<abbr title="Yet Another <abbr title="Gun Wars 2">GW2</abbr> Topic">YAGT</abbr>
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99 posts without a penis reference...that's gotta be a new record for a gun flamewar!
I actually got dead-last place, by a long shot. I'm used to handgun matches, where I'm probably in the 40 - 45th percentile at least in the local crowd. Those rifle competitors are a totally different breed of human, I don't know what world they come from.
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I got a kick out of this and had to cross-post:
@Lorne_Kates said:
Did they get to do some sort of dumb-ass "mandatory training", that involves watching a 30 year old video on ladder safety? Yup. Did they get to fill in a webpage afterwards to "prove" they watched it, because teachers are little children, and not professional adults, and should be treated as such? Yup. Did that webpage crash, because it was designed by an idiot who never thought that, since everyone in the entire board will be doing this training all at once, it should maybe scale up to more than 5 people using it? Yup.
Back to guns, this paragraph actually describes 100% of the state-mandated firearms training I have received.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
"Those people live on drugs and guns and "street cred" where you gotta shoot people to make it as a rapper. "
The racist undertones are there, when you've heard this shit enough times.
Are you saying that only black people do drugs and rap? Who's the racist?
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Back to guns, this paragraph actually describes 100% of the state-mandated firearms training I have received.
The state-mandated course I took pursuant to applying to CCW was far more useful.
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I was a child. I am not a child anymore. Once I was no longer a child, he stopped controlling my access to them, stopped controlling my attitude toward them and stopped controlling my impact on society.
So you're an uncontrolled gun nut. Is that the point you're making?
Yet, I still have not shot anyone.
Thank you for you anecdote.
The only controls I have seen proposed are ones that will only control a law-abiding person's access to them, and won't do a damned thing about crime. That seems like a shitty trade-off to me.
"Children are being murdered by legally owned guns."
"Oh well. What can we do?"tanks
Guns cause way more good than harm.
I'm sure those people's enjoyment is of great comfort to the friends and family of the dead.
gun bans
You keep using that term, and I haven't. It's hard to have a rational argument with a group of people who are literally incapable of hearing what you're saying. Imagine trying to have an argument with someone over what shade of blue to pick for the curtains, but every time you mention it all they hear is "SOMEONE IS COMING TO STEAL MY RED CURTAINS!"
And yes, it is well out of reach of children... The rest of the guns are under lock and key in the basement.
And how do you guarantee that? Again, all the link I cited above were from people improperly conceal-carrying a loaded weapon, or keeping legally owned weapons on their premises, but not restricting access to them. For Sandy Hook, the shitwad's mother kept an arsenal of weapons at home for fun, despite knowing her son was mentally unstable.
You ask all the Chinese people who've been killed in knife massacres
The series of (maybe) unrelated school attacks? 25 dead. That was 7 attacks over 2 years. America will have over 7 gun mass shootings in 2 weeks. The current theory is mental instability.
The train terror attack? 33 dead.
So unless you're
, are you suggesting that because some Chinese people got stabbed, we should be okay with tiny bodies piling up? I thought America was supposed to be "better than" the other countries.You can't just ban anything that can potentially be dangerous
I'll point you again to where I ask for a cite for where I said "bad".
Kids drink the drain cleaner and die
Drain cleaners are clearly labeled as dangerous. There's massive public education campaigns about it. It has child-proof caps. Parents are told to keep it locked up, or in a child-proof cabinet. If these steps weren't taken, Draino Corp would be sued to shit in an instant because kids dying from their product is unnacceptable. Also, people don't "open carry" drain cleaner. People don't use drain cleaner for fun at a BBQ (well-- I'm sure there's YouTube science videos that are edge cases). Owning Drain Cleaner isn't glorified in movies, and ingrained into the very personality of the culture.
