Antivaxers
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
Last year, I knew someone that died of the flu at 60. I get the flu vax now.
My folks asked a doctor about the flu vaccine and why there was a new one every year when I was younger and they were getting my siblings and me vaccinated. He said it's because the virus mutates (much like the common cold virus), so the old vaccines don't work any more. He also said that the difference for someone in normal good health is that they'll get over the flu about a day or two sooner with the vaccine than without. Beyond that, it's really only dangerous to people with weak immune systems. (Of course, any disease is more dangerous to them.)
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@dkf Why not all three!
Triggering settled down after seeing my 2 day old niece for the first time.
Her daddy tells me to sing to her when she was cranky...when I told him I sang Prince to my daughter he's like go ahead.
Oh no! My daughter no longer the baby of that side of the family.
Dammit....I don't think my baby rabies (I think we need a vaccine emoji) shots are up to date. :
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@djls45 said in Antivaxers:
@Karla said in Antivaxers:
Last year, I knew someone that died of the flu at 60. I get the flu vax now.
My folks asked a doctor about the flu vaccine and why there was a new one every year when I was younger and they were getting my siblings and me vaccinated. He said it's because the virus mutates (much like the common cold virus), so the old vaccines don't work any more. He also said that the difference for someone in normal good health is that they'll get over the flu about a day or two sooner with the vaccine than without. Beyond that, it's really only dangerous to people with weak immune systems. (Of course, any disease is more dangerous to them.)
Yeah, my ped said he gets his every year hoping to be vaccinated by one that will help avoid the next pandemic.
They do their best guess. Some years have a better matches than others.
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We asked our pediatrician why the schedule has so many different vaccines at the same time. Apparently there's a benefit to combining, allowing a lower dose for a given effectiveness. The More You Know.
I know socially a pediatrician who is hooked into the vaccine policy process. They're definitely looking forward to getting some statistics out of California in the next decade or so.
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@Greybeard said in Antivaxers:
We asked our pediatrician why the schedule has so many different vaccines at the same time. Apparently there's a benefit to combining, allowing a lower dose for a given effectiveness. The More You Know.
That sounds like
. I tried to Google it and the results are all referring to combination vaccines, like MMR, i.e. multiple vaccines delivered in a single injection. If you were actually wondering why they needed to poke your kid a bunch of different times in one visit, that wouldn't be the true answer to your question. More likely the actual answer was "needs fewer appointments, easier to schedule", i.e. more convenient, for both you and the doctor's office... plus you'd probably have to pay a co-pay for each visit, so breaking them up into more visits would likely cost more.
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
Dammit....I don't think my baby rabies (I think we need a vaccine emoji) shots are up to date. :
Although, it's wrong... from looking at the position of the plunger, it should be almost completely empty, but it's full.
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@anotherusername
or 
?
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@Yamikuronue first the one, then the other.
If I recall correctly...
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@anotherusername said in Antivaxers:
@Karla said in Antivaxers:
Dammit....I don't think my baby rabies (I think we need a vaccine emoji) shots are up to date. :
Although, it's wrong... from looking at the position of the plunger, it should be almost completely empty, but it's full.
I looked for needle.
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@Karla is it in :haystack:?
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@Jaloopa LOL
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I just had FB friend send me and my husband this link because I post anti-vax memes.
He and his girlfriend are beyond woo (vegan, I think dude mentioned he was an Indigo child). But they are pro-2A and I have so few friends that are.
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@Karla So reading that report, it says that some of the reported side effects included Autism. Meaning kids got diagnosed with autism and the parents are like...well must be the vaccine.
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@russ0519 Not to mention that the article claims the FDA is making the assertion that the link is there, while the "supporting document" was generated by the manufacturer based on
@russ0519 said in Antivaxers:
reported side effects
and then submitted to the FDA. The article is bullshit.
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@russ0519 said in Antivaxers:
@Karla So reading that report, it says that some of the reported side effects included Autism. Meaning kids got diagnosed with autism and the parents are like...well must be the vaccine.
The article also says that glucose and MSG cause autism, so I guess I can't eat bread or Chinese food anymore or I'll get another autism.
