WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else
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@cvi So the configuration software did it. From the headline, I thought it was an issue with the mouse driver.
Why would mice install drivers over Windows' default? Because by default windows filters mouse movements with a heavy hand, to make the cheapest office mice seem less crap. But it makes gaming feel like driving with a steering column made out of rubber. For a crisp mousing experience, a lot of hacking away useless crust is needed. And some mice try and do that in their driver package. </rant>
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@cvi said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla From TFA:
When plugging in a Razer device into Windows 10 or Windows 11, the operating system will automatically download and begin installing the Razer Synapse software on the computer.
Eh. Not surprised. That software was crap last I had to deal with it, and it doesn't seem better now. Of course, that it's installed automatically these days ... well, fuck whoever made that a reality.
@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla OTOH, if the attacker has physical access to plug in the mouse or keyboard, the airtight hatch isn't airtight.
True, but this reduced the time-to-own quite significantly. At least it's super obvious when somebody does this, since Razer devices have the visual alarm lighting built-in.
Finally, a hack suitable for film.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla OTOH, if the attacker has physical access to plug in the mouse or keyboard, the airtight hatch isn't airtight.
Except it's apparently very easy to simulate this with a virtual USB device, making it remotely exploitable too....
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But you need admin rights to install a virtual USB device in the first place, so...
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@Zerosquare I want to yell WebUSB, despite knowing that it doesn't work that way. (Well, yet, anyway.)
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@cvi said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
WebUSB
The Nope thread and the bad idea thread are
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BSOD!
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
BSOD!
:(
But at least the files are still where you left them
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@hungrier Did the BSOD happen before or after Windows Update deleted your files?
Yes
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@Gribnit said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Windows 11 has never crashed.
Only software that runs can crash, if that's what you're getting at.
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@Zecc said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gribnit said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Windows 11 has never crashed.
Only software that runs can crash, if that's what you're getting at.
Yes. Yes it was. This of course may no longer be the case.
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Trying to install Windows 10 using a qemu VM on an M1 Mac. Let's see how that goes...
Also, I never noticed but why does the Win 10 installer look like Win 7?
Do their installers in general always have to look one generation behind?
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Do their installers in general always have to look one generation behind?
Could honestly be intentional, either for an assumed upgrade use case, or for some weird NLP hack trying to convince people it's Windows all the way down.
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@topspin It's using the same WinPE image from Windows Vista and Windows 7, just tweaked to include the latest version of the kernel and shell and so on -- but still using Aero Basic, since video drivers don't work properly in that environment.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Let's see how that goes...
Well, it doesn't.
Something crashed and now it doesn't want to boot. Well, either that or it's slow as molasses.
Might try to start over again from scratch tomorrow or give up on the idea entirely.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Trying to install Windows 10 using a qemu VM on an M1 Mac.
Why do you want to ruin your Mac?
(not a Mac user, but it has be be better than Windows 10)
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Why do you want to ruin your Mac?
Mr. Ballmer, would you sign my mac? – 01:00
— Gaines Kergosien
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Trying to install Windows 10 using a qemu VM on an M1 Mac.
Why do you want to ruin your Mac?
(not a Mac user, but it has be be better than Windows 10)
I mean, it's just a disposable toy VM. It's not like it's replacing the OS.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Trying to install Windows 10 using a qemu VM on an M1 Mac.
Why do you want to ruin your Mac?
(not a Mac user, but it has be be better than Windows 10)
I mean, it's just a disposable toy VM. It's not like it's replacing the OS.
Digital Cooties.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Trying to install Windows 10 using a qemu VM on an M1 Mac. Let's see how that goes...
Also, I never noticed but why does the Win 10 installer look like Win 7?
Do their installers in general always have to look one generation behind?
The Preinstallation Environment does typically lag behind.
Besides, it's not running the full 3D-accelerated theme engine. You're lucky it doesn't look like Windows 2000!
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Trying to install Windows 10 using a qemu VM on an M1 Mac.
Why do you want to ruin your Mac?
(not a Mac user, but it has be be better than Windows 10)
I mean, it's just a disposable toy VM. It's not like it's replacing the OS.
Digital Cooties.
Only if you let it mount host volumes or it gets at the real BIOS.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
You're lucky it doesn't look like Windows 2000!
Why? What's so wrong with that? It'd be a bit unsettling at worst, as long as it worked.
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@Gribnit said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
You're lucky it doesn't look like Windows 2000!
Why? What's so wrong with that? It'd be a bit unsettling at worst, as long as it worked.
Because it would make you think you're actually using Windows 10, of course!
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Well, either that or it's slow as molasses.
ď…ş: Oh shit, I'm on Apple hardware.
-or-
ď…ą: Windows is running in that VM - set the hypervisor priority to LOW!
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@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Well, either that or it's slow as molasses.
ď…ş: Oh shit, I'm on Apple hardware.
-or-
ď…ą: Windows is running in that VM - set the hypervisor priority to LOW!
Just run a Linux box in between to confuse them both, problem solved.
No. I said solved.
ed. i didn't even...
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"Hey, there's an update available! Let's install it and prevent the user from using their computer for a few hours."
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
-or-
"Hey, there's an update available! Let's install it and prevent the user from using their computer for a few hours."Most security incidents are caused by human error.
Ergo.
