Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish
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@izzion said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher
Oh, I understood the pendantry you're aiming for. But when the change is from "multiples of the useful life of a computer" to "multiples of the useful life of a computer", it's not a functional change.And you obviously didn't read the link I provided and don't follow SSD testing articles, since Samsung PRO drives like the precursors to the 900 tested to 800TB in that link, and Samsung drives routinely test to 800-1000TB in similar tests (though Intel and Corsairs test better, so by going with Samsung you're still going with the cheap/shitty drives )
No, you didn't understand and your comment only confirms it. Let me repeat - I don't want such decisions to be made without asking or informing me, regardless on the magnitude of implications (and in my case - screwing up the whole OS). If I wanted to dump my ram to disk, I would do it, because I would be happy at reducing my hw lifespan by whatever and it would be my decision. If you categorize such decision on the subjective impact they have on you - fine, but I don't give a shit about you.
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@neighborhoodbutcher My web browser writes to disc to cache things and speed them up. I was never asked about this and it reduces the lifespan of my disc. Why is it any different for my OS to do the same?
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher My web browser writes to disc to cache things and speed them up. I was never asked about this and it reduces the lifespan of my disc. Why is it any different for my OS to do the same?
Because:
- browser caching is a standard thing you expect to be there
- browser caching gives you noticeable performance boost
- the browser doesn't dump 32GB of data each time you close it
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
browser caching is a standard thing you expect to be there
Fast boot is a standard feature of Windows 10 that I expect to be there
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
browser caching gives you noticeable performance boost
Fast boot gives a noticeable performance boost
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
the browser doesn't dump 32GB of data each time you close it
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
I don't want such decisions to be made without asking or informing me, regardless on the magnitude of implications
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
browser caching is a standard thing you expect to be there
Fast boot is a standard feature of Windows 10 that I expect to be there
Oh, yeah compare browser caching which existed for years, to a feature introduced (or enabled?) with the latest OS update. Which wasn't communicated to the user in any way. Cool story bro.
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
browser caching gives you noticeable performance boost
Fast boot gives a noticeable performance boost
Not for me, so ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Another argument for actually asking the user. Or letting it boot once and asking if he likes it. Or whatever else which involves asking. If it works for you - great, but again, I don't give a shit about you.
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
the browser doesn't dump 32GB of data each time you close it
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
I don't want such decisions to be made without asking or informing me, regardless on the magnitude of implications
Cool, but you forgot that the important part is the one you've not made bold. Browser caching is a thing know to users and everyone can turn it off, when needed. It's not hidden so you must first know what to search for to actually find it, to make a decision if you want it.
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Browser caching is a thing know to users
Is it? I bet most of my non developer friends don't know or care what browser caching is, have no idea how to turn it off if they decided they didn't want it, and wouldn't know what setting to search for as the word cache isn't part of their daily vocabulary.
So, pretty similar to fast boot
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Oh, yeah compare browser caching which existed for years, to a feature introduced (or enabled?) with the latest OS update. Which wasn't communicated to the user in any way. Cool story bro.
What was the first browser to introduce caching? Did it offer an option or just turn it on by default? Standard features have to come from somewhere
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
I don't want such decisions to be made without asking or informing me, regardless on the magnitude of implications (and in my case - screwing up the whole OS). If I wanted to dump my ram to disk, I would do it, because I would be happy at reducing my hw lifespan by whatever and it would be my decision.
You have the option to turn this off. The vast majority of people buy a pre-built computer or laptop, don't touch a single setting in their life, and would (and do) benefit from this feature being turned on by default.
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Browser caching is a thing know to users
Is it? I bet most of my non developer friends don't know or care what browser caching is, have no idea how to turn it off if they decided they didn't want it, and wouldn't know what setting to search for as the word cache isn't part of their daily vocabulary.
So, pretty similar to fast boot
True, but neither you or I fall into the category of such users. It's a difference when something is an established standard (but unknown to the most basic of users), and when something is a new addition.
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@neighborhoodbutcher Be thankful Windows, like always, got a GUI to enable/disable it.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Power HiberbootEnabled DWORD 0 = Turn off fast startup 1 = Turn on fast startup
regedit.exe
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Oh, yeah compare browser caching which existed for years, to a feature introduced (or enabled?) with the latest OS update. Which wasn't communicated to the user in any way. Cool story bro.
What was the first browser to introduce caching? Did it offer an option or just turn it on by default? Standard features have to come from somewhere
Yes, it was an option.
@hungrier said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
You have the option to turn this off. The vast majority of people buy a pre-built computer or laptop, don't touch a single setting in their life, and would (and do) benefit from this feature being turned on by default.