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@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
The article also says that glucose and MSG cause autism, so I guess I can't eat bread or Chinese food anymore or I'll get another autism.
So you admit that you eat bread and chinese food and you got autism?
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@error said in Antivaxers:
Like it's their solemn fucking duty to correct all those poor souls who are wrong on the Internet.
Except that they're the ones who are wrong.
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My husband was out with one of the big kids when he received the message from our anti-vax friend. Since he was driving, she was checking messages on his phone.
She asked him are we going to argue or let Karla eviscerate them.
I left the conversation. They laughed when the notification came in.
I am not going to waste my time arguing someone's religion. Especially, privately, so I can't make you look like an idiot.
I respect the Libertarian argument that government shouldn't force it. I disagree in this case, though I respect it.
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- a baby usually cries when something bad happen to him/her.
- They usually cry when we give vaccines.
- Nobody know what's good for you better than yourself, I read it somewhere in this forum.
- Vaccines are bad.
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
I respect the Libertarian argument that government shouldn't force it. I disagree in this case, though I respect it.
A government's job is to keep its citizens safe. Not being dead is a big part of being safe.
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@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
@Karla said in Antivaxers:
I respect the Libertarian argument that government shouldn't force it. I disagree in this case, though I respect it.
A government's job is to keep its citizens safe. Not being dead is a big part of being safe.
I agree to the extent that government's job is to keep us safe from others. It is not government's job to keep us safe from ourselves.
I was just saying, that I respected the libertarian argument as opposed to the anti-science argument.
My husband replied:
No. Scientific. Data. This is not an admission, but they are required to print possible side effects if even 1 USER reports it.
Dude that sent it...left the conversation. Hopefully that means he things he cannot change our beliefs so he will stop trying, #winning
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
I agree to the extent that government's job is to keep us safe from others. It is not government's job to keep us safe from ourselves.
Not taking vaccine you threaten the health and lives of other people. As vaccines aren't 100% effective, we depend on everyone taking it to get rid of diseases.
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@candlejack1 said in Antivaxers:
@Karla said in Antivaxers:
I agree to the extent that government's job is to keep us safe from others. It is not government's job to keep us safe from ourselves.
Not taking vaccine you threaten the health and lives of other people. As vaccines aren't 100% effective, we depend on everyone taking it to get rid of diseases.
I know and that is exactly why I disagree.
Have you seen my previous posts above?
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@Karla Bull shit, on that article. It even quotes " Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine."
ETA:
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@FrostCat said in Antivaxers:
@Karla Bull shit, on that article. It even quotes " Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine."
ETA:
Reading
to posting. 
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@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
A government's job is to keep its citizens safe. Not being dead is a big part of being safe.
You can die in many ways besides getting the illness you haven't been vaccinated against. I had a neighbor who died by falling off the roof of his house. Should the government take some actions to eliminate the risk of falling off the roofs from people's lives? I bet you'd be all for banning all the buildings that are more than 10 feet high. It's only natural the govt wants citizens safe and not dead, right?
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@Gąska said in Antivaxers:
@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
A government's job is to keep its citizens safe. Not being dead is a big part of being safe.
You can die in many ways besides getting the illness you haven't been vaccinated against. I had a neighbor who died by falling off the roof of his house. Should the government take some actions to eliminate the risk of falling off the roofs from people's lives? I bet you'd be all for banning all the buildings that are more than 10 feet high. It's only natural the govt wants citizens safe and not dead, right?
My previous post:
I agree to the extent that government's job is to keep us safe from others. It is not government's job to keep us safe from ourselves.
Mandatory vaccines protect the immunocompromised from stupid over-privileged people who would rather a dead child than an autistic child.
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
I agree to the extent that government's job is to keep us safe from others. It is not government's job to keep us safe from ourselves.
Mandatory vaccines protect the immunocompromised from stupid over-privileged people who would rather a dead child than an autistic child.
What we really need to do is figure out what causes austism to shut these people up. Of course then they will find some other reason to hate vaccines.
