Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Benjamin-Hall I've seen both sides of that coin, I have other stories where the too-old-to-drive was my relative. And I know how hard it can be (
) for someone to realise they have to stop, but also to tell a loved-one to stop when they're still mentally sane -- after all, they might still be your father that you kind-of obeyed all your life and suddenly you are giving him an order!The same happens for almost any part of growing old (which sucks, overall), but driving has the added risk of harming other people (if they get scammed and loose money, at the very worst they might harm themselves, but it's unlikely they'll harm someone else).
This is one situation where I'm OK with the might of the state stepping in and saying "no, you can't do that." This way everyone in the family can be compassionate with the elderly ("oh it's so unfair") while internally being relieved that it happened.
My little L libertarian position, is that laws that protect you from others can be appropriate.
Re-testing drivers, at the very least as they get into the senior years and/or history of an accident likely caused by lose of skill, falls into this category. I do think there has to be some evidence of this protection that is not generated by those who might benefit financially for it.
But this isn't really relevant in this case, any abuse of it would/should fall under elder/caretaker/family abuse.
Where it the financial incentive matters relates a lot to business regulations. Many "protections" keep out competition from newcomers who cannot overcome the extremely costly regulation. Promoting and encouraging small businesses to compete is a good thing for customers and jobs.
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https://i.imgur.com/1t0bLAO.mp4
(enable sound)
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@Zerosquare Really no different than using jumper cables, but jankier. As long as it a sealed battery and you're not dumping sulfuric acid all over.
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Driving status Anyone ever notice "traffic standing waves"?
I was driving back from the Portland area down I-5 and got caught in a major slowdown for a bit. Stop and go traffic, despite not really being heavy amounts elsewhere. An accident, right? Well, there had been an accident, obviously, judging from the debris scattered on the road, not large enough to cause damage, but enough to notice. But there were no wrecked cars, no emergency vehicles, and hadn't been for, from what I could tell, quite a while (20-30 minutes minimum). Yet traffic was still acting like there was an active wreck, especially in my lane (which was where the debris was heavier). Again, there wasn't enough debris to be worth swerving away from. Just some bits of plastic and chewed up rubber. Yet traffic was acting like there was an active wreck.
I've seen it before, and it's always kinda weird how the "memory" seems to persist and propagate even to people who probably never saw the original incident.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Driving status Anyone ever notice "traffic standing waves"?
I was driving back from the Portland area down I-5 and got caught in a major slowdown for a bit. Stop and go traffic, despite not really being heavy amounts elsewhere. An accident, right? Well, there had been an accident, obviously, judging from the debris scattered on the road, not large enough to cause damage, but enough to notice. But there were no wrecked cars, no emergency vehicles, and hadn't been for, from what I could tell, quite a while (20-30 minutes minimum). Yet traffic was still acting like there was an active wreck, especially in my lane (which was where the debris was heavier). Again, there wasn't enough debris to be worth swerving away from. Just some bits of plastic and chewed up rubber. Yet traffic was acting like there was an active wreck.
I've seen it before, and it's always kinda weird how the "memory" seems to persist and propagate even to people who probably never saw the original incident.
Wasn't something on here a long time ago about traffic dynamics being similar to fluid dynamics?
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@Karla I probably posted it. I remember seeing an analysis of traffic flow as a compressible fluid flow, but I no longer have any idea where I saw it. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here before.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Driving status Anyone ever notice "traffic standing waves"?
I was driving back from the Portland area down I-5 and got caught in a major slowdown for a bit. Stop and go traffic, despite not really being heavy amounts elsewhere. An accident, right? Well, there had been an accident, obviously, judging from the debris scattered on the road, not large enough to cause damage, but enough to notice. But there were no wrecked cars, no emergency vehicles, and hadn't been for, from what I could tell, quite a while (20-30 minutes minimum). Yet traffic was still acting like there was an active wreck, especially in my lane (which was where the debris was heavier). Again, there wasn't enough debris to be worth swerving away from. Just some bits of plastic and chewed up rubber. Yet traffic was acting like there was an active wreck.
I've seen it before, and it's always kinda weird how the "memory" seems to persist and propagate even to people who probably never saw the original incident.
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Best Dukes Of Hazzard Impression? Watch As This Michigan Driver Launches His Malibu Over An Entire Overpass! - BangShift.com
The Duke boys did a LOT of far fetched stuff in their famed Charger, the General Lee, but most of it was pulled off with the help of some pretty talented stunt men and some clever video editing. With that said, we’ve also seen some pretty amazing stuff go down with no planning, like this […]
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Apparently Farmers Insurance is running an ad for their safe driver discount that ends with a scene with two cars waiting for each other at a 4 way stop and eventually a third car comes up and they’re all sitting there like “after you” for a while.