I'm glad I can turn it off, but first I need to know it's there, and it's enabled. Neither of those things have been communicated. It also isn't something established well enough to be considered a standard. Hell, if I knew, I wouldn't have created this topic in the first place and simply turned the damned thing off.
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@timebandit said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher Be thankful Windows, like always, got a GUI to enable/disable it.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Power HiberbootEnabled DWORD 0 = Turn off fast startup 1 = Turn on fast startup
regedit.exe
Or, you know, use the GUI
- Type Control Panel in the search box.
- Click Control Panel.
- Click Power Options.
- Click Choose what the power buttons do.
- Click Change settings that are currently unavailable.
- Scroll down to Shutdown settings and uncheck Turn on fast startup.
- Click Save changes.
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@anonymous234 said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Just keeping it in RAM is even better, but of course that
takes some extra milliwatts which is unacceptable to some peopledoesn't work if you need to unplug your (non-laptop) machine.
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@jaloopa I found this helpful diagram:
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@jaloopa facts are to
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@hungrier Luckily, Windows always has a Linux fanboi who doesn't know what they're talking about to heap undeserved scorn on it
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@jaloopa actually, it would be fun if some of them showed up here, along with blakey :)
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@heterodox said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@dcon said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
My Insider-build machine was like that. Had to nuke/pave it.
Yeah, mine did that too, and it's not the first time. I'm starting to think getting Insider updates is a bad call for a number of reasons.
That's why I specifically use an "extra" machine. Besides, nuke/pave killed off all the extra Lenovo crap.
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@timebandit said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Be thankful Windows, like always, got a GUI to enable/disable it.
Yup.
edit: Yup, 'd...
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
the browser doesn't dump 32GB of data each time you close it
Evidently you haven't used Chrome. No, seriously, though, that writes a shitload of data. I have redirected its AppData folder to my HDD.
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I would use fastboot if I could make it dump to my HDD instead of SSD. But I imagine a symlink would fuck something up.
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@hardwaregeek That would be solved by just having a small battery in your desktop computer. As a bonus it would work as a mini-UPS to protect against power failures, without having to convert AC power to DC then to AC again then to DC again.
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
So, yeah. Explain to me the point of FastBoot for anyone who isn't still running Windows off a mechanical harddrive?
I've been building my own computers for 20 years and have always put in the biggest fastest everything that I could afford. But I'm not Microsoft's core customer.
Microsoft makes all of its money selling Windows to OEMs whose main goal is to make and sell cheap computers with the highest possible profit margin, which means bare minimum shit hardware. So Microsoft has to resort to all sorts of gimmicks like Fast Boot to make it appear that the computer is booting up quickly.
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@el_heffe and the rest of us, non-core customers, get their OS fucked up for a total of 0% perceivable improvement.
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
non-core customers, get their OS fucked up
Don't worry, all of their customers get a fucked up OS
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher My web browser writes to disc to cache things and speed them up. I was never asked about this and it reduces the lifespan of my disc. Why is it any different for my OS to do the same?
Disk caching is perfectly fine as long as you know one important word:
RAMdisk%TEMP goes to a RAMdisk. Browser cache goes to a RAMdisk. Etc.
Unless you use Edge as your web browser. Its cache is scattered across a couple of different locations and can't be moved, "for security reasons".
It might be possible to use a symlink to redirect Edge's cache to a RAMdisk but I wasn't able to get it to work and finally gave up because Edge is a shit browser and not worth the trouble.
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@timebandit said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
non-core customers, get their OS fucked up
Don't worry, all of their customers get a fucked up OS
No, installing the Linux subsystem is optional
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Also, if you want someone who hates Windows, try talking to my colleague. He hates Windows with such a passion it makes me look like a 100% Windows fanboy in comparison. (He also for some reason ends up having shitloads of issues that nobody else encounters. I suspect there's some mutual hatred going on there.)
Is he the kind of guy to apply registry "hacks" to work around "problems"?
I remember a guy that did this shit all the time, for example applying the "Tell windows to use DMA when talking to IDE drives" setting (needed for Win98 IIRC) on a Windows XP workstation using SATA.
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
another feature introduced in the FCU (iirc). As was mentioned in one of the other FCU topics, they changed the default shutdown option to automatically restore all open apps on next boot
it doesn't do that for me.
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
What was the first browser to introduce caching?
I don't remember if NCSA Mosaic did it or if it was one of the things introduced by Netscape and the predecessor of IE. Either way, it goes way back…
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@anonymous234 said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
So they just gave up and
put the functionality right in the shut down featurestarted lying about what they're doing.
