Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!
-
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I live in a nation of morons and, unfortunately, I donāt think moving to another one would change that.
I've heard from Germans that Bavaria is like its own country, and seemed pretty nice when I visited a few years ago. Maybe you could go there. You already know the language
-
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I was watching a Big Clive video the other night where he talked about an older version of smoke machine that used to be used in nightclubs and there were studies done that seemed to indicate lower levels of airborne pathogen transmission when they were running. The thought being that the mineral oil fog would work like a general airborne filter and drag aerosolized particles to the floor more quickly.
It is worth a watch. BigClive is an amusing fellow. I would totally have a few too many beers with him, his stories are incredibly interesting to me.
It's the perfect blend of nerdy technical shit and nerdy construction shit. But from an electrical engineering standpoint, and just obscure random facts standpoint, I think everyone on the forums could like his videos. Seriously, even if you don't think you might like a video based on the title go ahead and click through. He's awesome.
-
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Seriously, even if you don't think you might like a video based on the title go ahead and click through. He's awesome.
I liked the flaming hot video. This one looks good too.
-
@jinpa said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Teen in remote Amazonian tribe tests positive for coronavirus
A 15-year-oldĀ maleĀ from a remoteĀ indigenousĀ tribe in the Amazon rainforest has tested positive for theĀ coronavirus, Brazilian health officials say.
-
Billionaires, young women on private jet caught defying coronavirus lockdown
A group of billionaires and young women tried to getaway during lockdown.
-
@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It does leave out that detail. My guess is that they're becoming less isolated, and that they sought out someone from the outside world when the boy got sick. My anthropology prof mentioned the Yanomami back in the '80's, so they've been known for some time.
If you're interested in fairly isolated tribes, my favorite is the PirahĆ£.
First coronavirus deaths reported in indigenous communities in the Amazon
āCOVID-19 has fertile terrain to spread rapidly among the populations that live in Amazonia,ā says president of prominent Brazilian rights group.
The youth had moved back and forth through an area rife with wildcat gold miners, and itās unknown where or from whom he contracted the sickness. ... Yanomami leaders have been pleading with officials for weeks to expel the miners.
Sounds like they do have some limited contact with outsiders.
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I liked the flaming hot video. This one looks good too.
I assumed this BigClive video would be more your speed.
-
@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Billionaires, young women on private jet caught defying coronavirus lockdown
A group of billionaires and young women tried to getaway during lockdown.
So, Epstein is alive and well?
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@mott555 said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@blek It doesn't make sense to me. "It's not safe to have more than 10 people in the store! So let's have everyone stand right next to each other for three hours just outside the door! It's safer that way!"
The stores I've been to that are limiting entry (Home Depot and my regular grocery store) have stuff marked out on the sidewalks and tell people to keep their distance while in line. Granted, I only waited a few minutes to get into Home Depot and the grocery store wasn't crowded enough that I had to wait to get in.
I did my regular weekly grocery shopping today. As others have noted, there are marks every 6 feet (~2 m) at both the entrance and check-outs. It was busier than last time, but it was also Saturday afternoon vs. early Monday morning, so that would be completely normal. There was no queue at the entrance, and I just walked straight in. On my way out, I think I heard someone trying to enter being told to wait, but I wasn't paying much attention; there still wasn't a queue. They did have employees who appeared to be counting the number in and out.
Inside it was not what I would normally consider crowded, but there were enough people it wasn't always possible to avoid passing close to someone briefly while moving through the aisles. Stock on hand for some items was better than I have seen recently. In particular, paper towels and toilet paper other than the crappy (figuratively, not (yet) literally) store brand were available. I got what I think may have been the last package of my preferred brand of paper towels. They didn't have my preferred brand of toilet paper, but they did have at least two brands other than the store brand. Orange juice selection was limited, but at least it was available. They were out of gallon bottles of 1% milk, so I had to get 2%. There was no sharp or extra-sharp cheddar, except expensive premium brand. Eggs were just about gone, but I have enough, so I didn't look closely at what was left.
-
@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
They were out of gallon bottles of 1% milk
Good. That milk-flavored water is a crime against humanity.
so I had to get 2%.
