Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations
-
Thank you all for sharing feedback to me over email. I skimmed the replies here, but I read everything someone wrote to me directly.
Immediate Changes & Reset
I do not support the recent moderation/administrative actions, but I take responsibility for them. For the time being, I’ve arbitrarily undone them all. I did not have the time to review them any of them, and while I do believe the actions were made with good intentions (like I believe most actions are done), they were inappropriate. If, for no other reason, they were unilateral. There’s only one person who gets to act unilaterally around here, and that’s me. I don’t do it very often, but I’m doing it now.
The reason this all happened is because I did not make roles and responsibilities very clear, nor did I articulate guidelines for how I’d like the community to operate. That’s my fault, and I’m working to correct it. As Remy wrote with On Systematic Debt, it’s time to correct these mistakes. Today, I will clarify the community guidelines and seek your feedback on how to handle administration going forward.
Community Guidelines and Policies
First and foremost, transparency in community policy, and changing/clarifying those policies, are important.
- Not all members may agree with the guidelines, and they are free to voice their opinion in the appropriate place (such as a Meta topic or something).
- Not all administrators may agree with the policies, but they will publicly support and apply them to give the appearance of fairness. There are places for “closed door” guideline discussions, and as capable adults, the administrators can figure out a way to come to a consensus. Or they can ask me to moderate the moderation. But regardless of the result, the administration team will come across as acting as a collective, without fear or favor.
This is a technology community, formed around software development. That’s not to say other topics are forbidden, but they should occur in appropriate, limited-access places (such as Trolleybus Garage). Generally speaking, they certainly can’t drown out the discussion on software development.
We encourage diversity. Many communities think of diversity in terms of ethnicity, race, sexuality, religion, and age. Those are important, but we will strive to inclusive of nearly everyone, which means being tolerant of different personalities, opinions, skillsets, experiences, and communications styles. There are limits to this tolerance, and these will be expressed in the transparent community policies that are maintained by the administrators.
Members need to act appropriately, guided by our community policies. This is not a problem for most adults most of the time, but for the exceptions, the administrators will clarify these policies with the member or take other actions as appropriate.
And last, but not least, if this system breaks down, anyone (members, administrators) should feel free to contact me off-forums. Email, whatever; I'm easy to get in touch with if it's important.
Current Admin "Team" & Future Admins
For the time being, I’m the sole administrator/moderator/dictator. And to warn you, I’m not very good at this. At all. I won’t do a good job of following any of the guidelines I just outlined. I act arbitrarily and capriciously. I won’t define what “appropriate” means to me, nor will I tell you what will happen if you act inappropriately. Even I don’t know, because it will depend on my mood and calorie intake at the time.
I’ve asked @boomzilla to (temporarily) act as my righthand man, since he knows the software and community much better than I do, and he’s graciously agreed and already helped by undoing all the actions.
We all want me to step out of this role very quickly, so let’s start by rebuilding an administration team so I can. I’d like a quorum of three to start; I’ll encourage the new team to expand to five if they can. Please nominate yourself or others, and continue to share feedback to me publicly or privately, so I can decide.
I’ll start by nominating @boomzilla.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Please nominate yourself
I volunteer as tribute for the General, Funny Stuff, and Sidebar WTF clans.
I'll see if I can't dig up my post where I suggested category rulers a while ago...
-
I nominate @abarker and second @boomzilla
and @Tsaukpaetra.edit: wait, I just re-read. Thought this was moderation team. Dunno if I'd nominate @Tsaukpaetra that high. Sorry @Tsaukpaetra
-
Will it just be three admins or will there be moderators as well?
-
@Jaloopa said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Will it just be three admins or will there be moderators as well?
My goal is to simply find three admins, and let them decide how to moderate -- but I would imagine they would keep the "moderator" and "admin" distinction. Perhaps they may post a "new moderation team" in a week, I'll leave it to them!
-
I third @boomzilla, even though it's basically a formality. Won't nominate anyone else, because I don't want to throw people into deep water if they don't want to, and no one has expressed willingness to become an admin yet. But I'll support pretty much any active member.
One thing, though. We're all grown-ups, so let's be honest - the major split in worldviews is between the left and the right. @boomzilla is rather far to the right. To stop people who disagree with @boomzilla from whining all the time, there needs to be at least one strongly left-leaning admin to balance him. Fellow forum members, please keep that in mind when voting.