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@jaloopa actually, it would be fun if some of them showed up here, along with blakey the moron idiot :)
Filed Under: Proactive
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@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Also, if you want someone who hates Windows, try talking to my colleague. He hates Windows with such a passion it makes me look like a 100% Windows fanboy in comparison. (He also for some reason ends up having shitloads of issues that nobody else encounters. I suspect there's some mutual hatred going on there.)
Is he the kind of guy to apply registry "hacks" to work around "problems"?
I remember a guy that did this shit all the time, for example applying the "Tell windows to use DMA when talking to IDE drives" setting (needed for Win98 IIRC) on a Windows XP workstation using SATA.
He's not, actually. He's just trying to use Windows to do the part of his job that requires him to use Windows, but he's always running into every single bug and edge case there is on the default settings (as provided by the corporation Windows image). Or when he ws dual-booting his laptop, he'd always have Windows Update issues because of how rarely he'd boot into it.
In good news: I finally to around to fixing the weird scaling issues I had in Windows when I actually looked up what the system-wide scaling was set to. Apparently, Windows wanted everything scaled to 125%. Changed to 100% and everything looks much better! (125% recommended my arse. Only if you want half the text in the OS to be slightly too large and/or blurry as fuck.)
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@benjamin-hall said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@atazhaia I remember a bunch of people complaining on these very forums that having windows restart for updates was bad because it wouldn't re-open windows. So they implemented a solution, trying to speed things up as much as possible for the normal case (single-user PCs). That Chrome, in particular, and YouTube (in more particular) decided that the best thing to do was autoplay all the things isn't Windows' fault.
Of course, I'm one of those odd people who shuts all the programs down before shutting down the system, but...
This is something that macOS got right. It will only automatically reopen programs after rebooting for an update. For normal reboot and/or shutdown it asks the user if it should automatically reopen all programs (defaulted to auto, but it will remember the last used choice).
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@mrl said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Gotta love his reaction upon looking at what was on Youtube, though. "Who has been watching hockey on my computer? Now my entire history and recommended videos are all hockey! I hate hockey!"Burn the heretic!
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
This is something that macOS got right. It will only automatically reopen programs after rebooting for an update.
This part of it is how Windows does it.
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Oh, yeah compare browser caching which existed for years, to a feature introduced (or enabled?) with the latest OS update. Which wasn't communicated to the user in any way. Cool story bro.
What was the first browser to introduce caching? Did it offer an option or just turn it on by default? Standard features have to come from somewhere
Yes, it was an option.
Sure it was an option. Where when and how was the user prompted that it was a thing and should it be enabled [y/n]?
If you can produce documented reproducible evidence this occurred I will accept it.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Sure it was an option. Where when and how was the user prompted that it was a thing and should it be enabled [y/n]?
If you can produce documented reproducible evidence this occurred I will accept it.
Trying a diversion, eh? Sorry, but eristic won't work here. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how quietly enabling a feature which broke my OS and gave no visible performance improvement on my type of hardware is better than asking me in the first place. Or even simply saying "hey, we enabled this cool feature".
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Sure it was an option. Where when and how was the user prompted that it was a thing and should it be enabled [y/n]?
If you can produce documented reproducible evidence this occurred I will accept it.
Trying a diversion, eh? Sorry, but eristic won't work here. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how quietly enabling a feature which broke my OS and gave no visible performance improvement on my type of hardware is better than asking me in the first place. Or even simply saying "hey, we enabled this cool feature".
"Hey, we enabled cache! It will make
browsingrepeat visits faster in some cases"Did that happen? No?
But then we get things like:
OMFG the Internet is so shitty every time I come back to this site it's displaying old news but on my friends computer it's fine! Why is everything always so broken wharglablraga!
Leading to blog posts about This Cool New Trick to fix your Internet!
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@neighborhoodbutcher are you under the impression that fast boot is new to the fall Creators Update? It's been there since Windows 10 was released, possibly since 8.
Whatever broke for you (and apparently only you) was presumably some interaction between fast boot and some other part of your system or hardware.
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher are you under the impression that fast boot is new to the fall Creators Update? It's been there since Windows 10 was released, possibly since 8.
Whatever broke for you (and apparently only you) was presumably some interaction between fast boot and some other part of your system or hardware.
Yes, it's been a feature since 8.
Here's a blog from 2011 that explains it:
Edit: the pre login login thing however is new.
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@tsaukpaetra I remember being really impressed by it the first time I tried out Windows 8 and went "Wow, they really improved the loading times to have Windows boot faster from a HDD than a SSD!" and then I learnt it was all fakery and lies made
with smoke and mirrorsby doing hibernation instead of a real shutdown.