You monster. I hope the Hindus are right and there is a cow God to punish you for supporting this sacrilege.
-
@jinpa it does say āremoteā, not āisolatedā
-
@hungrier said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I live in a nation of morons and, unfortunately, I donāt think moving to another one would change that.
I've heard from Germans that Bavaria is like its own country, and seemed pretty nice
Wrong. (Itās like the Texas of Germany)
You already know the language
Wrong!
-
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@hungrier said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@topspin said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I live in a nation of morons and, unfortunately, I donāt think moving to another one would change that.
I've heard from Germans that Bavaria is like its own country, and seemed pretty nice
Wrong. (Itās like the Texas of Germany)
You already know the language
Wrong!
Wat snackt de Dƶsbaddel do? So'n tƶffelig TĆ¼Ć¼g.
-
@Rhywden said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Wat snackt de Dƶsbaddel do? So'n tƶffelig TĆ¼Ć¼g.
Gesundheit!
-
-
@dfdub said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@HardwareGeek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
They were out of gallon bottles of 1% milk
Good. That milk-flavored water is a crime against humanity.
so I had to get 2%.
You monster. I hope the Hindus are right and there is a cow God to punish you for supporting this sacrilege.
Yeah, he's not in CA where they do something (I think I heard is was adding milk solids) that makes the milk seem less diluted than I remembered it being in IL. So 2% (and even 1% - almost) is actually quite palatable.
-
@blek said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Nurgle's blessing
I approve of this phrasing.
-
Florida update: how long do we have to wait to call it a peak (or at least an inflection point)?
-
-
Seems like he was practicing correct social distancing to me.
-
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Taking your BMW out for a spin on a 170 mile round trip to have a break from the wife and three kids is also not an essential journey!
"Well officer, it was either that or murdering them. So I chose the safer option."
-
@PleegWat Yesterday a couple made the news for being mindboggling stupid.
So, first they crossed the state line from Berlin to Mecklenburg-Vorpommern to get to the beach (infraction #1). Upon reaching said beach they proceeded to drive onto the beach (infraction #2).
Of course they got stuck (it's a sandy beach, after all. Who'd have guessed that it's a dumb idea to drive on loose sand or, more importantly, come to a stop on loose sand?)
The first tow truck ventured out a bit too far (cable not long enough, I guess) and got stuck as well. The second tow truck solved both problems, however. The police was not amused.
All in all: Two expensive infractions and a big fee for two tow trucks.
-
In a way I can agree with this old lady's stunt:
Look: 93-year-old woman's viral plea for beer answered by Coors - UPI.com
A 93-year-old Pennsylvania woman whose plea to neighbors for more beer went viral on social media is getting her request fulfilled by Coors.
It does not seem to be worth catching Covid-19 to fetch some light "beer".
(No comment on Coors as a brand because I have never tried it - though I have a feeling that I should keep it that way and stick to European brews)
-
@Polygeekery said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
So, Epstein is alive and well?
There's always an Epstein.
Not by that name. Not by that face. But the man behind the curtain, whispering temptation, is eternal....And, you know, his profession was the second oldest in history. Or maybe the oldest. Bit of a chicken-and-the-egg problem, that.
-
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Gurth Yeah, there are some dumb things happening, and it's hard to know whether it's just random things or more systematic (I mean, there are morons everywhere... arguably even more so in the police, although there has also been some reports of people trying to pull dumb shit like getting out with their hamster because you're allowed to go out to "walk your pet"!
).The mayor of Antwerp complained the other day that the lockdown rules in Bā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢m should be made clearer because else theyāre unenforceable, or so he claims. Iād say that maybe itās better to leave things to the discretion of individual police officers, because else youāll get all kinds of problems with people being allowed or not allowed to do things because theyāre just on the right or wrong side of some arbitrary, but clear spelled out, line which is highly unlikely to cover all possible scenarios.
It's the age-old tension in law between only stating the intent, and letting individual enforcers decide on individual cases (with the risk of inconsistencies and local abuses), versus crossing all the i's and dotting all the t's (what?), with the risk that you mention of people arguing that a y is not a i and finding loopholes. From my limited knowledge of the law, I would tend to say that on the whole and in Europe, the Latin world tends more towards the latter, while the Anglo-saxon and Nordic world is more towards the former. But really, you can find examples of both trends in all legal systems.