Whatever moron wrote the storyboard for that ad doesn’t know the first thing about driving safely.
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@HardwareGeek said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@izzion said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
two cats waiting for each other
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@izzion said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Apparently Farmers Insurance is running an ad for their safe driver discount that ends with a scene with two cars waiting for each other at a 4 way stop and eventually a third car comes up and they’re all sitting there like “after you” for a while.
Whatever moron wrote the storyboard for that ad doesn’t know the first thing about driving safely.
Every time I see that, I start to rage. "Don't you fucking idiots know anything about right-of-way??? Go back to driving school!"
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Should have taken another turn...
Driver rescued after car gets stuck atop trash compactor in Maine - UPI.com
Police and firefighters in Maine came to the rescue of a driver who apparently made a wrong turn at a garbage dump and ended up suspended over a trash compactor.
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@boomzilla Photoshop. But still funny.
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@dcon said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@izzion said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Apparently Farmers Insurance is running an ad for their safe driver discount that ends with a scene with two cars waiting for each other at a 4 way stop and eventually a third car comes up and they’re all sitting there like “after you” for a while.
Whatever moron wrote the storyboard for that ad doesn’t know the first thing about driving safely.
Every time I see that, I start to rage. "Don't you fucking idiots know anything about right-of-way??? Go back to driving school!"
I don't even drive and I know, car that gets there first goes, if undetermined the car on the right goes first.
I'm not sure what happens when facing each other and it cannot determined who got there first.
While most of the time I bitch about pedestrians in the bike lane, I've occasionally come across the overly polite pedestrian that is crossing on their right of way.
They see me coming and stop. No need, while yes, I am eating the light, I try to keep wide berth to pedestrians who have right of way based on their walking speed. I also go at a slower speed. If they have right of way, I do not want them to feel fear from me.
I've waved some on. Or I go so wide they see that they can go.
Now if someone doesn't have right of way. All bets are off.
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@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I'm not sure what happens when facing each other and it cannot determined who got there first.
If both are going straight through or both are turning right or both are turning left, it doesn't matter, because there's no conflict. If one is turning left and the other is either going straight through or turning right, the one turning left yields to the one that isn't, because left turn always yields to oncoming traffic.
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@HardwareGeek said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
I'm not sure what happens when facing each other and it cannot determined who got there first.
If both are going straight through or both are turning right or both are turning left, it doesn't matter, because there's no conflict. If one is turning left and the other is either going straight through or turning right, the one turning left yields to the one that isn't, because left turn always yields to oncoming traffic.
Oh derp. Can I blame being tired? It was a particularly long week at work. Can I blame not having driven, biked, or even walked across a street since mid-February? Can I blame tequila?
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@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Can I blame tequila?
For now, but don't try to use that excuse when you get your right-of-way wrong at a four way stop
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@hungrier said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Can I blame tequila?
For now, but don't try to use that excuse when you get your right-of-way wrong at a four way stop
Good point.
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Just spotted this in a grocery store parking lot
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@blek said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Just spotted this in a grocery store parking lot
Knockoff. Call the Coachline, then. Don't stick around unless you have a strong stomach.
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@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@hungrier said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Karla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Can I blame tequila?
For now, but don't try to use that excuse when you get your right-of-way wrong at a four way stop
Good point.
I don't think you should disregard tequila's viewpoint out of hand.
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And now for something on driving patterns: Automatic-only licenses are gaining in popularity here, with 20% of new licenses around here and 50% in Stockholm being automatic only. Cited student: "It's easier to focus on the driving [with automatic]." But, is it really? Easier to learn, yes. But in the long run, does automatic only make you a better and more aware driver from removing one aspect to think of, or does it make you less aware of the car as you end up in a constant "convenience mode" of not having to poke at car controls as much? Or does it not matter at all?
Or is the addition of modern convenience features like adaptve cruise control and lane assist a bigger threat to driver awareness regardless of transmission system?
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@Atazhaia I think the risk of inattention due to not having to do anything is largest on long-haul highway driving, where you rarely have to shift anyway.
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@Atazhaia I predict answers to your questions will fall in either of two categories:
or 
.I think it fits into the wider question, for almost any technology, of whether knowing/being closer to the
metal is better or worse than being abstracted away. Think assembler or C vs. high-level language (hey, it's a car thread, it needs computer analogies!), you'll see more or less the same arguments being made for both sides.