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher are you under the impression that fast boot is new to the fall Creators Update? It's been there since Windows 10 was released, possibly since 8.
Whatever broke for you (and apparently only you) was presumably some interaction between fast boot and some other part of your system or hardware.
It wasn't enabled for me, and suddenly it was after the update. And it broke the OS. And it didn't increase performance. Again - how is this better than asking or informing me in the first place?
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@neighborhoodbutcher Did you disable it, or was it just working and you didn't realise? Because it's been on by default since Win8
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher Did you disable it, or was it just working and you didn't realise? Because it's been on by default since Win8
It was disabled. Hell, I even forgot that it exists. Now it's disabled again, and everything works fine as before. Side note: MS also does this stuff with privacy settings, when sometimes they tend to get reset.
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher Did you disable it, or was it just working and you didn't realise? Because it's been on by default since Win8
FWIW: Hibernation and Fast Boot were reenabled on this machine when I installed the FCU. Before I had Hibernation disabled, which prevents Fast Boot.
According to random posts in the Feedback Hub, it should be fixed in 17017 (and so in the next big release) but who knows?
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Side note: MS also does this stuff with privacy settings, when sometimes they tend to get reset.
That's a side effect of the coincidental combination of moronic decisions regarding where those settings are stored and what happens during an OS upgrade. When the OS is upgraded it moves the old OS to a different folder and installs the new version like fresh, which unfortunately means the settings stay with the old OS unless the new OS specifically looks for them and transfers them over. Because storing those settings in a place that doesn't get clobbered by the upgrade was apparently too insecure for them.
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@lb_ said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Side note: MS also does this stuff with privacy settings, when sometimes they tend to get reset.
That's a side effect of the coincidental combination of moronic decisions regarding where those settings are stored and what happens during an OS upgrade. When the OS is upgraded it moves the old OS to a different folder and installs the new version like fresh, which unfortunately means the settings stay with the old OS unless the new OS specifically looks for them and transfers them over. Because storing those settings in a place that doesn't get clobbered by the upgrade was apparently too insecure for them.
Now it makes sense why the "upgrade logs" are several hundred megabytes! They're Cherry picking things like registry entries and files and hand applying them to the new version!
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
(125% recommended my arse. Only if you want half the text in the OS to be slightly too large and/or blurry as fuck.)
"Recommended" not as in "will look the best", but "recommended" as in "a 72-point font will take up approximately one inch, which is 72 points, on that 120-pixel-per-inch screen of yours, instead of 0.8 inches (57.6pt)." It's stupid and I hate it given how badly most non-WPF programs handle it, but I can't deny there's a good reason for it.
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@kt_ Well, maybe if Windows would be a competently designed and well-built OS it would do a fast and clean boot from any kind of harddrive without the need for artificial crutches to give the illusion of booting fast.
... Billy should walk around like his broken leg is healed without using those artificial crutches! Man-up, Billy!
Also I'm not sure what you mean by "illusion" of booting fast. It actually does boot fast. I'm not sure what problem you have with the method Microsoft chose to implement it that causes you to declare it an "artificial crutch".
If I pre-load data in my web application's cache at startup to make pages load faster, is that an "artificial crutch"? Why/why not?
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Also, I was just hit with the new Windows "feature" mentioned in the OP. Colleague came in and connected his laptop and started the boot and then went for coffee. And ofc he had a browser tab with YT open, so it would load behind the login screen and start playing the world's longest fucking ad.
Microsoft isn't responsible for Chrome/Firefox/whatever auto-loading YT pages or YT deciding to auto-play on page load. If the browser were Edge, you might have a point I guess.
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Seriously, what inbred mongrel at Microsoft thought that feature would be a good idea ever? Fuck Microsoft and their ideas of "helpful" features. Is that yet another thing designed to make Windows look faster than it actually is?
Again, what are you thinking with the "look faster"? The user was already logged on, it was just locked. Unlocking is faster than logging in. This isn't a "looks faster", this is an "is faster". There is no illusion; it's the exact same thing Fast User Switching did back in Windows XP. (Or did you bitch about that also?)
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
As the login tends to be very slow compared to the competition
Is it.
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
So, my message to Microsoft: Stop adding these crutches to give the illusion of your OS being fast and work on actually MAKING it fast. Sort the underlying issues instead of just painting over the cracks. And fire the team who keeps coming up with and implementing these misfeatures.
What exact underlying issues cause you to perceive logins as being slow (when they aren't, but I digress), and why do you think "pre-loading stuff" isn't an appropriate solution to the problem?