These forms are meaningless anyway: youāre supposed to print them out yourself!
Yes, as I said I get the feeling that they mostly are because the French administration cannot fathom something going on without a form. Though as I also said, I believe that they do have a merit, in that even the tiny effort needed to print and fill one might discourage some people to just go out on an impulse.
@cvi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I don't own a printer.
You can copy it on paper (yes, like a caveman). They've even said that you don't need to copy all the legalese that makes up most of the form and just put your name, address, and reason for going out (one of the 6 or 7 listed ones). And recently they've also introduced a website that generates a QR code with all the form's information and so you just need your phone when going out.
-
Oh and yesterday evening our president announced that we're staying in confinement until at least May 11th, and that at that time we might be able to start reopening schools (not higher education, which will stay closed until Summer), but not restaurants/cafes/...
I get the feeling that the closest we'll get to Summer holidays, the harder it will be for people to accept staying locked down. If they haven't lifted most individual restrictions by end of June (big public events have already been prohibited, but that's different), public adhesion to those rules will vanish very quickly. We don't care about sinking the economy, but don't touch to our Summer holidays!
-
@JBert said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
In a way I can agree with this old lady's stunt:
Look: 93-year-old woman's viral plea for beer answered by Coors - UPI.com
A 93-year-old Pennsylvania woman whose plea to neighbors for more beer went viral on social media is getting her request fulfilled by Coors.
It does not seem to be worth catching Covid-19 to fetch some light "beer".
(No comment on Coors as a brand as I have never tried it - though likely I should keep it that way and stick to European brews)
That is some free advertising for Coors, well played.
-
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
crossing all the i's and dotting all the t's (what?),
į¹« ÉØ
-
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's the age-old tension in law between only stating the intent, and letting individual enforcers decide on individual cases (with the risk of inconsistencies and local abuses), versus crossing all the i's and dotting all the t's (what?), with the risk that you mention of people arguing that a y is not a i and finding loopholes.
Both of these are why you can ask a judge to sort it out if you feel youāve been wronged. But I feel itās better to go for the former, certainly in situations like this, exactly because the enforcer having discretion will stop people gaming the system ā if someone feels they got a ticket when they shouldnāt have, they can always take it to court and get the money back if it really was a fine they didnāt deserve. (Then again, I always wonder at people who argue with police officers when they get a ticket. As if the cop is going to say, āYou know what? Iāll tear it up because youāre annoying me.ā)
From my limited knowledge of the law, I would tend to say that on the whole and in Europe, the Latin world tends more towards the latter, while the Anglo-saxon and Nordic world is more towards the former. But really, you can find examples of both trends in all legal systems.
I was thinking itās more a common law vs. civil law thing: common law tends to be more specific and civil law tends to be broader.
You can copy it on paper (yes, like a caveman).
That makes me think me of an incident that set a legal precedent here in the Netherlands in the 1980s, concerning the kind of stamps you get at supermarkets, to save for stuff. Rather than save up all the stamps needed, some family had laboriously drawn (by hand) copies of them in all the little squares on the booklet, then sent it in. The company had refused it, saying actual stamps were needed. The family took this to court, and the judge ruled in their favour ā meaning that from then on, copies of these kinds of stamps were legal too, though IIRC only if they had been made by hand, not by machine. I donāt remember the judgeās reasoning, though, nor what changed afterward to prevent this from being done anymore :(
-
@Gurth said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@remi said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
It's the age-old tension in law between only stating the intent, and letting individual enforcers decide on individual cases (with the risk of inconsistencies and local abuses), versus crossing all the i's and dotting all the t's (what?), with the risk that you mention of people arguing that a y is not a i and finding loopholes.
Both of these are why you can ask a judge to sort it out if you feel youāve been wronged. But I feel itās better to go for the former, certainly in situations like this, exactly because the enforcer having discretion will stop people gaming the system ā if someone feels they got a ticket when they shouldnāt have, they can always take it to court and get the money back if it really was a fine they didnāt deserve.
