I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit
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I'm getting the feeling the Docs have generally turned to shit over the whole .NET Core 1.1 -> 2.0 -> 2.1 migrations. I was looking up something that was not working the way it should and the now that the docs feedback are basically github issues, the comment thread went something like
(This is for ASP .NET Core 2.1)
Poor sod #1: Hey X is not working like it is supposed to be?
Poor sod #2: Did you look at the docs at that link?
Poor sod: Yeah but what is the answer to my question though?
MS Team guy #1: Oh yeah You could do that in previous versions, not sure how it is done in the current version, paging MS Team Guy #2
MS Team guy #2: Oh yeah that's a bug in version 2.1 lulzHmm, alright seems like a lot of fun, let us head to Github and read the whole thread. More of the same "shit is not working like it is supposed to work" and then somebody from the MS team drops this
"Yeah I hear you this is probably something we should address in 2.2, agreed?"
Holy fuck. So let us get this straight. You say Core 2.1 is ready for production use. Then there is a buggy feature which fucks up what existed in the full .NET framework and then also in .NET Core 2.0. borked in 2.1 which you're fixing in 2.2.0 preview-1
The docs are basically a mix of the previous version, the current version with the breaking changes or new features are posted as comments to issues on fucking Github.
If I want to get shit done, I gotta basically go read up the docs and the Github comments to actually learn how to use the fucking thing and after I implement it, when I wanna upgrade to the next version, lo and behold breaking changes that will be addressed in the version next to that. SO MUCH FUN.
This is the last fucking straw. .NET Core 1.1 to 2.0 was forgivable. Fucking around with the documentation like this is just wasting my fucking time.
I am done with these motherfuckers. I hate the alternative but guess it's gonna be Python / Django for me. They atleast have documentation that is a fucking joy to read.
EDIT: GitHub thread at
and
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I'm trying to follow along, but the mess they made with NET standard VS NET core and various incompatible versions and abandoned ideas make my head spin.
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
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@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
I'm trying to follow along, but the mess they made with NET standard VS NET core and various incompatible versions and abandoned ideas make my head spin.
I've tried to follow this shit for close to a year now and realise now this has been very exhausting.
@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
Would have to probably wait 5 years for these folks to settle down assuming they don't have a .NET Core 12.0 -> 12.1 -> 12.2 nonsense then.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Would have to probably wait 5 years for these folks to settle down assuming they don't have a .NET Core 12.0 -> 12.1 -> 12.2 nonsense then.
Sounds to me like that stuff isn't stable enough to be used for production code.
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@dkf I'm dying to know what guys at MS think "ready for production" actually is.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
that's a bug in version 2.1 lulz
You know what's amazing? I heard they were going to end-of-life v2.0 already. What that shit!
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@dkf I'm dying to know what guys at MS think "ready for production" actually is.
Based off their track record, like ME and Vista, I guess WOMM is good enough!
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@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
Previously we were protected by their shenanigans behind closed doors a bit more firmly. Now we can see the insanity in full view.
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@tsaukpaetra said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
that's a bug in version 2.1 lulz
You know what's amazing? I heard they were going to end-of-life v2.0 already. What that shit!
LOLOLOLOL This piece of info is soooooooooooo fucking old and irrelevant cos we gonn get .NET Core 3.0!!!!
I will definitely keep an eye out for how the documentation is gonna get clusterfucked with all this nonsense going on.
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@tsaukpaetra said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
Previously we were protected by their shenanigans behind closed doors a bit more firmly. Now we can see the insanity in full view.
Seems so. I honestly expected to see better. Don't know why.
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@atazhaia said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@dkf I'm dying to know what guys at MS think "ready for production" actually is.
Based off their track record, like ME and Vista, I guess WOMM is good enough!
But the docs are always in a state of "It used to WOMM. What happened today lulz wtf". SMH.
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@stillwater Hahahahaha, burn, heathens!
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@gribnit said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater Hahahahaha, burn, heathens!
Did not know using MS Tech makes people heathens
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@gribnit said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater Hahahahaha, burn, heathens!
Did not know using MS Tech makes people heathens
I'd rather be a heathen lunitix than a mactardigrate.
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I find it quite telling that the support lifecycle page only lists .NET Core 1.0 / 1.1 as an LTS release. Anything else will be stabilized "Soon".
