Serve America (a shitty website)!
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
I read somewhere, a while back, that it is something stupid like the new President and/or his transition staff selects around five thousand people. Still smaller than a whole government, but larger than I'd normally expect.
Yeah, "a few thousand" would have been the upper limit of my guess. Probably the top two or three levels of management at each of the agencies and the entire White House staff.
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
So, it would help if I knew what you meant.
Your fallacy is:
... assuming he knows what he meant.
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
If you're suggesting that we're solely a democracy, then that's wrong.
If we were in another category, I'd argue that the US have been a plutocracy for decades.
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@asdf said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
plutocracy
More like, special interest group led.
The interest group doesn't have to always be rich.
But sometimes it's a mask for the actual rich person (more clever), like with the lobbying against the keystone pipeline turning out to be paid for by an owner of the impacted railroads.
So, sometimes you're protesting the big bad rich guy, not realizing you're helping the big bad rich guy.
Meh...
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
In reality, however, they're prevented from doing so (at least usually) by "checks and balances" (e.g. opposing parties, the constitution, other nations with whom exists a previous agreement, ...) which means that they'll have to trade favours and deal in compromises.
Well of course all those things would be in place.
I'm talking about
- Obama not doing anything about gay marriage.
- Republicans not making a real effort to repeal ACA.
I don't care what you agree with.
The point is that the politicians we are electing aren't making a real effort to do the things they promised.
I'm not talking about giving any singular politician totalitarian control.
I'm talking about how we're in this place, with the worst options gaining the most support, because people are frustrated with the reasonable options giving up on their campaign promises as soon as they're elected.
We're lucky we haven't had a straight up Civil War II by now because of this crap.
When the people feel like it doesn't make a difference who they elect, they'll get pissed, and then do something stupid.
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@Rhywden Well, it's technically not a democracy anyway.
Correct. It's a federal republic (at least on paper). An argument could be made for tacking on "constitutional" as well, but "constitutional federal republic" is kind of long.
@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
That's how politics in a democracy work
Repeat after me: the US is not a democracy.
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@abarker A republic is a kind of democracy. You're trying to confuse the issue by declaring: "D'oh, but it has a different name!"
By that line of reasoning, our German party "CSU" which is an acronym for "Christian Social Union" should be anathema to any rightwinger, when in fact quite a number of right-wing people from here would feel right at home.
Also, Germany is a democracy. Do you know, however, what our official name is?
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@abarker said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Repeat after me: the US is not a democracy.
It's fairly close to being a Representative Democracy, where democratic procedures are used to choose a small subset of people who make the decisions. This is as opposed to a Direct Democracy, where the people take the decisions through plebiscite; that can work for a small number of decisions per year, but the more decisions required per month, the better it is to delegate.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
A republic is a kind of democracy.
No. Republic impacts a different aspect of our government than representation.
Most definitions will include representation in the definition of a Republic, because that's the expectation, and language sucks.
But the original meaning was very vague, inferring to only a government that works for the people.
In that frame, our Republic refers to the constitution and the rule of law.
In fact, in the classical sense, you can have a Republic without any form of representation. As long as the government is geared towards the people, instead of a monarch, etc.
That's why it's called "The People's Republic of China".
@dkf said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
It's fairly close to being a Representative Democracy,
This is actually correct.
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@dkf said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
It's fairly close to being a Representative Democracy,
This is actually correct.
So, you are a democracy but you insist that you aren't. In which universe is this supposed to make sense?
By the way, abarker stated, and I quote:
Correct. It's a federal republic
Germany's official title is "Federal Republic of Germany". Do you now want to tell me that we're not a democracy?
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
In fact, in the classical sense, you can have a Republic without any form of representation.
That's plain wrong. The term comes from ancient Rome, you cannot get much more "classic".
And their version of a republic had plenty of representation (though not for everyone, of course).
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@asdf said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
I'd argue that the US have been a plutocracy for decades.
Nah, Mickey Mouse is the one who owns America.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
In fact, in the classical sense, you can have a Republic without any form of representation.
That's plain wrong. The term comes from ancient Rome, you cannot get much more "classic".