fall out the window
Again, windows in high apartments don't open fully without tampering. There's massive public education about window safety. People don't open carry open windows (Portals?). Jumping out windows to your death isn't a glorified activity. And when a child does fall and die. And things HAVE been done about it. Rough numbers, about 5000 injuries per year in 2013. Not deaths. Having trouble finding the exact stats on how many of those injuries become fatal. Say 10-20%. But this is telling:
Specifically:
“Child safety” window screens made of steel are available and are used in new construction in some areas. These screens can withstand 67.5 kg (150 lb) of pressure, similar to the standard for window guards,,, The installation of window guards is a proven preventive strategy. In 1976, the New York City Board of Health, ... passed a law requiring the owners of multiple-story dwellings to provide window guards in apartments where children 10 years and younger reside. ... the pilot program resulted in a 35% reduction in deaths attributable to falls from windows and a 50% reduction in incidents; no child fell from a window equipped with a window guard. The mandatory program resulted in a reduction of up to 96% in admissions to local hospitals for the treatment of window-fall-related injuries.
So even though easy to open screens are "fun" and a convenience (fresh air, leaning out window, etc), a mandatory law put strict controls on home owners and building companies, and almost completely eliminated child death from falls.
Don't come to a gun thread and complain about racism.
The complaint isn't with the stats. It's with the attitude that comes with it. "We don't need gun control laws. It's just a bunch of niggers shooting each other for their shoes"
It's the same as, your example about sexual debate and religion, as the difference between discussing teen pregnancy and STD statistics in religious-driven Abstinence Only programs-- and say "God hates fags so that's why they have AIDS".
Actually, I'm glad you're here, because you're the guy who wants cars confiscated from drivers.
In the today and here and now, yes there are a fuckton of drivers who should have their cars confiscated because they are irresponsible assholes who can't operate a death machine safely in public.
As soon as we have reliable self-driving cars, yes, self-driving cars should be mandatory except for HEAVILY licensed individuals (and even then, only in certain circumstances and areas). Funny how again I say "control" you say "ban".
If it saves one life.
If it saves 30k lives. If it saves the lives of, say, 3 children and their grandfather who were murdered by a rich-fuck drunk driver because driving is fun and HE knows when he's fine enough to drive. (links in that other thread, I'm not up to digging up that story again).
Fuck you. Not my culture. Seriously, fuck you. That's bullshit. Do you really believe that?
Yes, your culture. And yes YOU BOOMZILLA SPECIFICALLY NOT ONE FUCKING POST AGO YOU DUMBSHIT.
If it saves one life.
We shouldn't control guns. Sure kids get murdered, but WHOA DUDE WE'RE OVERREACTING YOU WANT TO BAN GUNS AND TAKE AWAY MY BBQ NOT IN USA!
Go ahead and check out all the other replies in this thread that boil down to the same thing. "Sure, kids get murdered, but whatcha going to do? Shit happens. I want my guns".
Back to guns, this paragraph actually describes 100% of the state-mandated firearms training I have received.
And you're arguing that people are adequately trained to safely handle firearms? That's appalling!
Are you saying that only black people do drugs and rap? Who's the racist?
Also latinos and other brown people. Yeesh.
You go ask a racist-- "Hey, a bunch of people are doing drugs and rapping. What color is their skin?" See what answer you get.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Yes, your culture. And yes YOU BOOMZILLA SPECIFICALLY NOT ONE FUCKING POST AGO YOU DUMBSHIT.
No. Fuck you.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Go ahead and check out all the other replies in this thread that boil down to the same thing. "Sure, kids get murdered, but whatcha going to do? Shit happens. I want my guns".
That's not at all what they said. No more than you're saying, "Sure, kids get killed by cars, but whatcha going to do? Shit happens. I want my cars." I know I'm not going to change your opinion, but I'm going to call you out as despicable for voicing it.
@Lorne_Kates said:
You go ask a racist-- "Hey, a bunch of people are doing drugs and rapping. What color is their skin?" See what answer you get.
The right one?
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@Lorne_Kates said:
And you're arguing that people are adequately trained to safely handle firearms? That's appalling!