True (and I tend to agree with you overall, so I'm just arguing for the sake of the argument), but letting the enforcer decides isn't ideal either, as different enforcers will rule differently and you'll get someone happily doing X one day and then doing it again the next day and being controlled by a different officer who will rule differently. In the abstract, this will be "fixed" by a judge later, but in reality and before that happens, it's a mess (plus the number of people going to a judge for that is tiny, and even tinier if you remove all those who will go without having a real case...). And you don't need mischievous enforcement to get there, just different interpretations by different people. Uncertainty about how a law applies is very bad.
Basically, this boils down to "common sense" not being so "common" (i.e. shared) as it sounds!
Leaving the abstract and coming back to the reality on the ground, what I've heard around here (in France) is that police is, on the whole, holding a reasonable compromise. They will arrest and fine people who obviously flout the rules, but they will also be reasonably kind to people who have a good reason to go out. I mean, there are abuses like the ones mentioned up-thread (including the one I brought up myself and that happened to relatives, so not even friend-of-a-friend!) and as I said they should be brought up and fought against, but the overall impression I get is that they are really a minority.
So I'm not too concerned about the level of detail of the "allowed reasons" in the form (I'm more concerned about the idea of the form in the first place). It makes for an interesting abstract talking point and fuels ranting about the stupidity of over-precise rules, but practically speaking, that's about all.
-
No surprise there.
Putin Warns That Russia's COVID-19 Pandemic Is Getting Worse
A month ago, Vladimir Putin said the outbreak in Russia was "under control," but in a teleconference with health officials on Monday he acknowledged the situation was changing "not for the better."
-
I'm in a skype meeting, so I needed something else to focus my attention on... So, why not graphs for covid19?
It looks like pretty much every country in Europe is past the hump by now, with the exception of Ireland, Sweden, Poland and Netherlands. The big nations looks like they all hit the maximum spread rate about at the same time, all the small ones are all over the place.
But it looks like there will be a few weeks more at the very least.
Weekly deaths are also showing, perhaps not a good, but at least improving development for pretty much all countries.
-
@Carnage said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Netherlands
It's definitely improving here. New hospitalisations, IC admittances, and deaths are all showing downward trends. However, I get the impression many people thing this means restrictions will be reduced now (current measures are till 28 april; extensions will be announced on the 21st). I suspect those people are due a cold shower, and everything will be extended for another month at least once.
-
@PleegWat In Germany, tomorrow we'll hear what is planned after the 19th. Currently they're talking about reopening the schools in a limited fashion - beginning with primary schools and classes up to the tenth grade. Though only a selection thereof (not all grades), also only the major subjects (German, Mathematics, ...) and with classes being split in groups of less than 15 pupils in one room.
But we'll get the full mandate tomorrow, as I said. Everything before are either recommendations by expert panels or speculations by everyone else.
-
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
However, I get the impression many people thing this means restrictions will be reduced now (current measures are till 28 april; extensions will be announced on the 21st). I suspect those people are due a cold shower, and everything will be extended for another month at least once.
Unfortunately, I think you're correct. The Governor of Virginia (where I live) has been signalling that he's going to extend the stuff that's currently set to end in a week or so.
I think that we definitely are at a place where we need to start loosening some of the lock down aspects. I definitely think we're not ready for large gatherings (parties, concerts, in person spectator sports, etc) but should allow businesses to open if they can take reasonable precautions (limited people inside, distancing, wearing masks, etc).
Stuff isn't going to roar back immediately but the longer we hold off the worse it's going to be.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
However, I get the impression many people thing this means restrictions will be reduced now (current measures are till 28 april; extensions will be announced on the 21st). I suspect those people are due a cold shower, and everything will be extended for another month at least once.
Unfortunately, I think you're correct. The Governor of Virginia (where I live) has been signalling that he's going to extend the stuff that's currently set to end in a week or so.
I think that we definitely are at a place where we need to start loosening some of the lock down aspects. I definitely think we're not ready for large gatherings (parties, concerts, in person spectator sports, etc) but should allow businesses to open if they can take reasonable precautions (limited people inside, distancing, wearing masks, etc).
Stuff isn't going to roar back immediately but the longer we hold off the worse it's going to be.
