Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time
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@Zerosquare
Yes, the BMW I had (more then a few years ago) literally does this.
GPS is limited to 5 digit postcode unless you get navigation pro. How hard it is for software to store/search 7 digit postcode instead of a 5 digit? even though a cheapo TomTom has done this since 2004.
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@Atazhaia
So the developers of the tool, made a tool that embarks on a process that takes a lot of processing time, and ties up the CPU for a long time, without thinking "na man, this isn't like we can stop and save data like other software. We treat this like a 3D printer where if things fail, the operator will have to find out after hours and hours and have to restart the whole thing".
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@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
You all just like to
complainBITCH.FTFY, oh enlightened one…
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@El_Heffe
"Fixing a problem should never involve the command line"
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@ben_lubar said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Atazhaia said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@ben_lubar Meanwhile, Linux Mint can update Adobe Flash just fine without needing a reboot. Maybe Windows tied flash technology tightly into the OS like it likes to do with web tech?
Also, Windows has a dumb thing where it's not able to update executables that are running, so you can't ever install an update pre-reboot.
Chromebooks do an interesting thing where every update installs an alternate copy of the OS so that the changes required to reboot are just a single bit saying "use the other copy of the OS".
But it still needs a reboot? what's the difference?
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@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
But it still needs a reboot? what's the difference?
On reboot you don't start at "Windows is installing updates (30%)"?
For the seasonal Windows 10 updates (and most Insider updates) it's not as bad as it used to be as it does a lot more before rebooting, but they haven't eliminated the delay completely.
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@Parody said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
But it still needs a reboot? what's the difference?
On reboot you don't start at "Windows is installing updates (30%)"?
For the seasonal Windows 10 updates (and most Insider updates) it's not as bad as it used to be as it does a lot more before rebooting, but they haven't eliminated the delay completely.It happens while I am asleep on windows home, as I set active hours from 8:00 to 23:00, so it could take 10mins or 2 hours, I don't really care.
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@Zerosquare said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@El_Heffe said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
It's my computer. Microsoft needs to piss off and mind their own business.
The usual counter-argument is "but average users would never update their systems otherwise, and their machine would end up in a botnet!".
Which is stupid, because you can fix this by leaving mandatory updating enabled by default, but providing a way to disable it in the advanced options. Average users won't look there, and real power users know enough to keep their machines up-to-date themselves. Self-proclaimed power users will disable it and get bitten, but they have a hundred ways of shooting themselves in the foot anyways, so it doesn't matter.
(and if users hate updates that much, maybe, just maybe, you could think about how it ended up like that. Just sayin'.)
Also it is not "your computer" if you are connected to the Internet. A failure to update increases the risk of malware, which allows it to HARM other peoples computers. If you don't want to keep a computer system up to date, then don't put it in a scenario where you can harm others [i.e. a disconnected computer will never see the need for any updates, hence never prompt or reboot]
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@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Parody said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
But it still needs a reboot? what's the difference?
On reboot you don't start at "Windows is installing updates (30%)"?
For the seasonal Windows 10 updates (and most Insider updates) it's not as bad as it used to be as it does a lot more before rebooting, but they haven't eliminated the delay completely.
It happens while I am asleep on windows home, as I set active hours from 8:00 to 23:00, so it could take 10mins or 2 hours, I don't really care.
I work similarly on my desktop and I force updates on my convertible tablet to prevent most update issues. I also don't run very long actions that would extend outside of Active Hours.
We are a tiny minority of users, though.
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@Helix To trigger
I can say that the tools involved were both opensource and CLI. :P But yeah, you can point me towards a video rendering program that will gracefully handle a forced reboot of the computer if you feel like it.
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@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@ben_lubar said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Atazhaia said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@ben_lubar Meanwhile, Linux Mint can update Adobe Flash just fine without needing a reboot. Maybe Windows tied flash technology tightly into the OS like it likes to do with web tech?
Also, Windows has a dumb thing where it's not able to update executables that are running, so you can't ever install an update pre-reboot.
Chromebooks do an interesting thing where every update installs an alternate copy of the OS so that the changes required to reboot are just a single bit saying "use the other copy of the OS".