Since due to their refusal to vaccinate, polio will make a comeback, and they will point to this very scientific paper linking ice cream to polio.
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My mom tried to convince me that I need to eat more fish by saying that omega 3 fatty acids are important for health. I accused her of selling
snakefish oil, so we looked it up on Wikipedia. The article consists of a bunch of paragraphs reading "[possible medical reason that omega 3 fatty acids might be good for you] has been shown to not be linked to omega 3 fatty acids in a clinical study". All of the other Google results on the first page of results were websites trying to sellsnakefish oil pills.If we can convince the people who believe fish oil does anything useful that it causes autism, we can probably solve every problem in the world.
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@ben_lubar Fish tastes great.
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
Mandatory vaccines protect the immunocompromised from stupid over-privileged people who would rather a dead child than an autistic child.
I wasn't saying that mandatory vaccines are wrong. I was saying that @ben_lubar's argument for mandatory vaccines is wrong.
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@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
If we can convince the people who believe fish oil does anything useful that it causes autism, we can probably solve every problem in the world.
@Mikael_Svahnberg would be beyond autistic if fish oil caused that
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@candlejack1 I prefer mine in brine.
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@russ0519 said in Antivaxers:
What we really need to do is figure out what causes austism to shut these people up.
I wish I could upvote this more than once.
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
the libertarian argument
Which is... not very libertarian I think. They're all about freedom, but they're also quite heavy on the whole "your fist-my nose" thing.
Though I guess there are two kinds of libertarians - those who believe humans in general are responsible and should be given freedom to exercise this responsibility, and those who believe humans in general are dumb as a bag of rocks and the only way to teach them anything is to let them suffer the consequences of their mistakes.
Though that last one might just be me.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Antivaxers:
@Karla said in Antivaxers:
the libertarian argument
Which is... not very libertarian I think. They're all about freedom, but they're also quite heavy on the whole "your fist-my nose" thing.
Though I guess there are two kinds of libertarians - those who believe humans in general are responsible and should be given freedom to exercise this responsibility, and those who believe humans in general are dumb as a bag of rocks and the only way to teach them anything is to let them suffer the consequences of their mistakes.
Though that last one might just be me.
I think it is probably was a bell curve between the two extremes and because so many are so protected from the consequence of their mistake...it is turning into a plateau.
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@Karla said in Antivaxers:
I think it is probably was a bell curve
When it comes to human intelligence, I suspect the correct term is a bell end curve.
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@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
My mom tried to convince me that I need to eat more fish by saying that omega 3 fatty acids are important for health. I accused her of selling
snakefish oil, so we looked it up on Wikipedia. The article consists of a bunch of paragraphs reading "[possible medical reason that omega 3 fatty acids might be good for you] has been shown to not be linked to omega 3 fatty acids in a clinical study".Not entirely. Against the one I take it for - inflammation, in particular joint pain - it says it has been shown to possibly have some effect. I freely admit that I don't really know it's not all or partly a placebo effect: it's a damn good impressive one if it is and I'll keep it.
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@CarrieVS placebo is impressive and strong, thats why lots of bullshit persist for so long
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@candlejack1 said in Antivaxers:
placebo is impressive and strong
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@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
If we can convince the people who believe fish oil does anything useful that it causes autism, we can probably solve every problem in the world.
I actually like the idea of creating myths to replace much more harmful myths. It's worth a try at least.
We should see if we can get the government to create myths about the government creating myths to distract people from the truth.
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...
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@anotherusername said in Antivaxers:
I tried to Google it and the results are all referring to combination vaccines
I don't see why referring to combination vaccines lessens the validity. One would think that bundling into a combination vaccine would be a fairly straightforward way to ensure such vaccines get so combined for any lower dose to get the expected benefit.
The result I found mentions that concomitant use studies are required to add any vaccine to the schedule at the same age as an existing scheduled vaccine.
That link also mentions reduced effectiveness for live viral vaccines given between one and 28 days of each other.
I suppose I could ask my contact for more specific citations, but CBA.
plus you'd probably have to pay a co-pay for each visit, so breaking them up into more visits would likely cost more.