I basically agree. But I'm worried about the (limited) ability of people to understand nuance. I'm afraid they'll see "loosening" as "removing" and will disregard precautions. Or at least a significant subset of them. Which will inevitably cause the Powers that Be to lock things down as an (over)reaction. And we'll bounce back and forth between full lock-down and full opening, like a motor that doesn't have variable speeds. And that will suck.
-
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
However, I get the impression many people thing this means restrictions will be reduced now (current measures are till 28 april; extensions will be announced on the 21st). I suspect those people are due a cold shower, and everything will be extended for another month at least once.
Unfortunately, I think you're correct. The Governor of Virginia (where I live) has been signalling that he's going to extend the stuff that's currently set to end in a week or so.
I think that we definitely are at a place where we need to start loosening some of the lock down aspects. I definitely think we're not ready for large gatherings (parties, concerts, in person spectator sports, etc) but should allow businesses to open if they can take reasonable precautions (limited people inside, distancing, wearing masks, etc).
Stuff isn't going to roar back immediately but the longer we hold off the worse it's going to be.
I basically agree. But I'm worried about the (limited) ability of people to understand nuance. I'm afraid they'll see "loosening" as "removing" and will disregard precautions. Or at least a significant subset of them. Which will inevitably cause the Powers that Be to lock things down as an (over)reaction. And we'll bounce back and forth between full lock-down and full opening, like a motor that doesn't have variable speeds. And that will suck.
No doubt. But I don't think it's too dissimilar from Prohibition. People should use alcohol in moderation. Some don't. But trying to prevent anyone from using it backfires big time and that's where we're headed with the lock downs.
I think that most people are being fairly responsible now that they have a better understanding of what's going on. As in literally every other case, I think we'll be better off depending on individuals than implementing a police state.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
However, I get the impression many people thing this means restrictions will be reduced now (current measures are till 28 april; extensions will be announced on the 21st). I suspect those people are due a cold shower, and everything will be extended for another month at least once.
Unfortunately, I think you're correct. The Governor of Virginia (where I live) has been signalling that he's going to extend the stuff that's currently set to end in a week or so.
I think that we definitely are at a place where we need to start loosening some of the lock down aspects. I definitely think we're not ready for large gatherings (parties, concerts, in person spectator sports, etc) but should allow businesses to open if they can take reasonable precautions (limited people inside, distancing, wearing masks, etc).
Stuff isn't going to roar back immediately but the longer we hold off the worse it's going to be.
I basically agree. But I'm worried about the (limited) ability of people to understand nuance. I'm afraid they'll see "loosening" as "removing" and will disregard precautions. Or at least a significant subset of them. Which will inevitably cause the Powers that Be to lock things down as an (over)reaction. And we'll bounce back and forth between full lock-down and full opening, like a motor that doesn't have variable speeds. And that will suck.
No doubt. But I don't think it's too dissimilar from Prohibition. People should use alcohol in moderation. Some don't. But trying to prevent anyone from using it backfires big time and that's where we're headed with the lock downs.
I think that most people are being fairly responsible now that they have a better understanding of what's going on. As in literally every other case, I think we'll be better off depending on individuals than implementing a police state.
Oh absolutely. I'm just a
realistpessimist about the intelligence of human beings.
-
@boomzilla A full business closure has never been enacted here, apart from 'contact professions' like hairdressers, nail salons, massage studios, the sex industry, etc, and horeca (pubs, restaurants, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if announcements next week include a framework of conditions under which part of those businesses can reopen.
Large-scale events are currently forbidden until 1 June; I expect that to be extended next week and I hope they bite the bullet and make it significant - November or so.
I'm not sure what to think of schools. Professional speculators currently don't even mention them. I think it will be good for the development of the kids for schools to reopen at least in some form for a couple of weeks before the summer holidays start; possibly part-time or alternating.
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
However, I get the impression many people thing this means restrictions will be reduced now (current measures are till 28 april; extensions will be announced on the 21st). I suspect those people are due a cold shower, and everything will be extended for another month at least once.
Unfortunately, I think you're correct. The Governor of Virginia (where I live) has been signalling that he's going to extend the stuff that's currently set to end in a week or so.