But it still needs a reboot? what's the difference?
A full system reboot for an update on my Chromebook takes approximately zero seconds.
When Windows 10 updates, sometimes it takes hours before I get to a login screen, and then the update process continues after I log in.
On Linux, rebooting for an update is identical to rebooting for not-an-update unless you are rebooting as part of a distribution change (like Ubuntu 16.04 to Ubuntu 18.04).
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@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@ben_lubar I think Handbrake can?
How does that work? Does it do a memory dump of the encoder to a file?
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@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@TimeBandit A registry key file with that text in it can be distributed. I don't have to do anything in the shell.
... I can write a shell script that changes the required settings automatically, and you can just double click it and it will do the things? Just like a
.regfile? You do know that you can turn any sequence of valid shell commands into a script, on pretty much any OS that has a shell, ever?I don't even understand how you can think of saving a
.regfile and not know or remember that shell scripts exist... I... The mind, it boggles.
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@TimeBandit said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
I do in fact turn it off regularly. But the registry is your friend.
See, that's why Linux will never be ready for regular users. You always have to resort to the CLI or edit some obscure config files to configure something.
Oh, wait...
I won't go into how difficult it was to get IPX emulation running in DOSBox on Linux yesterday. But on the other hand, the Linux PC was nice enough not to reboot in the middle of my cooperative Hexen game.
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@Zerosquare said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
To fully control the update mechanism, you need the "Enterprise" edition, which (besides being more expensive) can't be bought easily.
I learned this recently, what a WTF. We were developing a product that needed to be shipped on Windows Enterprise due to customer requirements. Just prior to finishing the product, Microsoft changed it so you can't buy Windows Enterprise OEM anymore and there's really no reasonable way for a vendor to provide it. Now, you have to install Windows Pro and it's up to the end-user to buy an upgrade to Enterprise, which is tied to their email address and requires a monthly subscription. All of this is literally impossible for our customer for a variety of non-WTF reasons.
We ended up finding a third-party application that replicated the required Enterprise functionality and worked on Pro. It cost about a tenth of what the now-unavailable Enterprise license costs, didn't require any subscription fees or end-user customization, and did nice things to our profit margins since it didn't affect our contracted price to the customer.
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@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
IPX
@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
DOSBox
@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
Hexen
Wait, there's no Hexen engine in the style of gzdoom or something? That's surprising...
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@Onyx I'm sure there is. It's been a long time since I've dealt with Doom ports, but back then I learned that using the original game binaries on DOSBox is much easier. I once had moderate success with ChocolateDoom, except that the releases for Windows and Linux were on different versions and not compatible and I had no luck building from source to get a consistent version across platforms.
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@Onyx and then you run choad +x or whatever.
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@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Onyx and then you run choad +x or whatever.
If you mean "make it executable", it can be done from GUI, also, most DEs will figure out it's a script and ask if you want to run or edit it anyway.
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@Onyx Still. A reg file is interpreted simply as a set of key-values. I could distribute a ps1 file, but that wouldn't be as cromulent. That's why the registry was created - as a replacement for random ass-config files.
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@pie_flavor So now it's a database of random ass values stored behind random ass GUIDs. Great.
At least systems like Gnome which use registry-like settings have the common decency to shove stuff into XML with readable key names and descriptions that can be searched for (and yes, there are regedit-like GUIs as well).
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@Onyx said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@pie_flavor So now it's a database of random ass values stored behind random ass GUIDs. Great.
Basically. This way it's all centralized. Same sort of principle that gives Linux its lack of DPI scaling and shell inconsistency.
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@El_Heffe said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
Because people would set it to the maximum amount of time and hit Postpone for months.
So what?
It's my computer. Microsoft needs to piss off and mind their own business.
Because there's a massive cloud of idiots who go around saying Windows is not secure, because they don't update their machines. Microsoft got pissed off and fixed that problem, and don't care anymore about annoying people who just want something to complain about. They'll get their updates, they'll be secure, and if they feel like complaining, they can complain about something that's their own fault.
There are different kind of bad press. They'll take yours.
