Internet of shit
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@dkf said in Internet of shit:
@TimeBandit "This should take 10 to 25 minutes." for what's apparently an internet-connected meat thermometer.
They know how well wifi behaves in the backyard.
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@Bulb said in Internet of shit:
where the hell is Wonko when the world needs him?
He's right outside, just as ever.
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@dcon said in Internet of shit:
They know how well wifi behaves in the backyard.
Look, 25 minutes is almost enough time to install a Windows update on an SSD or download the first part of an Xcode update. A thermometer's OS should not be that fucking large!
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@dcon
Don’t squash his feeling of smugness about being a 1%er
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@dkf said in Internet of shit:
@dcon said in Internet of shit:
They know how well wifi behaves in the backyard.
Look, 25 minutes is almost enough time to install a Windows update on an SSD or download the first part of an Xcode update. A thermometer's OS should not be that fucking large!
It probably has an embedded web server that delivers the Weber logo as a 24bit BMP. And they used up all the GPIO pins for LEDs so the WiFi module had to go on the RS232 port.
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@LaoC said in Internet of shit:
And they used up all the GPIO pins for LEDs so the WiFi module had to go on the RS232 port.
GPIO's not very fast either, both it and RS232 are desperately slow by comparison with even the networking of 30 years ago. If they're using a SoC then the wifi controller's probably on the silicon, because you just bake one in as an option; it's simpler than using an external chip. If it was wired networking, the PHY controller probably would be separate (as it is electrically different; it literally uses different voltages and it's just so much easier to keep those separate).
More likely is that they've got a desperately slow Flash on the board and have a full Linux distribution running inside. Because you need a database server and a full GUI stack on a meat thermometer, just in case...
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@dkf said in Internet of shit:
More likely is that they've got a desperately slow Flash on the board and have a full Linux distribution running inside. Because you need a database server and a full GUI stack on a meat thermometer, just in case...
There's a trend to deliver updates via the main signal (e.g., printer gets updated by printing a special file, etc). From this, I'm assuming the thermometer is receiving its update by modulating the temperature on the sensor in the right pattern.
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@cvi said in Internet of shit:
I'm assuming the thermometer is receiving its update by modulating the temperature on the sensor in the right pattern.
Take hold of and release the sensor with your fingers to enter bits: 37 °C = 1, <37 °C = 0. Oh, and here’s a critical update that you have to do ASAP, never mind the heatwave your area is having right now.
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I'm not sure whether these are actually internet-connected, but they use a phone app to control them, come with a $20/month subscription fee, and according to one comment, have already been hacked to display, well, to comply with Rule 34.
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I don't think that's the right video.
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@dcon said in Internet of shit:
@dkf said in Internet of shit:
@TimeBandit "This should take 10 to 25 minutes." for what's apparently an internet-connected meat thermometer.
They know how well wifi behaves in the backyard.
No joke, ours is literally on the other side of the wall from one of (!) the APs, and it hardly connects...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Internet of shit:
@dcon said in Internet of shit:
@dkf said in Internet of shit:
@TimeBandit "This should take 10 to 25 minutes." for what's apparently an internet-connected meat thermometer.
They know how well wifi behaves in the backyard.
No joke, ours is literally on the other side of the wall from one of (!) the APs, and it hardly connects...
Well, my house is pretty much a Faraday cage...
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@dcon said in Internet of shit:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Internet of shit:
@dcon said in Internet of shit:
@dkf said in Internet of shit:
@TimeBandit "This should take 10 to 25 minutes." for what's apparently an internet-connected meat thermometer.
They know how well wifi behaves in the backyard.
No joke, ours is literally on the other side of the wall from one of (!) the APs, and it hardly connects...
Well, my house is pretty much a Faraday cage...
One of the nice things about wood frame construction is that there's very little interference with RF. I can easily access my WiFi from my backyard shed/workshop. I could also (theoretically, if they were unsecured) access the WiFi of at least a half-dozen neighbors.
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@HardwareGeek said in Internet of shit:
@dcon said in Internet of shit:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Internet of shit:
@dcon said in Internet of shit:
@dkf said in Internet of shit:
@TimeBandit "This should take 10 to 25 minutes." for what's apparently an internet-connected meat thermometer.
They know how well wifi behaves in the backyard.
No joke, ours is literally on the other side of the wall from one of (!) the APs, and it hardly connects...
Well, my house is pretty much a Faraday cage...
One of the nice things about wood frame construction is that there's very little interference with RF. I can easily access my WiFi from my backyard shed/workshop. I could also (theoretically, if they were unsecured) access the WiFi of at least a half-dozen neighbors.
Conversely, you can use this principle to get a rough idea of how soundproof an apartment complex is going to be. If you can see 20+ APs in a 6-units-per-building complex, you know you're gonna get some concerts.
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@izzion I am surprised. Who could have thought of that?
And then there was also the discussion of electric appliances which could be programmed to start when electricity prices were low, e.g. washing machines. They'd then start at the same moment, causing a price hike...