Which is why that particular conspiracy theory doesn't make sense. Since the doctor's office gets paid per visit, it seems unlikely they'd lie just to reduce the number of visits.
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@Greybeard said in Antivaxers:
Since the doctor's office gets paid per visit, it seems unlikely they'd lie just to reduce the number of visits.
Sometimes doctors are just nice----
bitter laughter okay, even I can't sell that one. Fuck doctors.
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@Yamikuronue said in Antivaxers:
@Greybeard said in Antivaxers:
Since the doctor's office gets paid per visit, it seems unlikely they'd lie just to reduce the number of visits.
Sometimes doctors are just nice----
bitter laughter okay, even I can't sell that one. Fuck doctors.
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@Greybeard said in Antivaxers:
I don't see why referring to combination vaccines lessens the validity.
It doesn't. It was a valid and correct answer, just to a different question.
One would think that bundling into a combination vaccine would be a fairly straightforward way to ensure such vaccines get so combined for any lower dose to get the expected benefit.
Not all vaccines come in a combination. Hence the need to poke your kid 6 or 10 times in a single visit. (That may be a slight exaggeration... actually I don't know.)
reduced effectiveness for live viral vaccines given between one and 28 days of each other
Okay, so there's some fact to it apparently, but you're still not there every month. The schedule starts jumping... 6 mo, 9 mo, 1 year, and you get a bunch of different vaccines; maybe they have to be 1 month apart, but there's many months where you get none, then a visit where you get a whole bunch. Still no explanation why they don't just have you come in for a different vaccine every month, other than my "conspiracy theory" of that being somewhat inconvenient for all parties involved.
the doctor's office gets paid per visit
Do they? You pay a copay for each visit. The insurance company pays for each vaccination. While I'd assume that the doctor's office would get a little more for 6 visits with 1 vaccine per visit than they'd get for 1 visit with all 6, it's still probably not worth the trouble. It's also a lot more work for them: they'd have to repeat the check-in process 6 times to spend 5 seconds injecting the kid each time, as opposed to once and then spending 10 or 15 minutes. And they do have some job security: it's not like people are going to stop having kids, or stop bringing them in (despite the antivax movement's best effort).
Also then you'd have parents asking the opposite question, because it'd be super inconvenient to bring their kid every month for the entire first year or so.
It's probably a mixture of both reasons. They're on a monthly schedule because they have to be at least that far apart, but the schedule puts a bunch on one month and then skips because it's more convenient that way.
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@anotherusername said in Antivaxers:
You pay a copay for each visit. The insurance company pays for each vaccination. While I'd assume that the doctor's office would get a little more for 6 visits with 1 vaccine per visit than they'd get for 1 visit with all 6, it's still probably not worth the trouble.
The doctor gets paid for an office visit, no matter how much or little he/she does during the visit. (Of course, if he/she does more than just the visit, he/she gets paid for the vaccinations or other procedures he/she does in addition to the simple visit.) Even if you just say, "Hi, doc; feel fine this month," he/she gets paid for his/her time and that of the nurse who takes your temperature and blood pressure, the assistant who checks you in, etc.
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@ben_lubar said in Antivaxers:
A government's job is to keep its citizens safe. Not being dead is a big part of being safe.
Libertarians have an incredibly narrow (and highly self-serving) definition of what "safe" means in this particular context. Keeping your neighbor from willfully killing you with a knife falls within the definition, but keeping your neighbor from willfully killing you with a germ doesn't.
@Gąska said in Antivaxers:
I had a neighbor who died by falling off the roof of his house. Should the government take some actions to eliminate the risk of falling off the roofs from people's lives? I bet you'd be all for banning all the buildings that are more than 10 feet high. It's only natural the govt wants citizens safe and not dead, right?
The Law of Moses actually contained a specific requirement to put a "battlement" around the roof of your house so that people who were up on the roof (which was apparently a common thing in their culture) wouldn't accidentally fall off.
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@masonwheeler said in Antivaxers:
keeping your neighbor from willfully killing you with a germ
I'd rather if you kept facts and shoulder aliens separate.
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