The future of the Trolleybus Garage
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
No more downvotes
It must just be me, but I'm completely lost on why anyone would care this much about a button on a website that crements a counter. I never vote and never look at the number of votes on a post. Same thing with Facebook or Twitter likes. Okay I admit I have a highly upvoted question and answer on StackOverflow I'm quite proud of. Because I seem to have created something useful for others. Not because they pushed the button.
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@topspin said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@Polygeekery said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
I would even be okay with the reason why being ...
I see what you did there.
Could you point it out to me? Assuming that what I did was within the quoted text? If it was what follows, I also see it.
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@mikehurley said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
I'm a bit concerned with how much @apapadimoulis 's definition of the Garage involves trolling. Or we're using different definitions. If somebody calls somebody or an idea stupid, I generally don't think they're trolling. They are likely using hyperbole, which isn't necessarily trolling. Trolling, being an asshole, being passionate, being angry, thinking somebody is wrong, etc., are not synonyms.
I wouldn't read into it too much. I used troll because Trolley, which honestly took me a while to get. I didn't see the pun. But in our case, trolling means "how mechanics act when they're trolling in the Garage". I should probably add that "clarification" to the guidelines.
The category could just as well be called The Shithole, and members assholes. Or whatever.
I used to have a very narrow definition of trolling (perhaps, rooted in the BBS/Usenet days) that involved intentionally eliciting emotional conversation on sensitive topics while pretending to be acting in good faith, generally quasi anonymously. Perhaps that's not far from what it means to you, but that's quite far from popularized usage.
So I guess agree with what you said, as well as @GOG and @Karla said?
This is where the training comes in. You have to see it to understand it. I think I understand it now, and yet I can't adequately explain it. No one was able to (when I asked), and yet everyone's description was accurate, once you understood what it meant.
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@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@Mason_Wheeler said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
The big obvious one is that we've lost access to a responsive mod team.
The whole Alex as the sole dictactor shebang is only temporary, and I'm sure the others could probably act without Alex's approval if something genuinely urgent cropped up.
Yes, but it's less work and the community is more fun than I imagined, so I'm in no rush. I don't think there's been any real problems, and the moderation queue is mostly spam reports, "spam" reports, and offensive content reports that I plan to address with clarified policy later. There's only a few cases in several months.
It's probably a good thing that I'm slow to respond, because many flags have been in megatopics, and they just defuse on their own. Instead of deleting/editing/penalizing, I'd like to say, "please be more considerate" while offering clear guidelines. Self moderation.
There's a backlog of things to do, mostly documenting and clarifying, and I'll just roll them out like this.
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@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
My interpretation was that someone would request access and be manually approved by a dictactor/admin/moderator like the Lounge. How the group is setup (complete with Join Group button) with seems to confirm that.
Yes, that's what I meant by invite-only.
The Lounge, Garage, and Salon are more sensitive and not intuitive (compared to most forums, or other categories on the site), so the training and vetting is important.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@loopback0 No more downvotes, and making it invite-only rather than opt-in, don't feel like fundamental changes to you?
The downvote is a test, to see if behavior changes from "I anonymous disagree" (which discourages participation) to "that was a good contribution to the experience". The Garage is at its best when there are disagreements, and I encourage mechanics to upvote (which encourages participation), especially when it's a viewpoint they will go on to vehemently disagree with and shitpost. Otherwise there will be much less posts to vehemently disagree with.
Invite only is also a change, I guess? but there's been effectively no new members in a long time, so it's not like that will have any real impact. Plus it was "secret" (as in, even registered members wouldn't know it existed until they heard about it from other members, and then learned about the group). I don't think it should be "secret", just "locked" until you level up. It's a neat place.
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@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
I used to have a very narrow definition of trolling (perhaps, rooted in the BBS/Usenet days) that involved intentionally eliciting emotional conversation on sensitive topics while pretending to be acting in good faith, generally quasi anonymously. Perhaps that's not far from what it means to you, but that's quite far from popularized usage.