I think that we definitely are at a place where we need to start loosening some of the lock down aspects. I definitely think we're not ready for large gatherings (parties, concerts, in person spectator sports, etc) but should allow businesses to open if they can take reasonable precautions (limited people inside, distancing, wearing masks, etc).
Stuff isn't going to roar back immediately but the longer we hold off the worse it's going to be.
I basically agree. But I'm worried about the (limited) ability of people to understand nuance. I'm afraid they'll see "loosening" as "removing" and will disregard precautions. Or at least a significant subset of them. Which will inevitably cause the Powers that Be to lock things down as an (over)reaction. And we'll bounce back and forth between full lock-down and full opening, like a motor that doesn't have variable speeds. And that will suck.
I agree with your concern. I think a good move here is that for many things there hasn't been full lockdown in the first place - it has been very reactionary. Like how beaches were closed two weeks ago after a lot of people went there on the first warm weekend, or how flower bulb farmers are cutting off the flowers early to take away the reason for people to visit the fields.
-
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla A full business closure has never been enacted here, apart from 'contact professions' like hairdressers, nail salons, massage studios, the sex industry, etc, and horeca (pubs, restaurants, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if announcements next week include a framework of conditions under which part of those businesses can reopen.
Large-scale events are currently forbidden until 1 June; I expect that to be extended next week and I hope they bite the bullet and make it significant - November or so.
I'm not sure what to think of schools. Professional speculators currently don't even mention them. I think it will be good for the development of the kids for schools to reopen at least in some form for a couple of weeks before the summer holidays start; possibly part-time or alternating.
@Benjamin-Hall said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
However, I get the impression many people thing this means restrictions will be reduced now (current measures are till 28 april; extensions will be announced on the 21st). I suspect those people are due a cold shower, and everything will be extended for another month at least once.
Unfortunately, I think you're correct. The Governor of Virginia (where I live) has been signalling that he's going to extend the stuff that's currently set to end in a week or so.
I think that we definitely are at a place where we need to start loosening some of the lock down aspects. I definitely think we're not ready for large gatherings (parties, concerts, in person spectator sports, etc) but should allow businesses to open if they can take reasonable precautions (limited people inside, distancing, wearing masks, etc).
Stuff isn't going to roar back immediately but the longer we hold off the worse it's going to be.
I basically agree. But I'm worried about the (limited) ability of people to understand nuance. I'm afraid they'll see "loosening" as "removing" and will disregard precautions. Or at least a significant subset of them. Which will inevitably cause the Powers that Be to lock things down as an (over)reaction. And we'll bounce back and forth between full lock-down and full opening, like a motor that doesn't have variable speeds. And that will suck.
I agree with your concern. I think a good move here is that for many things there hasn't been full lockdown in the first place - it has been very reactionary. Like how beaches were closed two weeks ago after a lot of people went there on the first warm weekend, or how flower bulb farmers are cutting off the flowers early to take away the reason for people to visit the fields.
That seems saner that what we have. And I feel that the longer the full lock-down goes on in any fashion, the worse the over-reaction to loosening will be. Especially once weather warms up a lot in places without AC in every building. Like NYC.
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
As in literally every other case, I think we'll be better off depending on individuals than implementing a police state.
They missed the boat on that already.
-
@Benjamin-Hall The big one here, I think, is the recommendation to not visit family except when necessary. General distance keeping and not going shopping in groups can probably be maintained much longer.
Thinking about it, I wouldn't be surprised if they increased the recommended visitor limit next week. Allow people to have visitors on their birthdays again, as long as it doesn't go large-scale.
-
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
I agree with your concern. I think a good move here is that for many things there hasn't been full lockdown in the first place - it has been very reactionary. Like how beaches were closed two weeks ago after a lot of people went there on the first warm weekend, or how flower bulb farmers are cutting off the flowers early to take away the reason for people to visit the fields.
It's all over the place in the US since it's up to states. The Feds have very little control over most things. I think that locking down in places where it was spreading was reasonable, if only because we all knew so little about the disease.
It now seems that it's not typically spread by casual contact but something like at least 15 minutes of relatively close contact (or obviously direct contact) with a contagious person, so there are really a lot of things that we can do safely.
Closing parks and beaches has really made the least sense of just about anything. It's super easy to maintain distancing outside in those kinds of environments which are pretty naturally hostile to transmission.