IoT is our fueature.
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@izzion is this a smart thermostat problem and not one that exists with normal thermostats too? Don't most people have their heating set to come on when it's cold enough at a specific time in the morning?
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@loopback0 Left-pondians vs. right-pondians.
Night reduction may be common on the right side since the neolithical, but on the left side they never needed to care about energy prices.
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
@izzion Don't most people have their heating set to come on when it's cold enough at a specific time in the morning?
That’s kind of the whole point of a thermostat: turn on when the temperature drops below a certain value. Even forty years ago, the more high-end ones for central heating could have both a “day” and a “night” temperature set, as well as the times to switch from one to the other.
Though I guess that if your thermostat is smart enough to turn on when energy prices drop, rather than only when the temperature does, a lot of them would switch on at almost exactly the same time. That’s a specific problem that doesn’t exist if it’s only based on the time of day, because not everyone gets out of bed at the same time.
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@Gurth said in Internet of shit:
That’s kind of the whole point of a thermostat: turn on when the temperature drops below a certain value.
Duh.
I don't know anyone who heats their house overnight while they're asleep though. The heating is off overnight even if the temperature drops below what's set on the thermostat, and then comes on at some point in the morning.
If you assume everyone has their heating turn on at 6am (like the article does) then even without a smart thermostat everyone's heating comes on at the same time if it's cold enough.I don't see how the supposed problem is specific to a smart thermostat, but maybe as @BernieTheBernie said it's an issue where people use their heating differently.
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@Gurth said in Internet of shit:
That’s a specific problem that does
n’t exist if it’s only based on the time of day, because not everyone gets out of bed at the same time.... exist because everyone just uses the factory settings instead of programming the item to fit his own schedule.
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@loopback0 because if left to their own devices people will set the thermostat for a time that fits their rhythm. I wouldn’t turn on the heating for 6am when we don’t get out of bed until 8am (both WFH), and everyone’s different.
The issue is that people don’t know how to change it on the smart thermostat, and/or don’t know they can so they’re all bang on 6am.
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@Arantor said in Internet of shit:
The issue is that people don’t know how to change it on the smart thermostat, and/or don’t know they can so they’re all bang on 6am.
The issue is really just PEBTAC then. Which still applies to normal thermostats.
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@loopback0 sure but with non internet of shit ones, it is usually pretty obvious how you drive it…
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@Arantor said in Internet of shit:
The issue is that people don’t know how to change it on the smart thermostat, and/or don’t know they can so they’re all bang on 6am.
Or to quote from the article:
most homeowners use the smart thermostat’s factory-default settings. Evidence showed that residents remain confused about how to operate their thermostats and are often unable to program it, the authors said.
I suspect that a compounding issue with smart thermostats may be that they have their clocks synchronized over the internet. So when they switch on "at the same time" that's meant quite literally, within a few milliseconds of each other, producing a much stronger spike. "Dumb" timed thermostats in contrast probably can't even easily be set to within much more than a minute's precision, so they will switch on in a somewhat staggered manner even if they are set to the "same" time, which presumably would be less tough on the grid.
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That sounds like something that's easy to fix in firmware - add a random time offset with a range of -5...+5 minutes or so.
(Of course, since we're talking about IoT, the first version will seed the random generator based only on the clock itself, thus defeating the purpose )
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
@izzion is this a smart thermostat problem and not one that exists with normal thermostats too? Don't most people have their heating set to come on when it's cold enough at a specific time in the morning?
I have mine (non-smart!) programmed to fallback to 55 at 10pm and back up to 70 at 5:30a. Before WFH, I also did a setback from 7a to 5p. (My thermo has M-F and Sa-Su programming, with 4 cycles in each)
This thermo is a really dumb one - on/off exactly when I say. A previous one I had would learn how long it took to heat up and adjust the ramp up time so it was the set temp at the set time.
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@Arantor said in Internet of shit:
@loopback0 sure but with non internet of shit ones, it is usually pretty obvious how you drive it…
Mine overloads a couple of the buttons.
setup
works differently depending on weather the thermo is turned off/heat - and I always forget that when I try changing things (considering how often that happens).
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
@izzion is this a smart thermostat problem and not one that exists with normal thermostats too? Don't most people have their heating set to come on when it's cold enough at a specific time in the morning?
Not really. You allow the temperature to go lower at night when you're sleeping under a blanket and have it warm up more for when you're out of bed. The point is that the "cold enough" temperature changes at some point at night and in the morning.
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
@Gurth said in Internet of shit:
That’s kind of the whole point of a thermostat: turn on when the temperature drops below a certain value.
Duh.
I don't know anyone who heats their house overnight while they're asleep though. The heating is off overnight even if the temperature drops below what's set on the thermostat, and then comes on at some point in the morning.Really? Maybe it depends on how cold it gets where you live?