Each moment the user is prevented from using their computer improves their security posture.
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Can someone do me a favour and see if it's just the two computers I tried this on, or if File Explorer as a bug trying to open Powershell in a directory (via option in blue File button) with an apostrophe in its path?
Edit: don't know why I posted this here. One of those two computers is running Windows Server. Ah well
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@Zecc said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
File Explorer has a bug
Looks like this one. Odd number of apostrophes:
Even number of apostrophes:
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@Zecc It does on Server 2016 at least.
It probably runs something similar to this, and the
'
screws it up.powershell.exe -NoExit -Command Set-Location -LiteralPath 'FOLDERNAMEHERE'
edit: Yup, based on the screenshot
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MS has really become UNIX-friendly. They even implemented the same kind of character escapes bugs
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I can't wait to find what new wormable exploits are found because of this...
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@Zecc I can repro on Windows 10 as well (at least on the Enterprise version, version 20H2, version 10942.1165) so I guess it can belong here.
I can find a post on Microsoft's forums from four years ago about a similar problem, with replies pretty much as useful as you might expect (that is to say, not at all)
I can't check Feedback Hub on the system I'm currently on (as apparently in order to search the Feedback Hub database you need to have Basic Telemetry on, and the corporate overlords have disabled it). But it wouldn't shock me if the problem was buried somewhere in the Windows bug database, just never getting prioritized over whatever it is they are working on. (And even if it was fixed, unless there's a security exploit of some sort it's unlikely to be backported.)
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@pcooper said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
even if it was fixed
This really feels like it should be just a few double-quotes added on a registry entry, but that probably breaks folders with quotes in the name....
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@pcooper said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
even if it was fixed
This really feels like it should be just a few double-quotes added on a registry entry, but that probably breaks folders with quotes in the name....
Problem is that even Microsoft doesn't understand how to quote command line arguments on Windows.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@pcooper said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
even if it was fixed
This really feels like it should be just a few double-quotes added on a registry entry, but that probably breaks folders with quotes in the name....
Problem is that even Microsoft doesn't understand how to quote command line arguments on Windows.
What they need is a new registry value type, REG_SX which is a regular expression string to transform the input.......
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@pcooper said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
even if it was fixed
This really feels like it should be just a few double-quotes added on a registry entry, but that probably breaks folders with quotes in the name....
Problem is that even Microsoft doesn't understand how to quote command line arguments on Windows.
The problem is just quoting is not enough. You need to define a suitable escaping method.
Linux does not have this problem since it passes the arguments as an array of strings instead of a single string. It has other problems instead.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@pcooper said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
even if it was fixed
This really feels like it should be just a few double-quotes added on a registry entry, but that probably breaks folders with quotes in the name....
Problem is that even Microsoft doesn't understand how to quote command line arguments on Windows.
I don't think I've ever seen double quotes fail in powershell or cmd. Is it even a legal character for file/folder names?
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No, you can't include quotes in file/folder names in Windows, but of course sometimes paths end with a backslash, and depending how on the sending and receiving code interpret it you run the risk of the
\"
at the end being interpreted as an escaped quote instead of an actual backslash-and-end-of-argument.I have this article bookmarked for when I need it, from one of the useful Microsoft blog posts of yore, though if I were smart I'd probably save a whole copy of it for the case where Microsoft moves things around again and loses it:
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@pcooper said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
even if it was fixed
This really feels like it should be just a few double-quotes added on a registry entry, but that probably breaks folders with quotes in the name....
That's broken too if you use
"
when launching Powershell. Admittedly it's a different error, but it's still broken.
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@pcooper Yup, passing stuff through shell. That makes things difficult in linux as well.
Even worse when you need to protect against two levels of shell parsing.
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In other news today, physical access now potentially lets malignators to permanently (?) rootkit devices.
I like how they call it a "new bug". It's apparently not new, just newly discovered....
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@Tsaukpaetra um, no mention of how these actually get installed. Besides a flawed certificate check, does this still require user installation?
Doesn't sound "easy".
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
how these actually get installed.
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
physical access
IIRC it's rather trivial to put shit in the EFI flash if you can run a program to do so.
Something like this:
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
physical access
Missed that, sorry.
Yeah, not really a big deal.
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@topspin Well, an actor at a factory in China can trivially permanently rootkit batches of laptops. As can happen with any and all non-removable programmable storage space on a computer. So for anyone who needs to take their information security seriously, every modern computer must be assumed to be compromised, with no way to fix it.
To get a -secure environment going, you now have to find a pre-2000 microcontroller with an easy to hand-switch-bang programming interface.
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@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@pcooper Yup, passing stuff through shell. That makes things difficult in linux as well.
Even worse when you need to protect against two levels of shell parsing.
That's when you say “fuck it” and use a proper scripting language that doesn't fuck up the boundaries between words.
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@pcooper Yup, passing stuff through shell. That makes things difficult in linux as well.
Even worse when you need to protect against two levels of shell parsing.
That's when you say “fuck it” and use a proper scripting language that doesn't fuck up the boundaries between words.
Preferably, yes. And have C programs use the
exec()
family instead ofsystem()
. But the past decision to use SSH as an RPC interface keeps haunting me here.
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@PleegWat At that point I would take a serious look at the SSH File Transfer Protocol and try to pass parameters through there...