-
@Gąska said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
there needs to be at least one strongly left-leaning admin to balance him.
In spite of better judgement, I... volunteer as tribute, if people want that.
-
I vote for @sloosecannon, on the condition that nobody more enthusiastic can be found.
-
For his propensity to deal with JavaScript and Node-y BS, I nominate @error!
-
@kazitor said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
For his propensity to deal with JavaScript and Node-y BS, I nominate @error!
He'll have the forum running in a Minecraft mod in no time!
-
@Gąska said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
One thing, though. We're all grown-ups, so let's be honest - the major split in worldviews is between the left and the right. @boomzilla is rather far to the right. To stop people who disagree with @boomzilla from whining all the time, there needs to be at least one strongly left-leaning admin to balance him.
Agreed. Diversity of opinion is important, as I mentioned. I would also like a pro-Windows and pro-Linux person, etc. I don't think we'll find anyone who actually likes JavaScript though.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
anyone who actually likes JavaScript
yeah, about that...
I'm also considerably pro Linux and Windows
-
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
as capable adults, the administrators can figure out a way to come to a consensus
So tempting to make a joke about this, but I'm not even going to.
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I’m not very good at this. At all. I won’t do a good job of following any of the guidelines I just outlined. I act arbitrarily and capriciously.
You're not making this easy. (not making jokes, that is)
-
I'll nominate myself if needed to reach quorom, but for the most part I'm happy with just being a moderator or even just a plain regular.
Because, you know...
-
@Zecc said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
You're not making this easy. (not making jokes, that is)
I'm sorry what were you saying? I got distracted by all these "Administrative Actions" and buttons I just discovered...
But anyways, don't worry about making jokes! As the (temporary) sole administrator/moderator/dictator, I want everyone to have FUN
So please make the jokes! Just make sure I'll find them funny (but not too funny as to cause me to spit my drink on my keyboard), and also not too offensive (they might upset me). I also like sarcasm, but only up to level 7. I may misunderestimate British-level sarcasm as an insult.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
find them funny
Well we have a thread for that!
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
too funny
And that!
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
too offensive
That too!
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
upset me
Even that!
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
sarcasm
This too!
We have a thread for everything*!
*Your mileage may vary. Do not combine with any other offers. Limit one everything per customer.
-
I've considered nominating myself but what puts me off is that I've been much less angry since muting the garage and wouldn't want to have to delve back in there to arbitrate disputes. I think similar thinking might be behind the fact that all the lady wing mods we've had in the past have ended up quitting the forum.
This really is a very different place when you aren't seeing the vitriol of the garage, or logging in after a sleep to find 800 new posts in a topic you were up to date on, that are mostly personal insults being thrown around. When it's not that it's just a bunch of conservative circle jerking about how dumb libtards are. There also seem to be a lot of people who barely participate in the actual tech based part of the forum. I'd almost forgotten xaade and lolwhat were members
-
@Jaloopa said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I'd almost forgotten xaade and lolwhat were members
They were on my "disappeared, ensure first-chance 'welcome lurker' response" queue. Then I skimmed some garage.
-
I nominate @apapadi... oh, wait.
I'm happy to do it, or be a mod, or just be a regular and mock the people who are admins or mods.
If this post will ever actually get posted, of course.
-
@Jaloopa said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I've considered nominating myself but what puts me off is that I've been much less angry since muting the garage and wouldn't want to have to delve back in there to arbitrate disputes. I think similar thinking might be behind the fact that all the lady wing mods we've had in the past have ended up quitting the forum.
I guess an option is to have some category specific moderators, should there be people who want to keep the rest clean without venturing into the Garage. Not sure how that'd work with Jeffing stuff into it though.
-
I'm a volunteer.
And I'm primarily a linux guy, but get windows computers at every bloody gig.
I do Java, but have done a handful of other languages in the past. (JavaScript is oddly lacking)
I am a strong believer in freedom of speach, and have a thick skin, in combination withI might not be well liked by some though?
I'm bad at reading such things.
-
@Gąska said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I vote for @sloosecannon, on the condition that nobody more enthusiastic can be found.