No, no, that's pretty much it. The problem in regard to the Garage is that the category evolved from a shithole to a haven of free speech. @Benjamin-Hall called it "the thin veneer of civility", but I think a more accurate description of what the Garage discussions allow shedding is "political correctness". And that's what makes the place so popular; being politically correct, as in not touching what the current rulers have deemed taboo, is very stifling. Especially so for engineers, since we deal with actual absolutes every day, and can easily spot errors in systems.
The category could just as well be called The Shithole, and members assholes. Or whatever.
Or Hell. Because it melts away... what's usually called "snowflakes" in the Garage.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@Mason_Wheeler said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@loopback0 No more downvotes, and making it invite-only rather than opt-in, don't feel like fundamental changes to you?
Is it invite only? My understanding was that people will request Garage access and then be given the test, not that non-Mechanics would deem people worthy and tap them on the shoulder like it's the Illuminati or something.
That would be the lounge. A place I'm somewhat interested in joining* but was turned off of it when blakey complained about Ben leaking information from it. There's a link here that I just can't grasp.
*if ye are foolish enough to want my spam there.
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@DogsB You can request access to the Lounge too. No special shoulder tap required, just admin approval.
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@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@DogsB You can request access to the Lounge too. No special shoulder tap required, just admin approval.
I'm a little disappointed now.
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@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
That would be the lounge. A place I'm somewhat interested in joining* but was turned off of it when blakey complained about Ben leaking information from it. There's a link here that I just can't grasp.
The Lounge has the same rules as General, except that it's not indexable by Google. People are less careful about anonymity in the Lounge (and thus post about their jobs more freely) because it's harder for their employers to find them.
Unless someone who's in The Lounge leaks it, which is why we have strict rules about not letting The Lounge leak
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
That would be the lounge. A place I'm somewhat interested in joining* but was turned off of it when blakey complained about Ben leaking information from it. There's a link here that I just can't grasp.
The Lounge has the same rules as General, except that it's not indexable by Google. People are less careful about anonymity in the Lounge (and thus post about their jobs more freely) because it's harder for their employers to find them.
Unless someone who's in The Lounge leaks it, which is why we have strict rules about not letting The Lounge leak
Which group is it?
*edit guess who has won Thursday?
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@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
Which group is it?
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@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@DogsB You can request access to the Lounge too. No special shoulder tap required, just admin approval.
I'm a little disappointed now.
Weeeellll, as the sole administrator/moderator/dictator... there may be a policy change that requires a special shoulder tap... but for now, I've carefully reviewed your application, and have accepted it so long as you abide by the unpublished guidelines.
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
The Lounge has the same rules as General, except that it's not indexable by Google. People are less careful about anonymity in the Lounge (and thus post about their jobs more freely) because it's harder for their employers to find them.
Unless someone who's in The Lounge leaks it, which is why we have strict rules about not letting The Lounge leak
I really like the Lounge. I'll definitely clarify The Lounge in a future post as well, but if the site as a whole is pseudo-anonymous, then the The Lounge is pseudo-nonanonymous, I guess?
It's mostly candid discussion about the workplace (bitching, asking for advice), but also other personal matters that aren't all that private per say, but that participants don't won't public. I started a diet topic, there's a "share your garden pics" thread, etc.
Would I be devastated if a member were to "leak" my weight-loss progression or may daily ramblings on dieting? No... but I don't want it part of my public internet profile, I guess?
There's an (unpublished) policy statement on doxxing written up (on my backlog), but "leaking" from the lounge would be handled like doxxing.
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@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
there's a "share your garden pics" thread
I'm 90% sure this is in The Lounge because, given a picture of your garden, a sufficiently motivated person could find out where you live.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
there's a "share your garden pics" thread
I'm 90% sure this is in The Lounge because, given a picture of your garden, a sufficiently motivated person could find out where you live.
Also because, like a lot of personal stuff posted, someone who knew you but didn't otherwise know you were a member on here could link it back to you.
Most/all of the stuff that I post in the Lounge doesn't have enough detail on its own to identify me unless someone els who already knew it saw it to create the link.
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@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
there's a "share your garden pics" thread
I'm 90% sure this is in The Lounge because, given a picture of your garden, a sufficiently motivated person could find out where you live.