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@Atazhaia Why don't we tern that question around? EVs generally don't have a transmission at all. If EVs really are our bright future and ICE get phased out, knowing how to operate a manual will become irrelevant without considering the awareness or convenience.
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@Atazhaia More seriously though, I think it's a trend that's not gonna go away in any case, because people are lazy, so even if it were less safe (which I'm not sure it is), they'd want it anyway. Besides, I think finding out whether it is safer or not is impossible, because it is bundled with many other changes (e.g. regulations or road layout or car passive safety features) and because we're dealing with lives here there is no way to ever make rigorous experiments.
That said, my personal opinion is that it probably helps overall. Less mental load for purely mechanical aspects of driving means more brain time available for the rest. This doesn't mean that people actually use that free brain time for safer driving, but I can't see how it would really make things worse, given that which gear you are in is usually fairly irrelevant to whether you drive safely or not. Inattentive drivers are gonna be inattentive, regardless of the car they drive.
Relevant:
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Which would mean it ends up being an individual thing, and then we end up in the difficult place of deciding what is the best default when learning, as it typically can't be told until you have some experience. As a regular (manual) license allowed you to drive either type, which automatic-only limits you to only driving automatics.
@Applied-Mediocrity And the increase in EVs was mentioned as a leading cause in Stockholm as that's where that type of vehicle is gaining most in popularity.
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@Atazhaia I'd say the biggest difference comes in winter driving, where automatics are more likely to get you stuck somewhere.
But with mandatory anti-traction in modern cars, they're liable to behave just as badly anyway. So the point is becoming moot; you don't have full control over the wheels anyway.
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@Atazhaia said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Which would mean it ends up being an individual thing, and then we end up in the difficult place of deciding what is the best default when learning, as it typically can't be told until you have some experience. As a regular (manual) license allowed you to drive either type, which automatic-only limits you to only driving automatics.
I definitely think this is already the case right now.
Anecdotally, when my brother changed his car a couple of years ago, he bought a manual one (he had an automatic before) because his children were going to learn to drive 1-2 years after and he wanted them to learn on a manual, exactly for the reasons you say.
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@Atazhaia Is the automatic-only license much cheaper than the normal one?
Because if not, then I get the
reaction of "Don't young people have any pride anymore?".And also, are the young not worried that they might need the ability to drive a manual? For work reasons, etc.? Because making the driving school slightly easier for yourself in exchange of a lifelong potential handicap does not seem like a good deal to me.
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@acrow I think it's only cheaper in that it's easier to learn, meaning less time and money spent on lessons. But the cost of the tests I would imagine are the same.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Is the automatic-only license much cheaper than the normal one?
Don't know for Sweden.
In germany, you get an automatic-only license when you do the driving test on automatic. Same price, I think.
Electric vehicles have been mentioned already: they cannot be used in the driving test when you need a license covering manual transmission.
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@Atazhaia said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Or is the addition of modern convenience features like adaptve cruise control and lane assist a bigger threat to driver awareness regardless of transmission system?
For me, ACC is actually a boon to my attention capacity - because now I don't have to watch and adjust my speed all the time when driving in moderate to heavy traffic. This in turn frees me to catch more of the "big picture", i.e. who's behind me, who's coming up from the left, what's the traffic looking like beyond the guy in front of me and so on.
I'm not saying that I didn't do that before but now I can spare more attention on that aspect.
Plus, stop-and-go & jams have become much more of a non-issue - now I keep one hand on the wheel and the car does the rest. Particularly stop-and-go was annoying in that regard with me regularly shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd and then down again multiple times in the span if minutes.
And as long as it keeps at Level 2 (and enforces that), I have no issues.
@BernieTheBernie said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Is the automatic-only license much cheaper than the normal one?
Don't know for Sweden.
In germany, you get an automatic-only license when you do the driving test on automatic. Same price, I think.
Electric vehicles have been mentioned already: they cannot be used in the driving test when you need a license covering manual transmission.Yes, but you can "upgrade" afterwards by taking some additional lessons and a shorter test.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
And also, are the young not worried that they might need the ability to drive a manual?
Eh...I haven't driven one in a couple of decades.
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@PleegWat said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Atazhaia I think the risk of inattention due to not having to do anything is largest on long-haul highway driving, where you rarely have to shift anyway.
Heavy traffic is the other time it matters, not because it is likely, but because the consequences are more likely to be severe. That's also where automatics are best, because otherwise you're working the clutch a lot.