Appreciate the vote, by the way. And to be clear, the lack of enthusiasm is (mostly) a joke. If people are OK with me doing it, I'll be willing to. I don't think I've pissed too many people off
-
I don't object to any of the nominations so far
-
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
The reason this all happened is because I did not make roles and responsibilities very clear,
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
My goal is to simply find three admins, and let them decide how to moderate -- but I would imagine they would keep the "moderator" and "admin" distinction. Perhaps they may post a "new moderation team" in a week, I'll leave it to them!
I feel these two statements are in conflict with each other.
-
@Vault_Dweller said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I feel these two statements are in conflict with each other.
I believe they talking about slightly different things. The 'admin' and 'moderator' responsibilities in the second paragraph are a subset of the responsibilities implied in the first.
At least that's my interpretation, from my own point of view.
-
@Jaloopa said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I've considered nominating myself but what puts me off is that I've been much less angry since muting the garage and wouldn't want to have to delve back in there to arbitrate disputes.
If enough mods can be assembled tasks can be dockered. Admins also don't need to handle every thread, that's the mod's job.
-
@Gąska said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
the major split in worldviews is between the left and the right. @boomzilla is rather far to the right. To stop people who disagree with @boomzilla from whining all the time, there needs to be at least one strongly left-leaning admin to balance him. Fellow forum members, please keep that in mind when voting.
I have never understood this point of friction. Politics has never played in to any moderation decision that I have ever seen. And it never should.
-
I'm willing to step up if desired. But I'll continue to pretend the garage doesn't exist.
-
@PJH said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Vault_Dweller said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I feel these two statements are in conflict with each other.
I believe they talking about slightly different things. The 'admin' and 'moderator' responsibilities in the second paragraph are a subset of the responsibilities implied in the first.
At least that's my interpretation, from my own point of view.
That's correct, and I definitely want to walk away from this with clarity.
Today, there's just one role/responsibility right now: sole administrator/moderator/dictator. If someone happens to have extra forums permissions and can technically do any things on the site regulars can't, please don't without checking with me first. I may be tempted to see what the "Ban" or "Delete" buttons do.
Once I assemble an admin team, we'll make sure the community guidelines are clear to everyone on the team, discuss what changes should be made, reach some sort of consensus, figure out how to transition, clarify roles/responsibilities, and all those things.
-
@Polygeekery said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Gąska said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
the major split in worldviews is between the left and the right. @boomzilla is rather far to the right. To stop people who disagree with @boomzilla from whining all the time, there needs to be at least one strongly left-leaning admin to balance him. Fellow forum members, please keep that in mind when voting.
I have never understood this point of friction. Politics has never played in to any moderation decision that I have ever seen. And it never should.
It may be that people feel disenfranchised because there is no voice for them on the administrators council. I can fully understand the sentiment.
-
@Polygeekery said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I have never understood this point of friction. Politics has never played in to any moderation decision that I have ever seen. And it never should.
Nevertheless it doesn't hurt to have at least a minimal level of diversity (in the broadest terms) in the admin/mod team.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
As the (temporary) sole administrator/moderator/dictator, I want everyone to have FUN
Is... is it mandatory, your highness?
-
@Polygeekery Politics may not be involved in the actual decision but if you get moderated by a group that is entirely political opponents, it can certainly look that way - particularly if other posts don't get moderated and they are on the other side of the argument.
It's about perception.
Also, when a lot of 'offensive material' rules are subjective, it's important to have a range of views on what is offensive. Is it offensive to think it's wrong to be gay, or to treat different castes/ethnic groups/etc differently, or the sexes, or trans issues, or whatever? Different political tribes have different opinions about that (and the offence vs free speech divide in general), and you want a broad spectrum to make fair decisions.
-
@bobjanova said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Polygeekery Politics may not be involved in the actual decision but if you get moderated by a group that is entirely political opponents, it can certainly look that way - particularly if other posts don't get moderated and they are on the other side of the argument.
It's about perception.
Also, when a lot of 'offensive material' rules are subjective, it's important to have a range of views on what is offensive. Is it offensive to think it's wrong to be gay, or to treat different castes/ethnic groups/etc differently, or the sexes, or trans issues, or whatever? Different political tribes have different opinions about that (and the offence vs free speech divide in general), and you want a broad spectrum to make fair decisions.