Also because, like a lot of personal stuff posted, someone who knew you but didn't otherwise know you were a member on here could link it back to you.
Yep - which is why "leaking" is considered doxxing.
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@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@DogsB You can request access to the Lounge too. No special shoulder tap required, just admin approval.
I'm a little disappointed now.
When we are all special, no one is.
****It's a little early here, but hell it's 2020.
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@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
there's a "share your garden pics" thread
It began as more of a selfie thread. Then at one point I posted pictures of my lawn. Since that was when we were still using Dicksource, someone modified the title to include gardens. It's pretty much, share your pictures (which might be self-doxy).
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@acrow said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
I used to have a very narrow definition of trolling (perhaps, rooted in the BBS/Usenet days) that involved intentionally eliciting emotional conversation on sensitive topics while pretending to be acting in good faith, generally quasi anonymously. Perhaps that's not far from what it means to you, but that's quite far from popularized usage.
No, no, that's pretty much it. The problem in regard to the Garage is that the category evolved from a shithole to a haven of free speech. @Benjamin-Hall called it "the thin veneer of civility", but I think a more accurate description of what the Garage discussions allow shedding is "political correctness". And that's what makes the place so popular; being politically correct, as in not touching what the current rulers have deemed taboo, is very stifling. Especially so for engineers, since we deal with actual absolutes every day, and can easily spot errors in systems.
The category could just as well be called The Shithole, and members assholes. Or whatever.
Or Hell. Because it melts away... what's usually called "snowflakes" in the Garage.
Muspelheim?
Helheim?
To make the nazicallers lose their shit completely?
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@Carnage said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
Helheim
Helheim
A level 10-45 contested zone. In the Zones category. Added in World of Warcraft: Legion. Always up to date with the latest patch (10.2.7).
A rather depressing place.
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@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@topspin said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
Is that configurable per user. I would probably downvote more often if it wasn't anonymous.
Because it wouldn't be funny to downvote over Oxford commas if the vote is anonymous?
Or people posting dog pics in the cat topic.
I have no idea what you're talking about
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@Karla said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
You can take my Oxford comma out of my cold, dead, hands.
That ain't an Oxford comma.
Well, the first comma is an Oxford comma, but that second one is just ... wrong.
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@abarker said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@Karla said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
You can take my Oxford comma out of my cold, dead, hands.
That ain't an Oxford comma.
Well, the first comma is an Oxford comma, but that second one is, just, wrong.
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@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
That would be the lounge. A place I'm somewhat interested in joining* but was turned off of it when blakey complained about Ben leaking information from it. There's a link here that I just can't grasp.
The Lounge has the same rules as General, except that it's not indexable by Google. People are less careful about anonymity in the Lounge (and thus post about their jobs more freely) because it's harder for their employers to find them.
Unless someone who's in The Lounge leaks it, which is why we have strict rules about not letting The Lounge leak
Which group is it?
*edit guess who has won Thursday?
I forgot about that group! There's something odd about it, though ...
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Here is another idea (yes, I know, threads are free...) about the garage:
What about rate-limiting posting?
'cause it's really tiresome when a thread is just spammed by a few people firing back one-liners, across several disjointed sub-threads, with about a message a minute.
I'm looking at you, users (and all of you, not just the one everyone is piling on but also those who are doing the piling on) who are doing that right now across several threads.
[rant off]
No, seriously. I don't think I've ever seen an interesting Garage thread where people were posting burst of short posts. Either you are shit-posting and if you do more than a few at a time, it's boring to read and childish, or you are (semi-)seriously expressing an idea and then you'd better express that idea rather than
it across many posts, it's, uh, boring to read and childish.I'm pretty sure looking at the DB you could find out the distribution of posts/day/thread in the garage (across the last couple of weeks, say), and find a threshold that would have no effect on 99% of posters but would immediately kill a couple of boring U-no-U-no-U slap fests.
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@abarker said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@Karla said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
You can take my Oxford comma out of my cold, dead, hands.
That ain't an Oxford comma.
Well, the first comma is an Oxford comma, but that second one is just ... wrong.
