Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications
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I am @accalia, and so can you.
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@strangeways said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Somebody just move them all to a tropical island with a lot of bananas and pineapples and be done with their fucking drama.
You never cease to amaze me, despite months and months of reading your tirades.
@Jaloopa said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
This is the actual paid staff. It would be hilarious if they had a bonus structure tied to their scores
You may just be onto something. Trying to downvote now gives
This post has been locked; locked posts can't be voted on
Coincidence?
People with (reputation-based) editing power kept editing the post, so a moderator locked it. In theory the lock was just until the staff were in the office again and could choose how to respond themselves.
Perhaps Staff posts should always be edit-locked?
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@Parody said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@strangeways said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Somebody just move them all to a tropical island with a lot of bananas and pineapples and be done with their fucking drama.
You never cease to amaze me, despite months and months of reading your tirades.
@Jaloopa said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
This is the actual paid staff. It would be hilarious if they had a bonus structure tied to their scores
You may just be onto something. Trying to downvote now gives
This post has been locked; locked posts can't be voted on
Coincidence?
People with (reputation-based) editing power kept editing the post, so a moderator locked it. In theory the lock was just until the staff were in the office again and could choose how to respond themselves.
Perhaps Staff posts should always be edit-locked?
One of SE's staff unlocked it about 30 minutes before you explained why they locked it. :P
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@Vixen said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
But..... I can give hugs. Hugs will help.
And if they turn into passionate hugs, all the better!
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I wondered how long it would take for @Tsaukpaetra and @Vixen to get together...
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This post is deleted!
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@error_bot gif robot sex
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Giphy said in https://giphy.com/gifs/star-wars-tdbOA2fGn3q7e :
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@error_bot giphy popcorn eating
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Vixen said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
But..... I can give hugs. Hugs will help.
And if they turn into passionate hugs, all the better!
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
What the hell does that even mean?
I don't remember where I heard this, but the phrase "cis is a word used to make normal people feel marginalized" has always stuck with me...
That’s pretty ironic. You’re complaining about a word used to “marginalize“ you when you think that the distinction should be trans vs. normal people.
Normal is also pretty non-descriptive without context. Would you replace “cis straight white male” with “normal normal white male”? “Normal^3 male”?Filed under: normal^4
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
What the hell does that even mean?
I don't remember where I heard this, but the phrase "cis is a word used to make normal people feel marginalized" has always stuck with me...
That’s pretty ironic. You’re complaining about a word used to “marginalize“ you when you think that the distinction should be trans vs. normal people.
Normal is also pretty non-descriptive without context. Would you replace “cis straight white male” with “normal normal white male”? “Normal^3 male”?Filed under: normal^4
Easy: levicki is normal.
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@_P_ what is he perpendicular to?
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@levicki while I disagree with your post here almost entirely, and slightly disagree with your follow-up (mostly because of how you generalized it and phrased it), I find it intriguing that it gets downvoted into oblivion because it's by you, while similar opinions seem not uncommon inside and outside the garage. I mean, it is a pretty garage-y post, but "shitty opinion by @levicki" somehow is less acceptable than "shitty opinion" by everyone else.
For the record, none of the trans people I know are of the screeching "respect my
authoritapronouns" kind (although I've had similarly stupid discussions with fellow cis people in support of this). They would certainly like it if you give them the decency to use the correct pronouns, but not go around giving everyone shit for using the wrong one by innocent mistake.
People screaming about "cis normative shitlords" are probably shitlords themselves, but that doesn't mean all trans people are "attention whores", only that the attention whores are. See Sturgeon's law.
You're right, fuck their drama. But on the flip side, this doesn't justify intentionally being an asshole to all the rest of them who just want to be treated decently.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
but "shitty opinion by @levicki" somehow is less acceptable than "shitty opinion" by everyone else.
and when @levicki is right it is more acceptable than anyone else being right
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@_P_ what is he perpendicular to?
The bi-normal, of course
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@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
but "shitty opinion by @levicki" somehow is less acceptable than "shitty opinion" by everyone else.
and when @levicki is right it is more acceptable than anyone else being right
I’m not familiar with this form of subjunctive.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki while I disagree with your post here almost entirely, and slightly disagree with your follow-up (mostly because of how you generalized it and phrased it), I find it intriguing that it gets downvoted into oblivion because it's by you, while similar opinions seem not uncommon inside and outside the garage. I mean, it is a pretty garage-y post, but "shitty opinion by @levicki" somehow is less acceptable than "shitty opinion" by everyone else.
For the record, none of the trans people I know are the of the screeching "respect my
authoritapronouns" kind (although I've had similarly stupid discussions with fellow cis people in support of this).The latter is the worst kind, the "will somebody think of the
childrentrans people" kind wanting to claim the moral high ground by defending others.Oh well. They're human too, but they can be all the more annoying because they can represent whoever they choose to at any given moment.