You obviously skipped over the part where I mentioned how my sister went from having never used a firearm to being proficient and exercising safe handling in about two hours, most of which was lecture time (aka me rambling). Gun safety isn't hard! It doesn't require hours and hours and hours of training, all it takes is a briefing over the 4 Big Rules, some common sense, and a couple minutes to go over a specific model if the shooter isn't familiar with it.
Same thing happened with my mom. By then I had my "course" shortened down to probably half an hour, and we went out and she was nailing steel plates with her new Glock 17 and doing better than some of the match shooters I know!
(Also, she has a crazy drunken neighbor who just had his kids taken away, then was caught stealing power from my mother because his electricity was disconnected, and now he's holed up inside his dark house because the police have a warrant for his arrest but not a search warrant and can't go in for him, or some crazy nonsense like that. I'm really glad she took the hour or two of practice to become proficient with a Glock 17.)
Edit to add: Both of the state-mandated CCW courses I've attended were mostly full of obvious stuff like "Don't point the gun at yourself," "Don't load your .45 with 9mm," "Don't insert your magazine upside-down," and then a 200-point list detailing all the places where you are not allowed to defend yourself.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
The series of (maybe) unrelated school attacks? 25 dead. That was 7 attacks over 2 years. America will have over 7 gun mass shootings in 2 weeks. The current theory is mental instability.
The train terror attack? 33 dead.
So unless you're
, are you suggesting that because some Chinese people got stabbed, we should be okay with tiny bodies piling up? I thought America was supposed to be "better than" the other countries.This "missing the point" flag is for you.
Idiots like you make claims that the US is some outlier in terms of mass murder, by misframing it as "mass shootings". Yet mass murders happen all over the place. Your "solution" to this problem, like all totalitarians, is not to address the actual problem, but to infringe the liberty of law-abiding citizens. Shorter Lorne Kates: "FrostCat should have his guns taken away because a lunatic misused his." Fuck you, Lorne Kates. You think someone should take my guns away, you come down here and try it yourself, you piece of shit.
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Also latinos and other brown people. Yeesh.
Wow, the racism is thick with you today! Apparently Lorne Kates, White Supremacist, thinks that white people don't do drugs and rap.
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said:
I'm just asking because in Sweden (Ninth place in the world considering the number of guns per capita), that figure is zero, which makes a lot of the US gun debate difficult for me to follow.
#[CITATION NEEDED]
I'm not going to hunt down "other crimes", since I don't know the status of the gun that assassinated Otto Ludvig Beckman.
School shootings, however:
- 1961 - Kungälv school shooting. Shithead owned his own gun.
- nothing. "Sweden hasn't experienced a school shooting since 1961 when a 17-year-old boy entered gym during a dance at a school in Kungälv in western Sweden and opened fire. " - http://www.thelocal.se/20130320/46828
- Though there was a shooting at a school, which is slightly different: http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/scandinavia/01/18/sweden.shooting/ Personal beef, two people not from the school came in, found the victim in the bathroom and shot him. However, because everyone involved were minors, I can't find any details about their names or the status of their gun. It is "a rare act of school violence in this Scandinavian country." - http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-39966865.html
Of course, Sweden is saying that a school shooting is "likely" due to ""Many people have access to hunting weapons, even if you can't go to just any store and buy a gun, access to them is nevertheless pretty wide"" - http://www.thelocal.se/20130320/46828
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Gun deaths per year in the US, per 10,000: 10.64
Compare that to Canada where we have gun control laws :
Gun deaths per year per 10,000 : 2.22 (0.51 homicides, 1.60 Suicides)
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Original claim:
Not to put oil on the water (which I guess is a bad idea in a flamewar), but does anyone have any numbers of how many "legal" guns are stolen or otherwise used in school shootings or other crimes?
I'm just asking because in Sweden (Ninth place in the world considering the number of guns per capita), that figure is zero, which makes a lot of the US gun debate difficult for me to follow.