I'd say
but it wasn't really a joke but it was intentional. @DogsB wants to take a comma away, I wanted an extra one as a spare.
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@remi said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
Here is another idea (yes, I know, threads are free...) about the garage:
What about rate-limiting posting?
'cause it's really tiresome when a thread is just spammed by a few people firing back one-liners, across several disjointed sub-threads, with about a message a minute.
I'm looking at you, users (and all of you, not just the one everyone is piling on but also those who are doing the piling on) who are doing that right now across several threads.
[rant off]
No, seriously. I don't think I've ever seen an interesting Garage thread where people were posting burst of short posts. Either you are shit-posting and if you do more than a few at a time, it's boring to read and childish, or you are (semi-)seriously expressing an idea and then you'd better express that idea rather than
it across many posts, it's, uh, boring to read and childish.I'm pretty sure looking at the DB you could find out the distribution of posts/day/thread in the garage (across the last couple of weeks, say), and find a threshold that would have no effect on 99% of posters but would immediately kill a couple of boring U-no-U-no-U slap fests.
This behavior has never bothered me.
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As someone who isn't in the Garage at the moment I have one main question, the answer to which will drive more feedback on these guidelines.
Is it supposed to be an open, non politically correct but still respectful place to discuss controversial topics?
Or is it supposed to be a firepit where people can play at being (or actually be) shouty and aggressive to other members?These guidelines look more about encouraging the second, which would mean this is not a site where the first can happen. If you want a place for the former (and some of the replies here suggest that some people definitely do) then it probably needs some level of moderation. Or the Salon should be made that place.
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@mikehurley Downvotes have never bothered me either and yet they're being removed. We're not going for changes that everyone agrees on anyway.
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@mikehurley said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
This behavior has never bothered me.
As long as it stays in the thread it originated in. When it spews out across unrelated threads it can get a bit tedious.
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@remi said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@mikehurley Downvotes have never bothered me either and yet they're being removed. We're not going for changes that everyone agrees on anyway.
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@Mason_Wheeler New rule:
All Garage posts must be only in the form of Frozen memes.
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@loopback0 Evil ideas thread is
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@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
in our case, trolling means "how mechanics act when they're trolling in the Garage".
Got it. Trolling means trolling.
Trolling: (n) the act of trolling
Filed under: See also: trolling
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@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@mikehurley said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
This behavior has never bothered me.
As long as it stays in the thread it originated in. When it spews out across unrelated threads it can get a bit tedious.
Sometimes. Other times I find it informative if a pattern of behavior is being called out.
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@bobjanova said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
Is it supposed to be an open, non politically correct but still respectful place to discuss controversial topics?
Or is it supposed to be a firepit where people can play at being (or actually be) shouty and aggressive to other members?
These guidelines look more about encouraging the second, which would mean this is not a site where the first can happen. If you want a place for the former (and some of the replies here suggest that some people definitely do) then it probably needs some level of moderation. Or the Salon should be made that place.The Salon will return soon, as that place! I only realized yesterday it was actually closed 😅 I just thought no one was using it...
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@bobjanova said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
As someone who isn't in the Garage at the moment I have one main question, the answer to which will drive more feedback on these guidelines.
Is it supposed to be an open, non politically correct but still respectful place to discuss controversial topics?
Or is it supposed to be a firepit where people can play at being (or actually be) shouty and aggressive to other members?These guidelines look more about encouraging the second, which would mean this is not a site where the first can happen. If you want a place for the former (and some of the replies here suggest that some people definitely do) then it probably needs some level of moderation. Or the Salon should be made that place.
Frequently threads or subthreads start as the first and morph into the second. When that happens, it seems like usually the originator or one of the early responders doubles down on something and it escalates from there. Other threads are immediately the second type. Sometimes they stay the first type. It's all over the place.
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@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@Mason_Wheeler New rule:
All Garage posts must be only in the form of Frozen memes.
Taking the obvious one:
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@error said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
in our case, trolling means "how mechanics act when they're trolling in the Garage".
Got it. Trolling means trolling.