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@JBert The converse is true, however, also for the other side who regularly trot out the "slippery slope" which also uses a similar tactic - wanting to prevent the potential infringment of the rights of others.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Vixen Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case here. The code is such a powerful rule that the event that sparked this entire mess occurred when they demodded someone on suspicion that they were likely to break, at some future point, a rule from the still-unreleased Code of Conduct. Which was received by the community about as well as you'd expect.
That reminds me of something from English history. In the aftermath of Henry VII's seizure of the throne, one of his potential opponents was imprisoned and, if memory serves, executed because he was suspected of having received an invitation to go to Ireland.
According to my family, in the aftermath of the Communist takeover of China, my grand-uncle was killed by the Chinese government for the crime of having received a letter from a relative who moved to Taiwan, asking him to join Taiwan.
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@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Vixen said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
COCs
Corruption of Champions?
I didn't know there was such a large fan base for that game.
Fenoxo must be ecstatic.
See, now I know you're @accalia.
No typos, no @accalia
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@Rhywden said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@JBert The converse is true, however, also for the other side who regularly trot out the "slippery slope" which also uses a similar tactic - wanting to prevent the potential infringment of the rights of others.
Huh?
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@pie_flavor said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Rhywden said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@JBert The converse is true, however, also for the other side who regularly trot out the "slippery slope" which also uses a similar tactic - wanting to prevent the potential infringment of the rights of others.
Huh?
I had the same initial reaction. I think @Rhywden is talking about the situations where people see everything as a zero-sum game, where e.g. giving some minority the right to censor offensive language after said people file a complaint will get some other people jumping on the barricades as an immediate threat to free speech (even though said right might be infrequently used and very limited). So In this example I think he meant the latter kind (mind you, only a strawman - any further discussion on free speech or white-knighting can go to the garage or salon).
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@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
The latter is the worst kind, the "will somebody think of the
childrentrans people" kind wanting to claim the moral high ground by defending others.Oh well. They're human too, but they can be all the more annoying because they can represent whoever they choose to at any given moment.
Are we sure SJWs are human?
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@dcon said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
The latter is the worst kind, the "will somebody think of the
childrentrans people" kind wanting to claim the moral high ground by defending others.Oh well. They're human too, but they can be all the more annoying because they can represent whoever they choose to at any given moment.
Are we sure SJWs are human?
No, they're skeletons.
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@levicki A person doesn't need to be trans to have a preference of pronouns, although that may not significantly increase the proportion of people who do so.
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@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@levicki A person doesn't need to be trans to have a preference of pronouns, although that may not significantly increase the proportion of people who do so.
I’m not sure if you’re being clever (as in most people don’t like to be called with wrong pronouns) or talking about non-trans people who still prefer pronouns other than what you’d expect or even change them arbitrarily.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
I’m not sure if you’re being clever (as in most people don’t like to be called with wrong pronouns) or talking about non-trans people who still prefer pronouns other than what you’d expect or even change them arbitrarily.
The latter as I'd not thought about the former.
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The official "apology"'s score is now below -1k points. That must be some kind of record.
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@Zerosquare The next time they need to issue an official apology, it'll get closed as a duplicate.
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https://letter.artofcode.co.uk
Open letter to SE, signed by 38 remaining moderators, including myself.
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@topspin said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
but "shitty opinion by @levicki" somehow is less acceptable than "shitty opinion" by everyone else.
Most popular shitting-on-target I guess.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
remaining moderators, including myself.
You're a SO moderator? TIL.
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@Tsaukpaetra Not SO. Christianity.SE, since the beginning of the site.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
https://letter.artofcode.co.uk
Open letter to SE, signed by 38 remaining moderators, including myself.
Very well written, an order of magnitude better than what any of the Stack Overflow staff have put out in a week's time.
I would have liked a request for some more clarity about the dismissal of Monica Cellio though, because the official reply so far has been a hard-line "what's been done is done, no take backsies" instead of any sort of compromise. Following the procedure might have the same outcome of course (and assumes miss Cellio still wants to volunteer), the way it has been done now stinks and lack of appeal feels rather draconian. The letter only has next steps for the short term future, not the recent past.
Anyway, what's the word on Strike Overflow?
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@JBert The word is basically what we've all heard. The corporate masters are firmly in charge for the moment. All any of us can do, including the mods, is make our displeasure known.
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@cvi said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
All this preferred pronoun stuff makes me wish my English was (even) worse and that I had a background in a language without gendered pronouns. I have some friends and relatives that simply power through any conversation with a random (roughly 50/50%) choice between she/he (him/her, etc) with little regard to actual genders. (Which, after all, in their native language don't exist in that context.)
Or be like my kids (<5 years old) who lisp a little bit, as children are wont to do, so both "he" and "she" come out more like "hsee."