I think that since offense is entirely subjective, it's something that should be clearly stated in the rules for the particular part of the forum. The rules should also be a living thing, and updated according to the community it regards. Then I think it's up to the denizens to report when they've been offended to the moderators and/or admins who then get to validate it against the rules. Preferably a mod or admin that is not involved in the current goings on in the discussion that lead to the offense being taken.
-
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I do not support the recent moderation/administrative actions, but I take responsibility for them. For the time being, I’ve arbitrarily undone them all.
What actions?
Someone can ping me on chat if it's a secret.
-
@Carnage said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@bobjanova said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Polygeekery Politics may not be involved in the actual decision but if you get moderated by a group that is entirely political opponents, it can certainly look that way - particularly if other posts don't get moderated and they are on the other side of the argument.
It's about perception.
Also, when a lot of 'offensive material' rules are subjective, it's important to have a range of views on what is offensive. Is it offensive to think it's wrong to be gay, or to treat different castes/ethnic groups/etc differently, or the sexes, or trans issues, or whatever? Different political tribes have different opinions about that (and the offence vs free speech divide in general), and you want a broad spectrum to make fair decisions.
I think that since offense is entirely subjective, it's something that should be clearly stated in the rules for the particular part of the forum. The rules should also be a living thing, and updated according to the community it regards. Then I think it's up to the denizens to report when they've been offended to the moderators and/or admins who then get to validate it against the rules. Preferably a mod or admin that is not involved in the current goings on in the discussion that lead to the offense being taken.
Power shouldn't be wielded in anger.
I think it is worth having a discussion whether areas like the garage (someone called them 'echo chambers') are a good idea. On the one hand, I think they have value in that they allow people to express parts of their personality which they can't show otherwise. On the other hand, it unavoidably leaks, if only because it colours interactions between the same people elsewhere.
This also applies to the porn/kink side, which does not have its own category but has generally been limited to a few threads. I'm sure it leaks as well, though it's hard for me to see the degree to which it does so. There have definitely been complaints about it in the past.
-
It could be fun to have a lefty moderate the Garage, if we do what @Tsaukpaetra suggested and have category-specific mods, but I wonder how long a left wing mod would last before snapping and going ham again. Hey, could be fun! We could start a betting pool!
Also, while we're talking about changes, I'd like to repeat my proposal to just get rid of the Salon. It's just the Garage in disguise. Instead of people telling those they disagree with to eat shit and die and letting go of their anger through that, everyone's just incredibly passive aggressive and the place ends up a much worse sewer than the Garage ever was. I think it's actually worse than the Garage when @fox was around - he'd call us Nazis, we'd call him a gay furry, it was mostly just funny, and even when someone got dragged into a 200 post slapfight with him, that happened rarely and while it was boring, it wasn't creating any long-lasting bad blood. The Salon does, imo. It's so damn bad, even I don't go there. Open aggression is way healthier than passive aggression, is my point I guess.
(To clarify - yes, I'm aware some people left the forums, likely because of the Garage, and some forum regulars avoid it like the Plague, and that's fine, that's why it's a separate category, and @fox eventually broke and got banned - but not being able to stomach the topics being discussed is different from just hating the people who discuss them, or at least I hope so. Or at least that's how I always saw it.)
-
@MrL said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@apapadimoulis said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I do not support the recent moderation/administrative actions, but I take responsibility for them. For the time being, I’ve arbitrarily undone them all.
What actions?
Someone can ping me on chat if it's a secret.
Most of the drama happened in the nodebb updates discussion thread. Tl;dr Ben went on a rampage of temp and perma bans of people judged to have been acting like neo Nazis, lots of people got angry and most of them got banned too. Alex stepped in and undid it all
-
@MrL said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Someone can ping me on chat if it's a secret.
Very public.
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/19454/nodebb-updates
https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/19758/discussion-of-nodebb-updates/3325
-
@MrL Ben described it from his PoV here: https://aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.lubar.me/2020/06/june-16th-2020
A bunch of people got banned due to "bigotry", Boomzilla got de-admined, Polygekery got permabanned, and then Ben started accusing everyone asking questions about it to be "using the alt-right playbook" and a bunch of other shit and saying that eradicating autism means genocide. People who did nothing objectionable at all started getting temp banned left and right.