Maybe I'm misreading the word "or" there, or perhaps the scare-quotes, but that original claim seems like complete garbage, and your links verify it is.
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Maybe I'm misreading the word "or" there, or perhaps the scare-quotes, but that original claim seems like complete garbage, and your links verify it is.
It is ambiguous. I read it as "How many shootings are done by the legal owner of a legal gun, that is their own gun? ALSO, how many shootings are done with an otherwise legally owned and registered gun, but not by the rightful owner?"
This is versus "How many shootings are done with a gun purchased illegally (second hand, black market, etc), which would not in any way be effected by gun control?"
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@Lorne_Kates said:
I'll point you again to where I ask for a cite for where I said "bad".
Assuming you mean "ban" (I'd dickweed you, but meh)... if not, then what the hell do you want?
@Lorne_Kates said:
Drain cleaners are clearly labeled as dangerous.
So are guns. Well, I'm not sure if the warning comes on the box, but if you don't realize guns are kind of lethal then you're either a kid that wouldn't be able to read the warning anyway, or you've been living under a rock.
@Lorne_Kates said:
There's massive public education campaigns about it.
There... are? Huh. Even then, the media kind of make sure you know that guns kill people too.
@Lorne_Kates said:
It has child-proof caps.
Guns have safety mechanisms too.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Parents are told to keep it locked up, or in a child-proof cabinet.
...okay, what are you trying to argue there? If your argument is "it's hard to get properly informed about gun safety", then... no, no it isn't. Any shooting instructor worth his salt won't even let you touch the gun until you know every rule of handling it.
As far as I can tell, you're just yelling "people are dying, we gotta do SOMETHING!" without really thinking about what that "something" would be. You want the guns "regulated", but how exactly? Should the FBI visit you every night to make sure your wapons are properly tucked in a cabinet? Should somebody stalk you to ensure your safety is always engaged?
The criminal negligence laws are there, and for exactly that reason. Leaving a gun in the open in a way that allows your kid to grab it and shoot his friends is already illegal.
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Should somebody stalk you to ensure your safety is always engaged?
My new SIG Sauer doesn't even have a (manual) safety on it.
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Compare that to Canada where we have gun control laws
What a coincidence. We have gun control laws, too!
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As far as I can tell, you're just yelling "people are dying, we gotta do SOMETHING!" without really thinking about what that "something" would be. You want the guns "regulated", but how exactly? Should the FBI visit you every night to make sure your wapons are properly tucked in a cabinet? Should somebody stalk you to ensure your safety is always engaged?
Obviously there is nothing in between "give that three year old a loaded gun" and "FBI agents creep into your house every night".
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We have gun control laws, too!
Yeah, just a little bit too permissive.
From http://www.businessinsider.com/canada-australia-japan-britain-gun-control-2013-1 :
There is no legal right to possess arms in Canada. It takes sixty days to buy a gun there, and there is mandatory licensing for gun owners. Gun owners pursuing a license must have third-party references, take a safety training course and pass a background check with a focus on mental, criminal and addiction histories.
Licensing agents are required to advise an applicant's spouse or next-of-kin prior to granting a license, and licenses are denied to applicants with any past history of domestic violence. Buyers in private sales of weapons must pass official background checks.
Canadian civilians aren't allowed to possess automatic weapons, handguns with a barrel shorter than 10.5 cm or any modified handgun, rifle or shotgun. Most semi-automatic assault weapons are also banned.
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It takes sixty days to buy a gun there, and there is mandatory licensing for gun owners.
This waiting period gets people killed.
New Jersey Woman Stabbed to Death by Ex While Waiting for Gun Permit
A New Jersey woman was murdered by her ex-boyfriend on Wednesday as she waited for approval from the state to buy a handgun.
Ban waiting periods. If it saves even one life...
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When did this forum become slightly right of Hermann Goering, exactly?
The gun conspiracy theories, the immigration thing, Boomzilla wanting to nuke Cuba, the constant tirades against fictional SJWs...