And their version of a republic had plenty of representation (though not for everyone, of course).
So the Roman Republic was not democratic, then....
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
So, you are a democracy but you insist that you aren't. In which universe is this supposed to make sense?
In the universe where football is soccer in America.
Like I said, language sucks.
@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Germany's official title is "Federal Republic of Germany". Do you now want to tell me that we're not a democracy?
Democracy is a component of a particular implementation of Republic. That's why America isn't a democracy, and neither are most countries.
The distinction is important, because historically we have had democracies and they don't work.
@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
ancient Rome
Classical involves more than just Rome.
Saying a Republic MUST have representation, is like saying that agile MUST have sprints. Representation is an implementation detail.
If I were to describe America, I would say that it has Democracy for electing politicians, Republic for Constitution, and Representation for legislation.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
That's plain wrong. The term comes from ancient Rome, you cannot get much more "classic".
And their version of a republic had plenty of representation (though not for everyone, of course).The original democracies were in the city states of Ancient Greece, where everyone could vote on any issue affecting the city. Everyone did not include slaves, women or foreigners (anyone not from the city). The Greek democracies were often dominated by tyrants and mob rule; not particularly nice places to be.
The Roman Republic was rather complicated, politically. I was going to summarise, but there's too much. :( However the really big change was that the Romans were much keener on having laws than the Greeks were (though not always consistently applied, especially during the imperial period that followed the republic).
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Democracy is a component of a particular implementation of Republic. That's why America isn't a democracy, and neither are most countries.
The distinction is important, because historically we have had democracies and they don't work.
An indirect democracy is still a democracy. It's a subset.
You seem to be stuck on this bizarre notion that only a direct democracy is a "real" democracy.
Terms change over time. Try to keep up and don't stay in the Stone Age.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
An indirect democracy is still a democracy.
I prefer the term “representative democracy”.
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@dkf Well, if we want to get really highbrow we could always use psephocracy.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Terms change over time. Try to keep up and don't stay in the Stone Age.
I think you mean the "Modern Age".
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@dangeRuss said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@Lorne-Kates said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
It's a cookbook.
The best Hispanics are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!
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@dangeRuss said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@Lorne-Kates said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
It's a cookbook.
AMERICA IS PEOPLE!... wait, what.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Terms change over time. Try to keep up and don't stay in the Stone Age.
To some degree yes.
But if we're going to rub out that distinction, then
- China will disagree with you.
- The terms become irrelevant.
What's the purpose of making Democracy and Republic mean the same thing, just because people are confused on what the difference is?
Republic, in practical use, includes rule of law and legislation, Democracy does not.
Representative Democracy is a form of Republic, but not the only form.
It's not a hard distinction to make.
I mean, we might as well through out formal dictionaries and always reference urban dictionary, if that's the case.
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
I mean, we might as well through out formal dictionaries and always reference urban dictionary, if that's the case.
Not sure if deliberate ;)
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
through
WHY ARE THESE WORDS PRONOUNCED SO DIFFERENTLY
through
though
trough
tough
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@ben_lubar said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
WHY ARE THESE WORDS PRONOUNCED SO DIFFERENTLY
Why are you asking me? It's your crappy, inconsistent language.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
The only kind of political system where the leaders get to do what they want are dictatorships and the like.
What if pens and telephones exist in the country?
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
What's the purpose of making Democracy and Republic mean the same thing, just because people are confused on what the difference is?
Republic, in practical use, includes rule of law and legislation, Democracy does not.
Representative Democracy is a form of Republic, but not the only form.
They're not the same thing. I never said that. And "democracy does not include law and legislation"?
The Swiss will be astounded to hear that their direct democracy does not actually pass laws and legislation.
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@boomzilla said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
What if pens and telephones exist in the country?
Tried that but ended up only scratching the glass
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@Luhmann said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Tried that but ended up only scratching the glass
Oh, mobile? Yeah, that's different.
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@boomzilla said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Oh, mobile?
Your country still uses landlines? Who are you calling? Mr. Bell?
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@Rhywden I think possibly the description you're all looking for is that "America is a Democracy and a Republic".
