that link will just reload the page without downloading anything.
Very strange behavior.
Until Google Drive fixed it I can't possibly stop using IE.
You know there's a Download option before you try to preview it, right? Right-click on the file and select Download. Or Ctrl-click to select multiple files, and then select Download from the menu and it'll automatically zip them first.
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@admiral_p said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Is there such a thing as a "non streamable" PDF? Like, you have to fully download it to view it?
Yes. By default, the PDF format stores all the content objects (text blobs, images, etc.) before the metadata needed to organize them into a coherent document. And then it adds "incremental updates" afterwards, which is just "more content objects and metadata". You need to read and parse the whole document before you can render it, and you also need to revise the structure as you go along, because revision #5 can say "Soooo, that thing you thought was the leading paragraph on page 1? Mkay, it's now part of page 752."
To get a more stream-friendly PDF, you need to "linearize" it when saving, which puts some of that metadata closer to the beginning of the file, so rendering can start sooner.
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@levicki said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Safari, it's the only sane browser left
That's the one that thinks the only part of the URL anyone really wants to see at a glance is the root domain, right?
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@levicki said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
if that is the only complaint about Safari
it isn't
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@brie said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@cheong said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates To my dismay IE is the only browser that works with Google Drive, when you attempt to download the .WAR file and Google Drive helpfully try to expand it for you and failed, then show you the plain "download anyway" link. In Edge, Chrome and Firefox clicking on that link will just reload the page without downloading anything.
Very strange behavior.
Until Google Drive fixed it I can't possibly stop using IE.
You know there's a Download option before you try to preview it, right? Right-click on the file and select Download. Or Ctrl-click to select multiple files, and then select Download from the menu and it'll automatically zip them first.
Tried an old download link again and the "Preview" function works now. The download function on that page also works.
Will see if the link works next time they email me the website update.
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@cheong said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Will see if the link works next time they email me the website update.
Ahem
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@levicki said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Gribnit Don't hold out on me. I know, make a list, I hear those are popular. Like "10 things I hate about Safari", "5 things you wish you knew you cannot do in Safari", etc.
How about "there's no platform both Edge and Safari run on"?
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@levicki said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
So maybe Microsoft should tell us which browser to use?
@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
the last time Microsoft said which browser people should use, they got rightfully sued
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@swayde said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@cheong said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Will see if the link works next time they email me the website update.
Ahem
Checked yesterday that even old links to previous WAR file that could not be previewed before can be viewed without problem now. Maybe they have fixed it these 2 months (Pretty sure it still not working during the first half of January).
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@topspin said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
How about "there's no platform both Edge and Safari run on"?
Tell that to this guy.
Safari 5.1.7 on Windows 10 isn't Supported Yet? · Issue #10086 · meteor/meteor
Meteor Version: 1.6.1.1 Operating System: Windows 10 Web Browser: Safari 5.1.7 for Windows You can directly open my WebApp at http://dev.web.klikchat.com and then open the web browser's console...
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@levicki said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@topspin said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
How about "there's no platform both Edge and Safari run on"?
Who needs Edge and the ad-shoveling, for-profit personal data mining, butt-ugly, full of bugs platform it came with?
Also, isn't safari pretty much the new IE of the browsers in that it is out of date, broken and slow to the point of web devs having to write special code just for Safari?
I don't do web dev so I don't know, that's just what I've been told. I tried using apple products for a year, but I really didn't like them so I jumped ship so I haven't got much interaction with the browser itself as a user either.
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@Carnage said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@levicki said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@topspin said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
How about "there's no platform both Edge and Safari run on"?
Who needs Edge and the ad-shoveling, for-profit personal data mining, butt-ugly, full of bugs platform it came with?
Also, isn't safari pretty much the new IE of the browsers in that it is out of date, broken and slow to the point of web devs having to write special code just for Safari?
I don't do web dev so I don't know, that's just what I've been told. I tried using apple products for a year, but I really didn't like them so I jumped ship so I haven't got much interaction with the browser itself as a user either.Specifically mobile Safari. It's horrible for standards compliance. I teach a front-end HTML/CSS class and for a while they were using iPads.
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@Carnage said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Also, isn't safari pretty much the new IE of the browsers in that it is out of date, broken and slow to the point of web devs having to write special code just for Safari?
Yes. And it's different if you're using Safari for Windows, Safari for Mac, Mobile Safari on IOS ( as mentioned above), or browser-emulated Safari mode.
If you want to support Safari, you absolutely MUST have a Mac and an iPad around to test with.
Sorry, make that TWO Macs and TWO iPads-- one running the latest OS, and one running a release behind. Because Safari will be different on both those OSes, and not every has upgraded or CAN upgrade to the newest OS.
Or just say "fuck you Safari" and expect people to use Chrome.
fake edit: oh oh oh I almost forgot. If you use Chrome on iOS, that's ALSO a different use-case, because it uses the Safari user agent and (some?) of the rendering engine.
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Just use HTML 4.01 Transitional and hope for the best
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@hungrier said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Just use
HTML 4.01 Transitionalplain text with line breaks and hope for the best
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@PleegWat https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/bypass-forced-download/ removes
Content-Disposition: attachmentfrom HTTP responses.