It's not even just the respectable conservative positions, it's the crazy conspiracy theory bullshit. If I wanted to read this, I'd visit FreeRepublic.com.
I guess the good news is we don't have any of those racist "H1B visas are destroying America!" fuckwads here. Yet.
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When did this forum become slightly right of Hermann Goering, exactly?
Never. Goering was a horrible leftist, AFAIC.
The gun conspiracy theories, the immigration thing, Boomzilla wanting to nuke Cuba, the constant tirades against fictional SJWs...
Just because you're into the oppression of the Cuba people, don't expect me to like your authoritarian fetishes.
it's the crazy conspiracy theory bullshit.
What are you talking about? In this thread?
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There... are? Huh. Even then, the media kind of make sure you know that guns kill people too.
Everyone knows guns kill people. But apparently reminding people "guns are fucking dangerous and require extreme care, special handling, and shouldn't just be a free-for all in terms of purchasing, owning and handling" is TEH NAZIS!
...okay, what are you trying to argue there? If your argument is "it's hard to get properly informed about gun safety", then... no, no it isn't. Any shooting instructor worth his salt won't even let you touch the gun until you know every rule of handling it.
- Earlier in the thread, someone (DISOUCRSE) said that government training is a joke. People are getting guns they shouldn't.
- Someone else downthread point points out that in Canada, guns are controlled-- you can only get certain kinds, requires showing you're somewhat sane. It isn't a free-for-all. And the deathrates are lower, and people who can responsibly enjoy guns still have them.
- Any discussion again comes down to any talk of control or restriction being "UR TAKING OUR GUNS AND NAZIS AND MAKING POLICE STATE", which makes having a sane, rational discussion impossible.
It's like trying to have a sane, rational discussion about responsible alcohol use with someone who is a off-their-ass drunk 24/7. You can't have that discussion until they sober up, but they won't sober up unless you can convince them the alcohol is clouding their entire worldview, but their world view won't be clear until after they're off the booze, and so on and so forth./
The criminal negligence laws are there, and for exactly that reason. Leaving a gun in the open in a way that allows your kid to grab it and shoot his friends is already illegal.
Those laws don't seem to be working too well. Maybe doing some preventative maintenance to better ensure people WON'T leave deadly shit like that lying around BEFORE selling it to them?
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Everyone knows guns kill people. But apparently reminding people "guns are fucking dangerous and require extreme care, special handling, and shouldn't just be a free-for all in terms of purchasing, owning and handling" is TEH NAZIS!
A free-for-all in terms of purchasing, owning and handling might describe Somalia or Syria, but it definitely doesn't describe the United States.
@Lorne_Kates said:
1) Earlier in the thread, someone (DISOUCRSE) said that government training is a joke. People are getting guns they shouldn't.
Government doesn't work. The solution is more government!
@Lorne_Kates said:
2) Someone else downthread point points out that in Canada, guns are controlled-- you can only get certain kinds, requires showing you're somewhat sane. It isn't a free-for-all. And the deathrates are lower, and people who can responsibly enjoy guns still have them.
Canada also has like 12 people and an elk. And who wants to go on a crime spree when there's only 6 hours of daylight and it's -15° outside?
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/The-Failure-of-Canadian-Gun-Control.htm
It is far from clear that the 1977 Canadian law has had any significant effect on crime or suicide in Canada. First of all, the law does not seem to be strictly enforced. As in America, judges usually give only suspended sentences or probation to defendants convicted of illegally possessing a gun, unless the person was carrying the gun for use in a crime.
Second, there seem to be plenty of
illegal guns still
available. Inspector Crampton, of the Toronto police, has
released a much-publicized report that claims a person would not
have to walk more than two kilometers "to pick up a hot piece."
Part of the illegal gun supply comes from stolen American guns,
but even without U.S. imports, the Canadian pool of illegal
weapons is more than sufficient for criminal purposes.As in the U.S., each long gun
purchase is registered by the
gun dealer; each handgun purchase is registered with the police.