If you assume everyone has their heating turn on at 6am (like the article does) then even without a smart thermostat everyone's heating comes on at the same time if it's cold enough.
People would do it at different times depending on when they wake up. The smart thermostats have a timer and apparently 6am is a common default. We have ours set to start warming up the house around 5am since people start getting up at my house in the winter.
I don't see how the supposed problem is specific to a smart thermostat, but maybe as @BernieTheBernie said it's an issue where people use their heating differently.
Because the smart thermostats have timers with defaults.
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@boomzilla said in Internet of shit:
The point is that the "cold enough" temperature changes at some point at night and in the morning.
Yeah and this happens whether you've got a smart thermostat or a dumb thermostat and a timer.
@boomzilla said in Internet of shit:
People would do it at different times depending on when they wake up. The smart thermostats have a timer and apparently 6am is a common default.
I had missed the bit about 6am being a default the first time I read the article, but people buying a smart thermostat (or moving into a house with one already fitted) and then not bothering to read the instructions about how to change the timer can't be that common. People managed it before smart thermostats.
@boomzilla said in Internet of shit:
Because the smart thermostats have timers with defaults
Timers with defaults was a thing with heating long before smart thermostats.
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
people buying a smart thermostat (or moving into a house with one already fitted) and then not bothering to read the instructions about how to change the timer can't be that common.
: Hands off the keyboard. Your WTDWTF registration card, please.
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@Zerosquare said in Internet of shit:
Your WTDWTF registration card, please.
I seem to have misplaced it, officer.
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:*sigh*
Look, it's Friday and my shift is ending soon. I'll only give you a verbal warning this time, but don't do that again, okay?
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
@Zerosquare said in Internet of shit:
Your WTDWTF registration card, please.
I seem to have misplaced it, officer.
I thought the more appropriate answer was "I can't reach it from here ".
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
I had missed the bit about 6am being a default the first time I read the article, but people buying a smart thermostat (or moving into a house with one already fitted) and then not bothering to read the instructions about how to change the timer can't be that common. People managed it before smart thermostats.
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
@boomzilla said in Internet of shit:
Because the smart thermostats have timers with defaults
Timers with defaults was a thing with heating long before smart thermostats.
I dunno...I've had a couple of those and neither had a default set where it would change the target temperature.
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@boomzilla said in Internet of shit:
@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
I had missed the bit about 6am being a default the first time I read the article, but people buying a smart thermostat (or moving into a house with one already fitted) and then not bothering to read the instructions about how to change the timer can't be that common. People managed it before smart thermostats.
My question is usually why? Why does a switch need an app that doesn’t work without gps access?
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@boomzilla said in Internet of shit:
@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
I had missed the bit about 6am being a default the first time I read the article, but people buying a smart thermostat (or moving into a house with one already fitted) and then not bothering to read the instructions about how to change the timer can't be that common. People managed it before smart thermostats.
Have y’all tried programming these fucking thermostats? I’ve actually read the instruction manual (not sure if it counted at as “smart” but it’s got a screen) and I still couldn’t figure it out.
These things are Steve Jobs’s worst nightmare.
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@topspin said in Internet of shit:
Have y’all tried programming these fucking thermostats? I’ve actually read the instruction manual (not sure if it counted at as “smart” but it’s got a screen) and I still couldn’t figure it out.
These things are Steve Jobs’s worst nightmare.These days, you can get that experience in an app...
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@topspin I think there’s a common problem with a lot of things that are now computerised but weren’t in their original form: the companies that make them are not computer companies. Apple, Microsoft and, I suppose, Google have computer UI pretty well down, but almost everyone else who sells devices that are basically computers in disguise, seems to do some combination of 1) copying PC or phone UI, and 2) completely original ideas that may make sense to them but not to anyone used to any other kind of device. Testing the device’s UI with actual users who haven’t been taught how to seems to happen exactly never.
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@Gurth said in Internet of shit:
Testing
the device’s UI with actual users who haven’t been taught how toseems to happen exactly never.
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@loopback0 said in Internet of shit:
people buying a smart thermostat (or moving into a house with one already fitted) and then not bothering to read the instructions about how to change the timer can't be that common
Like people buying highest security devices, who then do not care to replace the factory default password with their own password?
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"We care about the climate, so we're going to discontinue some products."
To send the ones in people's hometo the landfill? Sounds more like a money thing where existing installations are starting to cost too much for cloud-hosting...
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https://nitter.net/chriskramerpr/status/1547981916946632711
EDIT: Context:
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@Arantor said in Internet of shit:
@loopback0 sure but with non internet of shit ones, it is usually pretty obvious how you drive it…
I'm pretty sure my non-smart unit is incorrectly programmed. It's not obvious at all how to do so, unless you're a programmer.
To get around this, the temperature-sensitive tenant religiously presses the "down" button twice every day at the same time.
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@JBert Seems it didn't onebox...
Another try but with pictures now:
Apparently the release of a pop artist's lesson broke the system?