Trolling: (n) the act of trolling
Filed under: See also: trolling
To understand trolling one must first understand trolling.
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@Karla said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@error said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
in our case, trolling means "how mechanics act when they're trolling in the Garage".
Got it. Trolling means trolling.
Trolling: (n) the act of trolling
Filed under: See also: trolling
To understand trolling one must first understand trolling.
Trolling is a art.
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@loopback0 said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@DogsB said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
Which group is it?
I know this is a holdover from
, where this role was just a 
awarded by the internetpointzzz, but the name does make it seem more exclusive and elitist (not that I care).
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@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@mikehurley said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
I'm a bit concerned with how much @apapadimoulis 's definition of the Garage involves trolling. Or we're using different definitions. If somebody calls somebody or an idea stupid, I generally don't think they're trolling. They are likely using hyperbole, which isn't necessarily trolling. Trolling, being an asshole, being passionate, being angry, thinking somebody is wrong, etc., are not synonyms.
I wouldn't read into it too much. I used troll because Trolley, which honestly took me a while to get. I didn't see the pun. But in our case, trolling means "how mechanics act when they're trolling in the Garage". I should probably add that "clarification" to the guidelines.
The category could just as well be called The Shithole, and members assholes. Or whatever.
I used to have a very narrow definition of trolling (perhaps, rooted in the BBS/Usenet days) that involved intentionally eliciting emotional conversation on sensitive topics while pretending to be acting in good faith, generally quasi anonymously. Perhaps that's not far from what it means to you, but that's quite far from popularized usage.
So I guess agree with what you said, as well as @GOG and @Karla said?
This is where the training comes in. You have to see it to understand it. I think I understand it now, and yet I can't adequately explain it. No one was able to (when I asked), and yet everyone's description was accurate, once you understood what it meant.
Your narrow definition is more or less the one I have. Maybe I'm out of date to consider that the default. However it'd be nice to get an explicit definition of what trolling means included in any policy changes. Also it would make clear what people can expect, especially if there are these different definitions floating around.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
there's a "share your garden pics" thread
I'm 90% sure this is in The Lounge because, given a picture of your garden, a sufficiently motivated person could find out where you live.
Also, it got coopted into "screenshot yourself" somehow, so it was used to share selfies of some members.
Edit:
... Reading threads in order is for lame-ohs. I'm reading this one like Billy Pilgrim.
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@Karla said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@error said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@apapadimoulis said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
in our case, trolling means "how mechanics act when they're trolling in the Garage".
Got it. Trolling means trolling.
Trolling: (n) the act of trolling
Filed under: See also: trolling
To understand trolling one must first understand trolling.
They see me trollin', they hatin'...
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@loopback0
Tell me what you're gonna do now
Keep trollin' trollin' trollin' trollin'...
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@loopback0
Tell me what you're gonna do now
Keep trollin' trollin' trollin' trollin'...
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@bobjanova said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
As someone who isn't in the Garage at the moment I have one main question, the answer to which will drive more feedback on these guidelines.
Is it supposed to be an open, non politically correct but still respectful place to discuss controversial topics?
Or is it supposed to be a firepit where people can play at being (or actually be) shouty and aggressive to other members?There's a bit of room-reading that goes on, but individual conversations within megathreads can/have been either.
There's a limit to the amount of offensive hyperbole that's enforced outside, but not inside, the Garage.
For example, I was recently in a non-Garage conversation where a Dutch forum member was arguing that the Dutch way of doing something was better than the American way, and I was arguing the opposite. (The specifics of the argument are not important here.)
In the Garage, it would be appropriate for me to mix into a serious answer
If I cared what Dutch people thought, I'd look up what country they come from and make the appropriate ethnic stereotypes.
But I refrained because we weren't in the Garage.
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@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
If I cared what Dutch people thought, I'd look up what country they come from and make the appropriate ethnic stereotypes.
They come from... err... um... They come from...
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@error said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
@GuyWhoKilledBear said in The future of the Trolleybus Garage:
If I cared what Dutch people thought, I'd look up what country they come from and make the appropriate ethnic stereotypes.
They come from... err... um... They come from...
Dutchland!