The new registration system has had little impact. The recovery
rate for lost or stolen firearms has remained stable at about 4%
ever since 1934. (Indeed, one of the clear lessons from the gun
control experiences of Canada, Britain, Australia, and New
Zealand is that gun registration is massive waste of police
resources, because it has no effect at all on preventing or
solving crime.)In 1983, a study paid for by the
Canadian government did
conclude that the 1977 Act had had positive effects. However,
analysis by Dr. Paul Blackman, of the N.R.A., leads one to doubt
the study's conclusions.
For example, the government paper
noted that the per capita
firearm murder rate, after increasing from 1961 to 1975, declined
from 1975 to 1981. Since the gun control law only went into
effect after 1978 it hardly can be given credit for a trend begun
in 1975.In four major Canadian cities -- but
not the country as a
whole -- the percentage of firearms used in attempted murders did
drop significantly after 1978. Notably, the frequency of
attempted murders did not experience a similar drop. The fact
that attempted gun murders declined, but attempted murders did
not, supports the theory that if gun are less available, people
will choose other weapons with which to kill.
It is sometimes claimed that the
presence of guns causes a
huge amount of inter-family "domestic homicides" in the United
States. Take away the handguns, and angry family members won't
kill each other -- so the argument goes. In fact, after the
Canadian gun law took effect, domestic homicides did fall. But
they dropped even more sharply in America -- evidence that the
Canadian decline was not due to the new gun law.
As for other crimes, the use of
firearms in "rape and
indecent assault, assault, and woundings," was already low, and
showed no change. The robbery rate increased, and the use of
guns in robberies increased at a slightly slower rate. (Robbery
was up 38%, and gun use in robberies up 34%.)@Lorne_Kates said:
It's like trying to have a sane, rational discussion about responsible alcohol use with someone who is a off-their-ass drunk 24/7. You can't have that discussion until they sober up, but they won't sober up unless you can convince them the alcohol is clouding their entire worldview, but their world view won't be clear until after they're off the booze, and so on and so forth./
Very true. You are totally drunk-off-your-ass on an irrational fear and hatred of firearms. At this point I'm only arguing with you to present my case to the generally agnostic people in the middle, because your points are frankly misguided and it's plainly obvious to anyone who isn't blinded by an irrational fear of inanimate objects which get used for homicide about 0.00003% of the time (350M guns divided by 11K firearm homicides).
@Lorne_Kates said:
3) Any discussion again comes down to any talk of control or restriction being "UR TAKING OUR GUNS AND NAZIS AND MAKING POLICE STATE", which makes having a sane, rational discussion impossible.
@Lorne_Kates said:
Those laws don't seem to be working too well. Maybe doing some preventative maintenance to better ensure people WON'T leave deadly shit like that lying around BEFORE selling it to them?
Find a way to get government to enforce the existing laws that are already in place that are not being used. Cracking down on straw purchases and the black market would work wonders on the homicide-with-a-firearm rate. And please find a method that isn't "That mentally-ill man high on Prozac just murdered 18 people, we better put a bunch of new laws on @mott555 1500 miles away with his totally clean background because he's obviously dangerous!"
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What are you talking about? In this thread?
"Obama is the world's greatest gun salesman".
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@boomzilla said:
What are you talking about? In this thread?
"Obama is the world's greatest gun salesman".
That's just an example of your ignorance. I mean, @Powerlord made that correlation vs causation thing, but I think Obama was definitely a reason. It's certainly not a crazy conspiracy theory if you're familiar with stuff. Including stuff like figurative lang...ooohhhh...sorry, I see your point.
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I personally know more than a few gun owners who intentionally buy more guns and standard-capacity magazines just to spite our President.
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I do hope that (and I've generally seen support for this) we can look at revising who is allowed a firearm, and try to keep those restrictions tight. Most people seem to agree that's acceptable, and it hopefully will at least cut down on the mass murders a bit.