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@CarrieVS said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@Rhywden I think possibly the description you're all looking for is that "America is a Democracy and a Republic".
According to @xaade it isn't a democracy because it's a republic.
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@Rhywden How do democratic people's republics work then?
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@CarrieVS In the way that an orange is round and juicy... yes.
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@PleegWat said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
How do democratic people's republics work then?
They pretend to work and pretend to get paid, IIRC.
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@ben_lubar said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
WHY ARE THESE WORDS PRONOUNCED SO DIFFERENTLY
through
though
trough
toughSee also… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaos
Finally, which rhymes with enough,
Though, through, bough, cough, hough, sough, tough??
Hiccough has the sound of cup...
My advice is: GIVE IT UP!Shortened video version
https://youtu.be/1edPxKqiptw?t=33s
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
I mean, we might as well through out formal dictionaries and always reference urban dictionary
That will happen sooner or later.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@abarker A republic is a kind of democracy. You're trying to confuse the issue by declaring: "D'oh, but it has a different name!"
By that line of reasoning, our German party "CSU" which is an acronym for "Christian Social Union" should be anathema to any rightwinger, when in fact quite a number of right-wing people from here would feel right at home.
Also, Germany is a democracy. Do you know, however, what our official name is?
At the risk of being provocative,(1) I'd suggest that the official name is NOT the German Democratic Republic (Deutsche Demokratische Republik)...
(1) No. At the certainty and with the intention of being provocative. It's a phrase. Get over it.
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@Steve_The_Cynic The first sentence doesn't make much sense. The second even less.
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@xaade said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
We're lucky we haven't had a straight up Civil War II by now because of this crap.
My (late) wife was, by birth, Texan, and had definite opinions on things. She called the war of 1860-65 by various names, depending on her mood, but she seemed in general to favour The War of Northern Aggression or The War of American Secession.
(There's a vaguely reasonable case to be made that it wasn't, in the classic sense, a civil war. It isn't very reasonable, but it isn't completely out in left field either.)
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@Steve_The_Cynic The first sentence doesn't make much sense. The second even less.
Your previous assertion: Germany is a democracy.
My assertion, stripped of verbiage: Germany is NOT called the German Democratic Republic.
The "footnote" is a comment on "At the risk of being X" usually meaning "I'm going to be X but I want to be able to deny it".
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@Steve_The_Cynic Maybe you should take a look at what I responded to. And then you may have a go at it again, okay?
Because currently you're trying to counter an argument I never made and making yourself look a fool in the process.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@Steve_The_Cynic Maybe you should take a look at what I responded to. And then you may have a go at it again, okay?
Because currently you're trying to counter an argument I never made and making yourself look a fool in the process.
Depends, I suppose. Do you know what the German Democratic Republic was?
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
Depends, I suppose. Do you know what the German Democratic Republic was?
My parents' home is 10 km from the former border. I walked through a border post myself when The Wall fell.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
I walked through a border post
Did it hurt?
I walked through a sign one time and it left a red mark down the side of my head.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
@Steve_The_Cynic Maybe you should take a look at what I responded to. And then you may have a go at it again, okay?
Because currently you're trying to counter an argument I never made and making yourself look a fool in the process.
Having thought about this some more: I'd also point out that I was making an indirect word-play jest on the conflict between "Germany is a democracy" and the loss of the name that called it democratic. You know, a joke...
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@Steve_The_Cynic Present-day Germany (which I am talking about due to my usage of the present tense) never had the words "Democratic" in its official name. So we also never "lost" anything.
Okay, you seem to be somewhat confused here. The original point by @xaade was this:
We're not a democracy because we're a republic! A federal republic even!
To which I replied (not all in one post, though):
That's nice. However, Germany is definitely a democracy. Our official name is "Federal Republic of Germany"
which was supposed to serve as a counter to the idea that just because you are a (federal) republic you cannot be a democracy for some weird reason.
Why you now got hung up on the GDR I cannot fathom.
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@Rhywden said in Serve America (a shitty website)!:
which was supposed to serve as a counter to the idea that just because you are a (federal) republic you cannot be a democracy for some weird reason.
Is your country free as in beer or free as in speech?