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@bugmenot I've never been a fan of having extensions to fix every little problem. That's how you get a massive security liability since you're trusting tons of people not to sneak malware in them, not to mention a mess of event handlers changing your pages every time you do anything which will sooner or later break things.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Yes. And it's different if you're using Safari for Windows, Safari for Mac, Mobile Safari on IOS
Safari for Windows was retired in 2012, so that's definitely different.
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@anonymous234 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@bugmenot I've never been a fan of having extensions to fix every little problem.
That was literally the only way to get functionality into Firefox for the longest time.
Then they killed XUL and now you can't do that anymore.
@anonymous234 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
That's how you get a massive security liability since you're trusting tons of people not to sneak malware in them,
If only the source of those extensions were open...
But really, for those "tiny little fixes", the Firefox add-ins used to be great. Code reviewed fairly often by an overzealous community. Also, upgrading the browser almost never broke existing add-ins, so you could find a version that was stable, and stay with it.
@anonymous234 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
not to mention a mess of event handlers changing your pages every time you do anything which will sooner or later break things.
Ah, right, Firefox extensions are now just glorified userscripts that rely on Javascript. Man, if only Firefox had some sort of Language that a User could Interface with-- maybe make it XML based for ease of use-- and then that could modify browser behavior rather than just page behavior.
If only.
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@loopback0 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Yes. And it's different if you're using Safari for Windows, Safari for Mac, Mobile Safari on IOS
Safari for Windows was retired in 2012, so that's definitely different.
Retired != not used.
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@Lorne-Kates Yes but if you're using a browser that was retired
57 years ago, no-one has any duty to support it. If the Internet doesn't work, tough shit.edit: counting fail.
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@loopback0 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates Yes but if you're using a browser that was retired
57 years ago,Pssst! You're talking to Mr. Firefox 22. His time pod is stuck in 2013.
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@HardwareGeek said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@loopback0 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates Yes but if you're using a browser that was retired
57 years ago,Pssst! You're talking to Mr. Firefox 22. His time pod is stuck in 2013.
So he's actually on a newer browser?
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@dcon said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@HardwareGeek said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@loopback0 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
@Lorne-Kates Yes but if you're using a browser that was retired
57 years ago,Pssst! You're talking to Mr. Firefox 22. His time pod is stuck in 2013.
So he's actually on a newer browser?
ACTUALLLY...
I did upgrade to FF28, which was the last version before AssCancer UI. It worked fine. But there's no TLS1.2 support.
So I abandoned Firefox and went to Palemoon. All the extensions I want work, I have the UI I want, the devs are committed to not injecting needless bullshit into the browser.
And TECHNICALLY since I'm using Palemoon 28.3.1, I am actually using a brand new, current release, up to date browser.
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@levicki What passes for web developers these days is utterly embarrassing. When you can't even download a file or fill out a simple form without the latest beta of Chrome, that's not on users but on shitty offshore developers and the shitty management that hired them. There's very little the latest Chrome beta can do that IE6 objectively cannot. It's mostly assholes pulling in 25MB of JavaScript libraries, that somehow stayed huge even after the compatibility sections were ripped out, crying how hard it is to cope with AttachEvent and AddEventListener. Look, if you can't write a little bit of code now and then, you should just make room for those who can.
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@loopback0 said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Tell that to this guy.
Safari 5.1.7 on Windows 10 isn't Supported Yet? · Issue #10086 · meteor/meteor
Meteor Version: 1.6.1.1 Operating System: Windows 10 Web Browser: Safari 5.1.7 for Windows You can directly open my WebApp at http://dev.web.klikchat.com and then open the web browser's console...
That issue leads to another Meteor issue debugging the same problem, where the OP finds that the problem is due to Meteor's change of JS code minifier, and makes a good point about how old shitty browser engines still need to be supported:
My opinion here (somebody who's been working with Meteor full-time since mid-'12) is that having the .js bundle even 2% smaller (if at all) is not good enough of a trade-off for having Meteor apps inaccessible across older iPad models and Tesla on-board computers.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Ah, right, Firefox extensions are now just glorified userscripts that rely on Javascript. Man, if only Firefox had some sort of Language that a User could Interface with-- maybe make it XML based for ease of use-- and then that could modify browser behavior rather than just page behavior.
At least for the Content-Disposition thing nothing much has changed. The add-on has no UI. In older Firefoxes it used to be a JS "component" and now it is a "web extension", but fundamentally it is the same thing: Run some startup code (called automatically by the browser), register a listener for HTTP response events, and modify stuff.
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@cheong said in Microsoft: IE fucked up everything and wasted untold billions of man-hours. Maybe don't use it anymore?:
Checked yesterday that even old links to previous WAR file that could not be previewed before can be viewed without problem now. Maybe they have fixed it these 2 months (Pretty sure it still not working during the first half of January).
After Chrome update today (possibly earlier because I've not received new deployment request in a while), I found that Chrome is now the only browser that can show WAR file preview. Both IE and Firefox will be shown the "Whoops! There was a problem with the preview." screen.
In all 3 browsers the upper right corner download link can still download the file, but only IE can start the download within 20-ish seconds. Chrome and Firefox need to wait much longer.
The whole behavior is very strange...