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@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
That's why the registry was created - as a
replacement for random ass-config filessingle point of failure.FTFY
When your registry is corrupted, Windows will not even boot.
If a random ass-config file is corrupted, only the service/program depending on it will be fucked.
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@Atazhaia said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@pie_flavor Ok, there is an official method. Now, MS only needs to put those back in the settings, like 7 had, and it will be good.
Instead of setting that, why not just save time and install the viruses and ransomware directly?
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@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
We treat this like a 3D printer where if things fail, the operator will have to find out after hours and hours and have to restart the whole thing".
See but if you buy a Prusa i3 Mk3 it'll auto-detect and fix shifted layers and also recover from power outages automatically. So your printer just sucks.
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@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
Instead of setting that, why not just save time and install the viruses and ransomware directly?
It's already bundled with it.
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@Onyx said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
At least systems like Gnome which use registry-like settings have the common decency to shove stuff into XML with readable key names and descriptions that can be searched for (and yes, there are regedit-like GUIs as well).
XML isn't transactional; the Registry is. (Meaning: two applications can simultaneously touch the same settings without fucking each other up by overwriting each other.)
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@TimeBandit said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
When your registry is corrupted, Windows will not even boot.
Have you seen that happen since Windows 98? Honest question. I haven't.
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@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
Have you seen that happen since Windows 98? Honest question. I haven't.
Yes. WinXP.
It created a backup of the registry after "successfully" booting, so all the backups were also screwed.
To be honest, never happened on my Win7
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@TimeBandit Even XP kept like 3 backups not even counting the ones in System Restore. You must have been supremely unlucky.
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@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
We ended up finding a third-party application that replicated the required Enterprise functionality and worked on Pro. It cost about a tenth of what the now-unavailable Enterprise license costs, didn't require any subscription fees or end-user customization, and did nice things to our profit margins since it didn't affect our contracted price to the customer.
*is interested*
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@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@TimeBandit said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
When your registry is corrupted, Windows will not even boot.
Have you seen that happen since Windows 98? Honest question. I haven't.
Yes, but in smaller scale. Currently I have a user profile hive that mostly kinda works but won't let them do things like open files by double-clicking them. It's super fun, and I haven't found all their licenses so I can't just nuke their profile and have them start over.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
We ended up finding a third-party application that replicated the required Enterprise functionality and worked on Pro. It cost about a tenth of what the now-unavailable Enterprise license costs, didn't require any subscription fees or end-user customization, and did nice things to our profit margins since it didn't affect our contracted price to the customer.
*is interested*
The customer required a single-app/kiosk mode, which only Windows Enterprise supports out-of-the-box. This fits the bill, and meant the not-very-tech-savvy and non-administrator end-users of this product don't have to navigate the process of setting up Enterprise subscriptions just to protect the system from themselves.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
I fuck my computers regularly... Wait.
- water cooling, but instead of water, lube
- Remove the fan
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@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
pause the video encoding
lol
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@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
The customer required a single-app/kiosk mode, which only Windows Enterprise supports out-of-the-box.
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@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
The customer required a single-app/kiosk mode, which only Windows Enterprise supports out-of-the-box.
Ah. Windows can kinda-sorta do that with assigned App mode, but of course that only applies to AppX Apps...
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@bb36e said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
Blakey Blakey Blakey
Rat Rat Rat
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@pie_flavor said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
the only thing it says is that Option 5 no longer works, when you probably want Option 2 anyway.
You could also use@NoAutoUpdate=1instead of@AUOptions=2.I've seen several reports that neither of those two settings work with current versions of Windows 10 Home, or at least that they don't work reliably for everybody.
@mott555 said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
The customer required a single-app/kiosk mode, which only Windows Enterprise supports out-of-the-box.
I think the official solution for that use case is one of the Embedded Windows editions, probably the POSready one? There is some info on Wikipedia:
(bonus WTF: read this article, and count how many times MS managed to rename things for no good reason.)
This document looks relevant, too:
But if you're deploying only a few systems, using third-party software like you did is probably the less headache-inducing solution.
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@Zerosquare said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
But if you're deploying only a few systems
Yeah, I repurposed a few "Linux" Compute Sticks, shoved Windows 10 on it in WimBoot mode (not technically supported anymore) and barely had enough space to load the digital signage program onto it (assets had to be redirected to an SD Card).