The discussion where it was unraveling starts here: https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/19758/discussion-of-nodebb-updates/3326 (that post seems to be jeffed from the Salon, that's why it doesn't make any sense in the thread)
-
@PleegWat said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I'm willing to step up if desired. But I'll continue to pretend the garage doesn't exist.
I can get behind this - essentially a mod to represent those of us that avoid the garage to various degrees. (I don't mind seeing @boomzilla back either, regardless of ideological differences, I think he's done a relatively good job, with relatively little (or any?) abuse of the mod powers. Besides, who else has a 5+ years of experience with Jeffing posts?)
-
@PleegWat said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Carnage said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@bobjanova said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
@Polygeekery Politics may not be involved in the actual decision but if you get moderated by a group that is entirely political opponents, it can certainly look that way - particularly if other posts don't get moderated and they are on the other side of the argument.
It's about perception.
Also, when a lot of 'offensive material' rules are subjective, it's important to have a range of views on what is offensive. Is it offensive to think it's wrong to be gay, or to treat different castes/ethnic groups/etc differently, or the sexes, or trans issues, or whatever? Different political tribes have different opinions about that (and the offence vs free speech divide in general), and you want a broad spectrum to make fair decisions.
I think that since offense is entirely subjective, it's something that should be clearly stated in the rules for the particular part of the forum. The rules should also be a living thing, and updated according to the community it regards. Then I think it's up to the denizens to report when they've been offended to the moderators and/or admins who then get to validate it against the rules. Preferably a mod or admin that is not involved in the current goings on in the discussion that lead to the offense being taken.
Power shouldn't be wielded in anger.
I think it is worth having a discussion whether areas like the garage (someone called them 'echo chambers') are a good idea. On the one hand, I think they have value in that they allow people to express parts of their personality which they can't show otherwise. On the other hand, it unavoidably leaks, if only because it colours interactions between the same people elsewhere.
The leakage is a valid point. But having been around here since the Community Server days, not having the garage would make all that drama happen in the forum proper instead as it did back then. This is an unwieldy community of people with a really wide range of very firm opinions, high levels of frustration and perhaps a bit lacking in social competence. Butting of heads is probably inevitable.
This also applies to the porn/kink side, which does not have its own category but has generally been limited to a few threads. I'm sure it leaks as well, though it's hard for me to see the degree to which it does so. There have definitely been complaints about it in the past.
Kinks have certainly been elsewhere, but I also don't quite think this is leakage, since I've seen it happen on plenty of forums without any threads for such things.
-
@blek said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Is... is it mandatory, your highness?
-
@cvi said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
I can get behind this - essentially a mod to represent those of us that avoid the garage to various degrees.
Maybe we should just rename it to "GarBage" (Hey, it's just a single-letter change!) and implement a garbage collector.
-
@cvi said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Besides, who else has a 5+ years of experience with Jeffing posts?
Pass.
And no.
-
Feature request: some sort of announcement when mods and admins are appointed or demoted. In the past people tended to just suddenly be mods, and I assumed that was still happening and we had a lot more staff than we actually did
-
I nominate myself as an admin, at least. I'd like to think I'd be OK as a mod as well, but my minimal-government stance (interpreted by some as far-right, I guess) might rub some the wrong way.
-
@Jaloopa said in Administration/Moderation Changes & New Admin Team Nominations:
Feature request: some sort of announcement when mods and admins are appointed or demoted. In the past people tended to just suddenly be mods, and I assumed that was still happening and we had a lot more staff than we actually did
Agreed. Probably a topic in meta, with a current list maintained in the first post?
-
Seeing the recent mess I can nominate @Atazhaia, so myself, as admin or moderator or for just glaring angrily at people misbehaving. My qualifications include having a strong sense of and owning a lawn in a family-heavy neighborhood, so I have to yell at kids to keep off of it (happened once).
But yeah, I have been a moderator in a community before and having had to deal with all sorts of exciting stuff, up to and including the community (nearly) falling apart when the admin ended up having a disagreement with the entire moderation team where I managed to stay friendly with both sides throughout the entire thing, despite being on the moderation team's side and therefore, according to the admin, part of the problem.
But yeah, I can be the forum Asgore. Big, cuddly and friendly until I am forced to act, in which case there will be no mercy whatsoever.
-
I read the other thread and that was an interesting ride.
So are we getting a CoC now?