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
With those numbers out of the way, for any sane person it should be totally safe to assume (using simple probability) that the chances of some unknown person they are addressing being trans are totally insignificant.
But beware of multiple testing! With one person, 99% change of getting right is okay. With multiple persons at the same time, the chance to get all them right at the same time becomes
pow(.99, N)
and the chance of at least one error becomes1 - pow(.99, N)
, which is close to 1 for large values ofN
.Sorry to interrupt. Over here people make this mistake when dealing with multiple predictors (or worse, multiple p-values) a lot. I got burned by it myself.
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@loopback0 should close this one as not constructive or something
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Zerosquare said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
The official "apology"'s score is now below -1k points. That must be some kind of record.
Let it be known that I eagerly clicked "Join this community" and confirmed account creation (I already had SO account) just to be able to downvote it myself.
@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
https://letter.artofcode.co.uk
Open letter to SE, signed by 38 remaining moderators, including myself.
My main takeaway from that open letter is this part:
That same community member is now described in the press with language that can be taken to imply she is an extremist and a bigot. This news article is now the top search report for her name, which may cause her serious issues in real life, with her friends, her family, and her career.
It seems that if you dare to disagree with whatever that vocal faction of trans people deems "proper" there is no room for a civilized debate -- you instantly get labeled with one or more of "bigot, chauvinist, mysogynist, extremist, sexist, shitlord, cis-normative, homophobe, heterosexist", and publicly shamed with the possiblity of serious real-life consequences -- the kind of consequences those same trans people were fighting for decades to avoid themselves. For me, that reeks of hypocrisy.
Yeah, that's been the case for some time now and I think that we're about at the point where society at large will start ignoring anything trans people say because they've extensively cried wolf for the better part of a decade now.
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@loopback0 said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Zerosquare The next time they need to issue an official apology, it'll get closed as a duplicate.
Sometimes I wish I could upvote a post 100 times and this is one of those posts.
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What confuses me the most is how StackExchange expected all of its moderators to develop psychic powers.
I mean, how else are you supposed to know a person's preferred pronouns the first time you interact with them?
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@levicki said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@Zerosquare said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
The official "apology"'s score is now below -1k points. That must be some kind of record.
Let it be known that I eagerly clicked "Join this community" and confirmed account creation (I already had SO account) just to be able to downvote it myself.
@Mason_Wheeler said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
https://letter.artofcode.co.uk
Open letter to SE, signed by 38 remaining moderators, including myself.
My main takeaway from that open letter is this part:
That same community member is now described in the press with language that can be taken to imply she is an extremist and a bigot. This news article is now the top search report for her name, which may cause her serious issues in real life, with her friends, her family, and her career.
It seems that if you dare to disagree with whatever that vocal faction of trans people deems "proper" there is no room for a civilized debate -- you instantly get labeled with one or more of "bigot, chauvinist, mysogynist, extremist, sexist, shitlord, cis-normative, homophobe, heterosexist", and publicly shamed with the possiblity of serious real-life consequences -- the kind of consequences those same trans people were fighting for decades to avoid themselves. For me, that reeks of hypocrisy.
Do you really believe that stack exchange is now run by trans people only? Because this whole drama has been caused not by someone ranting on Twitter but by the employees of the company. Hey, if you want to go this road, let's be honest: this could all easily be the fault of crab of lizard people, for all we now.
Someone expressed their bewilderment to the fact that levicki gets downvoted more than other people with similar opinions. That's because he's prone to overgeneralizing in this particular way, time and time again. And it becomes hard to believe that what he said was not actually what he meant and that there might be more nuance to his opinion than that.
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@kt_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Oh, and a news article.
People are getting angry that The Register got more of a response out of the top brass in that article than could be found on the site itself, when you would think that the job of those people is managing the site...
They said "our CoC is not up for debate".
Btw, this is exactly what I keep telling my girl. And that she should start taking it seriously finally, or I'm gonna shadowban her into the oblivion. Thankfully c she doesn't understand what "shadowban" is because she's not a nerd and she's pretty stable psychologically and emotionally, so she's actually interesting and she never needed to visit WTDWTF, which also means she's still a cheerful person with a positive outlook on life.
To be honest, I think that registering on these boards has scarred me for life. And now the therapy eats a large chunk of my income.
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@kt_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@kt_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@JBert said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
@_P_ said in Stack Exchange experiences Stack Meltdown, by enforcing preferred pronouns in site-wide communications:
Oh, and a news article.
People are getting angry that The Register got more of a response out of the top brass in that article than could be found on the site itself, when you would think that the job of those people is managing the site...
They said "our CoC is not up for debate".
To be honest, I think that registering on these boards has scarred me for life.
I'd dispute which one is the cause and which is the effect.
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@error_bot xkcd p-value