Guess how easy it is to shove Windows 10 onto a (less than) 8 Gb disk?
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@Zerosquare said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Helix said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@Zerosquare
it's not random, it reboots within the time period specified in settings.It's not random as in "random noise".
It's random as in "can't be reasonably forecasted or controlled".
You don't get to choose if and when updates are applied. All you can do is postpone them a little, and that's assuming you're in front of the machine.If it's critical that the system runs continually, then why not run 'pro' edition.
Even the "Pro" edition doesn't guarantee this. To fully control the update mechanism, you need the "Enterprise" edition, which (besides being more expensive) can't be bought easily.
Not to mention it's an artificial limitation which shouldn't exist in the first place. Can you imagine your car working like this?
"Oh, you needed to go somewhere right now? Sorry, your car is currently updating. If it was critical to have an always-available vehicle, you should have bought the professional version."Tesla is approximately three models from that being a thing.
Whether they go bankrupt before they get there is another story.
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@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@TimeBandit said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
When your registry is corrupted, Windows will not even boot.
Have you seen that happen since Windows 98? Honest question. I haven't.
Yes. I have seen it happen on XP through 8.1. Well, not on Vista but that's because it was a steaming turd that no one ever wanted. 8/8.1 were also but for different reasons.
I have not seen it on 10 yet. Give it time.
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@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@TimeBandit Even XP kept like 3 backups not even counting the ones in System Restore. You must have been supremely unlucky.
Assuming System Restore was on and running. When trying to fix friends and family machines it usually wasn't.
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@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
XML isn't transactional; the Registry is.
Did they make it so that those transactions can cover multiple changes to the registry yet, or are we still talking “transactional” with deeply dumb transaction boundaries which can leave a config half done (and the machine potentially unbootable) if things go wrong at the wrong moment? That certainly used to be an issue with the registry, while much less of a problem with config file when those were written correctly (yes, there's a transactional method which ensures that changes are either made or not made, but not half-made). And config files usually have the advantage of being smaller so that there's less likely to be two applications wanting to write the same thing at once in the first place; there's no deep reason why the registry couldn't have many smaller hives and get more robustness like that, but that's currently not how it is done.
What isn't common at all is keeping configuration in a full database, at least outside of web services.
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@dkf Well don't worry I'm sure I'm stupid and wrong and an idiot etc.
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@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@dkf Well don't worry I'm sure I'm stupid and wrong and an idiot etc.
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@dkf said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
yes, there's a transactional method which ensures that changes are either made or not made, but not half-made
You mean copy, edit, move back? That's pretty annoying to have to implement for everything, and then you have to deal with creating temporary files and do you even have file create permissions and who knows... I'd rather have the API be transactional in the first place.
Also, does this support granular locking like the registry does?
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@topspin said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
Also, does this support granular locking like the registry does?
Remember, there's much less need for it in the scenario I'm proposing: the config file is for one application (and either just one user or system-level without per-user info). Once you've reduced the state sharing, the locking problem ceases to be such a big deal; the natural change granularity level is the config file, but the config file isn't altered frequently in the first place. (My point was that a transactional API without the ability to affect multiple things in one transaction is still a PITA as configurations are almost never expressed as a single value; the solution the registry provides isn't the one really required.)
If something complicated is going on, that's when a database is the right approach. Not a half-done database like the registry, an actual database.
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@Polygeekery said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@blakeyrat said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
@TimeBandit said in Next Windows 10 major update will use machine learning to "try" not to force-reboot at the wrong time:
When your registry is corrupted, Windows will not even boot.
Have you seen that happen since Windows 98? Honest question. I haven't.
Yes. I have seen it happen on XP through 8.1. Well, not on Vista but that's because it was a steaming turd that no one ever wanted. 8/8.1 were also but for different reasons.
I have not seen it on 10 yet. Give it time.
It's the user's own damn fault for not doing system restore points.
Beware Of Apps Bundled With Your Windows 10
Secure Lockdown - Standard Edition
Windows IoT - Wikipedia