How about first we get the response times on questionable background checks fixed? There are cases where a mass shooter got a firearm because the extended background check was not completed within the three day window, so the gun store was allowed to complete the sale. A couple days after the window, the check comes back with red flags. In other cases, the background checks just failed to turn up the information that would have prevented the purchase from going through[1].
We don't need to tighten up the restrictions. We need to improve the process through which the background checks are performed.
[1] The shooter at the church in Charleston in June this year should not have been able to obtain a gun. In February he had confessed to a drug possession misdemeanor, in April he purchased a gun from a federally licensed dealer. The background check failed to turn up the drug conviction.
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I personally know more than a few gun owners who intentionally buy more guns and standard-capacity magazines just to spite our President.
How does that spite Obama, when he's never introduced any legislation for additional gun controls?
Give me a non-insane explanation. If there is one.
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This post is deleted!
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@Lorne_Kates said:
Drain cleaners are clearly labeled as dangerous. There's massive public education campaigns about it.
Really? I haven't seen any signs of public awareness campaigns.
@Lorne_Kates said:
It has child-proof caps.
I got past those when I was 1.5. I've seen other children of similar age do the same. They should really be called "arthritis-proof caps".
@Lorne_Kates said:
Drain cleaners are clearly labeled as dangerous. … Parents are told to keep it locked up, or in a child-proof cabinet.
Those points you got right.
@Lorne_Kates said:
There's massive public education about window safety.
is this "public education"you keep talking about? Is there some micro-verse in your head that runs PSAs about the dangers of windows and drain cleaners?@Lorne_Kates said:
You go ask a racist-- "Hey, a bunch of people are doing drugs and rapping. What color is their skin?" See what answer you get.
So because a racist will say that only blacks and latinos do drugs and rap, then anyone who mentions druggies and rappers must be racist? Your logic sucks belgium donkey balls, man.
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Really? I haven't seen any signs of public awareness campaigns.
You've never seen a Mr. Yuck sticker?
is this "public education"you keep talking about? Is there some micro-verse in your head that runs PSAs about the dangers of windows and drain cleaners?However, I've never seen a public education campaign about windows.
Although when I was a kid we got a lecture from a cop on the importance of checking that they were locked after we were burgled. (Joke's on the burglar-- the VCR he took was a Betamax.)
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How does that spite Obama, when he's never introduced any legislation for additional gun controls?
Fortunately, Congress and the people have stalled him out. So instead of legislation, he's been trying to do Executive Orders and other behind-the-scenes methods.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/27/news/assault-rifle-bullet-ban-obama-armor/index.html - Note, M855 is NOT armor piercing, they just say that because they want to ban non-lead ammo by redeclaring it to be armor-piercing while working with the EPA to ban lead ammo for environmental reasons, thus backdoor banning all ammo: http://www.examiner.com/article/epa-ammunition-ban-blocked-by-federal-court
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You've never seen a Mr. Yuck sticker?
Other than the images posted on here? Not for about 20 years.
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Yeah, that's part of what I'd like to see revised. Also, who tf thought letting them pass if the check didn't come back in time was a good idea?
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Yeah, that's part of what I'd like to see revised. Also, who tf thought letting them pass if the check didn't come back in time was a good idea?
It didn't matter when the FBI and ATF were doing their jobs right and a NICS check only took 5 minutes. The 3-day limit was designed to be an incentive for the government to be efficient.
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Right... and if they make a mistake (that never happens), you let a psycho get a gun?
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The entire premise of the American justice system is innocent until proven guilty, and that it is better in terms of liberty to occasionally let the guilty go free than to accidentally punish the innocent. Either way, mistakes will happen.
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The entire premise of the American justice system is innocent until proven guilty, and that it is better in terms of liberty to occasionally let the guilty go free than to accidentally punish the innocent. Either way, mistakes will happen.
This is not a criminal accusation.