-
Visualizing the History of Pandemics
Over time, infectious diseases have been humanity's constant companion. We've visualized the history of pandemics, from the Antonine Plague to COVID-19
-
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Closing parks and beaches has really made the least sense of just about anything. It's super easy to maintain distancing outside in those kinds of environments which are pretty naturally hostile to transmission.
Beaches tend to draw packed crowds. It was also early days of the lockdown, so they may have wanted to make a statement.
Parks, here, have generally remained open. In fact, parks are one of the recommended place to go out for some fresh air - but it should be a local park. Travelling 20-30 minutes by car to go to a park or beach elsewhere is a different thing entirely.
-
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
In fact, parks are one of the recommended place to go out for some fresh air - but it should be a local park. Travelling 20-30 minutes by car to go to a park or beach elsewhere is a different thing entirely.
Why?
Aren't you social distancing in your car just as much as you are in your home?
-
@GuyWhoKilledBear
I think the theory is you're "cross-contaminating" your neighborhood with virus contact from 20+ miles away, rather than just staying in small little disconnected zones to make it more likely that areas that do have the virus let the virus peter out before they transmit the virus to areas that don't have it right now.
-
@izzion said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@GuyWhoKilledBear
I think the theory is you're "cross-contaminating" your neighborhood with virus contact from 20+ miles away, rather than just staying in small little disconnected zones to make it more likely that areas that do have the virus let the virus peter out before they transmit the virus to areas that don't have it right now.Which makes sense. Less sense in the US, where neighborhoods are much less self-sufficient--my neighborhood doesn't have any significant stores in it. The nearest grocery store is about 1.5 miles away, and the one I normally go to is about 2.5 miles. And draws people from all over the area.
I'm leaning toward the idea of stringent quarantine zones around the hot spots and much less so outside of them. As in no traffic in or out except trucks carrying supplies. Medical workers should be housed within the hot spot so they don't go outside of it. Places like Miami, NYC (and the bedroom districts in NJ), Detroit, etc. Sure, you won't get everyone and it won't be perfect. But those places account for the bulk of all cases in the US. Lock those down and most of the rest of the country can just go on almost as normal. Still keep big gatherings out most places, plus most air travel to be safe.
-
@Benjamin-Hall
As much as this will probably be seen as drifting into
territory... I'm leaning toward agreement with the "this isn't that much worse than the flu" camp. With both the testing of the Diamond Princess passengers (where roughly half of the positive tests showed no symptoms at all) and the first limited antibody testing such as the German town of Gangelt showing that the number of people with antibodies are significantly higher than the number of "confirmed cases"... I think there's pretty persuasive evidence that the death rate is being overstated simply because we're dramatically too low with our number of people who have coronavirus.Everyone's all up in arms over a 1-2% death rate, but if you model with 1 extra (asymptomatic and therefore untested) case for every confirmed case, then that instantly cuts the case fatality rate in half. (Or, alternatively, the authors of the Gangelt study extrapolated their data to suggest Germany's true CFR should be less than 1/4th of the current calculated CFR). And a fatality rate of 0.4%-1% of all cases, while not a good number, doesn't seem to be that much more significant than other seasonal respiratory illnesses (e.g. the flu) that we deal with without locking everyone down.
-
@PleegWat said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
@boomzilla said in Tales from Coronavee-rooss Italy, mamma mia!:
Closing parks and beaches has really made the least sense of just about anything. It's super easy to maintain distancing outside in those kinds of environments which are pretty naturally hostile to transmission.
Beaches tend to draw packed crowds.
Define "packed." I've rarely been on a beach where I wasn't at least six feet apart from people aside from my family.
It was also early days of the lockdown, so they may have wanted to make a statement.
Yeah, the problem with that sort of thing is that in the medium to long term it's counterproductive because it's obviously silly.
Parks, here, have generally remained open. In fact, parks are one of the recommended place to go out for some fresh air - but it should be a local park. Travelling 20-30 minutes by car to go to a park or beach elsewhere is a different thing entirely.
Except...I don't see the big deal about driving like that.
Devon and Cornwall Roads Policing Team š on Twitter