For most highway driving, what you want is adaptive cruise and mild autosteer (i.e., lane following). With those, even fairly severe inattention is unlikely to lead to a crash (unless there's some other idiot involved as well). It's pretty awesome to be in heavy highway traffic with adaptive cruise: without it, heavy traffic is quite stressful, but with it you're far more relaxed. (I've only ever had autosteer in hire cars; it was just a bit too expensive when I got the current car.)
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@Atazhaia said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
And now for something on driving patterns: Automatic-only licenses are gaining in popularity here, with 20% of new licenses around here and 50% in Stockholm being automatic only. Cited student: "It's easier to focus on the driving [with automatic]." But, is it really? Easier to learn, yes. But in the long run, does automatic only make you a better and more aware driver from removing one aspect to think of, or does it make you less aware of the car as you end up in a constant "convenience mode" of not having to poke at car controls as much? Or does it not matter at all?
Manual transmission handling becomes muscle memory very quickly, so in normal driving it isn't really improving your awareness of anything, but it can still get in the way in the inconvenient moment when you need to get out of the way but have too high gear set (because one does not normally shift down as they are slowing down, just step on the clutch) and then it becomes extra task delaying your response. So I am pretty sure that yes, for average driver automatic (or semi-automatic) gearbox is a net improvement in their ability to react.
Having manual control of the transmission is mainly useful on slippery or rough surface. Which for average driver is basically never.
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Having manual control of the transmission is mainly useful on slippery or rough surface. Which for average driver is basically never.
Automatics usually have a mode that lets you force a lower gear than it would normally pick. I imagine that's useful for those sorts of situations.
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@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Atazhaia Is the automatic-only license much cheaper than the normal one?
Because if not, then I get the
reaction of "Don't young people have any pride anymore?".And also, are the young not worried that they might need the ability to drive a manual? For work reasons, etc.? Because making the driving school slightly easier for yourself in exchange of a lifelong potential handicap does not seem like a good deal to me.
Costs are the same. The only difference is you don't have to acquire muscle memory for shifting. Which is pretty much going to happen as a side effect of learning how to interact with traffic anyway.
it's one minor thing you won't have to learn to get the license, but it's a very minor thing. For people with horrible body control or muscle memory, it might be worth it. For everyone else, is say it's a moot point.As far as Stockholm seeing the most of it, everyone there gets an automatic because they think it's less annoying to drive in congested traffic, so I believe that is the reason for the change in licenses there, not EVs. And automatics today are generally really good, compared to the shitty ones from a couple of decades ago. A modern automatic will shift faster than a person with a manual gearbox, unless abused, will last longer than the car as well. DCTs and CVTs are still kind of shit though.
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@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Having manual control of the transmission is mainly useful on slippery or rough surface. Which for average driver is basically never.
Unless they live in Alaska, Finland, Sweden, Norway or Siberia. Then rough and slippery are the norm. We don't use studded tires half the year for the sound effects.
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@dkf said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Bulb said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
Having manual control of the transmission is mainly useful on slippery or rough surface. Which for average driver is basically never.
Automatics usually have a mode that lets you force a lower gear than it would normally pick. I imagine that's useful for those sorts of situations.
A lot (most?) of them do now. It isn't as good as a manual transmission but it certainly helps if you know what you are doing.
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@remi said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
because we're dealing with lives here there is no way to ever make rigorous experiments.
Sure there is a way. It might not be legal, ethical, moral or desirable, but it is possible.
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@Rhywden said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
regularly shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd and then down again multiple times in the span if minutes.
You actually get into 3rd gear? When I used to drive a manual in heavy traffic, it was quite the pain in the left leg, constantly feathering the clutch to not stall out in 1st. By sheer coincidence, I'm sure, it was a worn-out clutch that finally caused me to trade that car in on a new one.
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@boomzilla said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@acrow said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
And also, are the young not worried that they might need the ability to drive a manual?
Eh...I haven't driven one in a couple of decades.
I prefer them (except in rush hour traffic!). But same. Manuals are just not offered in the cars I want anymore.
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@HardwareGeek said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
@Rhywden said in Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition:
regularly shifting from 1st to 2nd to 3rd and then down again multiple times in the span if minutes.
You actually get into 3rd gear? When I used to drive a manual in heavy traffic, it was quite the pain in the left leg, constantly feathering the clutch to not stall out in 1st. By sheer coincidence, I'm sure, it was a worn-out clutch that finally caused me to trade that car in on a new one.
Stop-and-go - that regularly meant going from 0 to ~40/50 km/h and then back again.
Traffic wave - Wikipedia