It's a background check to see if someone's safe enough to carry a deadly weapon.If it fails to go through, the onus is on the guy getting the gun to figure out what happened - he's the one who initiated it in the first place. There is nowhere else in the government where it works like that.
I can't believe anyone actually thinks this makes sense - so, if I'm a psycho or similar, all I have to do is keep trying and hope the government loses my paperwork once - then I'm good to go!
It's insane.
You can't seriously be saying this is a good idea, right?
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I can't believe anyone actually thinks this makes sense - so, if I'm a psycho or similar, all I have to do is keep trying and hope the government loses my paperwork once - then I'm good to go!
Again, wasn't a problem until Obama and Friends started intentionally delaying NICS checks for petty harassment. They dropped the ball. The system didn't fail, the people in the government failed. Personally I think charges need to be filed in the case of the SC church shooter because that was criminal negligence on the government's part.
I mean, this is like blaming a lack of speed limit laws for a horrible car accident when the guy who caused the accident routinely drove 140 mph in a 55 zone and the police refused to stop him.
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Obama and Friends started intentionally delaying NICS checks for petty harassment
I mean, this is like blaming a lack of speed limit laws for a horrible car accident when the guy who caused the accident routinely drove 140 mph in a 55 zone and the police refused to stop him.
What?
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[citation needed]
This is mostly word-of-mouth at this point, but try talking to gun owners or gun stores. 3 - 4 years ago, a NICS check took 5 minutes, maybe 10 at most. Now they're routinely taking 2 - 3 days. There's negligence of some kind going on. Either the FBI is understaffed, which would be negligence upon those at the top who say we need "improved" background checks (whatever tf that actually means), or the FBI is intentionally ignoring NICS, which is negligence because they aren't doing their job, or perhaps there's some front-page worthy WTF-ery going on with bad practices and mismanagement. Regardless, the system was working, and now it isn't.
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What?
The government wasn't doing their job in stopping obvious illegal behavior. In the case of the car crash, there was a speed limit and it was illegal to drive faster (and something like 140 is probably out of civil and into criminal penalties). But the government dropped the ball by enforcing one law and much worse consequences happened.
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@sloosecannon said:
[citation needed]
This is mostly word-of-mouth at this point, but try talking to gun owners or gun stores. 3 - 4 years ago, a NICS check took 5 minutes, maybe 10 at most. Now they're routinely taking 2 - 3 days. There's negligence of some kind going on. Either the FBI is understaffed, which would be negligence upon those at the top who say we need "improved" background checks (whatever tf that actually means), or the FBI is intentionally ignoring NICS, which is negligence because they aren't doing their job, or perhaps there's some front-page worthy WTF-ery going on with bad practices and mismanagement. Regardless, the system was working, and now it isn't.
That's a big jump to say that's intentional to spite people getting guns. Especially when the failure mode is that they get the gun anyways.
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@sloosecannon said:
What?
The government wasn't doing their job in stopping obvious illegal behavior. In the case of the car crash, there was a speed limit and it was illegal to drive faster (and something like 140 is probably out of civil and into criminal penalties). But the government dropped the ball by enforcing one law and much worse consequences happened.
I got that part, what threw me off was
a lack of speed limit laws
Which would seem to preclude
@mott555 said:in a 55 zone
?
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Yes but I was explaining it nicely for people who haven't played before.
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I got that part, what threw me off was
mott555:
a lack of speed limit lawsWhich would seem to preclude
Yes, because gun control advocates tend to propose things that are already laws. Like in this case, a background check.
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@sloosecannon said:
I got that part, what threw me off was
mott555:
a lack of speed limit lawsWhich would seem to preclude
Yes, because gun control advocates tend to propose things that are already laws. Like in this case, a background check.
Oh, OK. I guess I didn't get @mott555's subtlety there...
Annyways, yeah I wasn't advocating laws that already exist, I was advocating improving the existing laws.
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What is the point in improving them, if we don't even enforce the ones we have?