Mind you, Oracle's Java has a somewhat similar lunacy now that they're making frequent major releases.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
turned to shit
Cue open source blakeyrant.
Deservingly so.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
LOLOLOLOL This piece of info is soooooooooooo fucking old and irrelevant cos we gonn get .NET Core 3.0!!!!
So, Some Microsoft Guy writes a blog post which contains this graphic:
https://msdnshared.blob.core.windows.net/media/2018/05/netcore3-1024x983.png
Notice over on the right, the words "Cross Platform" under the Apple and Linux logos. Which leads to people asking about cross platform stuff and Microsoft Guy responding with a lot of WTF-ery.
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@stillwater They say if you want to keep eating sausages, you should never, ever have any curiosity as to how they are made.
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With all the fuckwitery going on with .Net Core... Is there anything that prevents people from using ye olde .Net Framework 4.7 for new applications?
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@gąska I guess not. But the problem I have with the old .NET framework is even though there are tons of books about it out there but some of the docs are outdated as fuck and I use only docs when I'm working on stuff. There s also a lot of "you should use our new and shiny .NET Core" and "Yeah this got borked somewhere along the way and maybe try this Google link" sprinkled all over the place. Also the docs are unorganized compared to what we have for .NET Core. I guess people at MS jumped on to . NET Core and just left the old . NET framework docs to rot. With all the open source wankery going on, nobody seems to be giving half a fuck about the solid old framework.
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@el_heffe said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
LOLOLOLOL This piece of info is soooooooooooo fucking old and irrelevant cos we gonn get .NET Core 3.0!!!!
So, Some Microsoft Guy writes a blog post which contains this graphic:
https://msdnshared.blob.core.windows.net/media/2018/05/netcore3-1024x983.png
Notice over on the right, the words "Cross Platform" under the Apple and Linux logos. Which leads to people asking about cross platform stuff and Microsoft Guy responding with a lot of WTF-ery.
The comments section are far more interesting than the actual post wtf cross platform circle jerk make it stop someone pls
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
I am done with these motherfuckers. I hate the alternative but guess it's gonna be Python / Django for me. They atleast have documentation that is a fucking joy to read.
Try Rust. Rust is fun as hell.
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@pie_flavor would love to. But no one hires for rust around here and I don't have time for exploring new stuff at the moment either. Gotta stick to what I know :(
Im open to including other programming paradigms in my shit though like FP or whatever. Assuming that's not another whole bag of WTFs
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@stillwater You mean like F#? I hear it runs on .NET Core!
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@stillwater More seriously though .NET Core doesn't suck as bad as you make it out to. You may end up having to experiment a bit to get stuff working properly rather than having all the answers immediately but it's far better than what Java does which is be incredibly shitty and document it well, or what Python does which is be incredibly shitty and apologize for it and refuse to fix it.
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@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater You mean like F#? I hear it runs on .NET Core!
No I mean like functional programming in python or java or C#. Not a FP language.i tried using Haskell once and tried writing hello world and ended up getting my dick stuck in a fan or however that meme goes. No pure FP for me.
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@stillwater That's actually what I like about F#. Languages like Haskell or Elixir constrain you to pure functional but F# lets you do nonfunctional things like mutable state. You're encouraged to not use them, and the language is designed around not using them, but you can use them if you need to, because real production environments tend to involve side effects.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
let us head to Github and read the whole thread
It would be helpful if you actually posted a link to it...
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@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater More seriously though .NET Core doesn't suck as bad as you make it out to. You may end up having to experiment a bit to get stuff working properly rather than having all the answers immediately but it's far better than what Java does which is be incredibly shitty and document it well, or what Python does which is be incredibly shitty and apologize for it and refuse to fix it.
This is not about .NET Core per se. It's bout the fucking docs. Me still thinks if executed right then this is the only stack I LL use for all my stuff.the problem is with the docs. Because of the breaking changes, the docs for both the .NET 2.0 and 2.1 versions don't work and that's the biggest problem I have. I'd rather have giant warnings all over the place that says doc is wrong rather than having docs that look like they are right when they are actually WRONG. That pisses me off.
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@masonwheeler said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
let us head to Github and read the whole thread
It would be helpful if you actually posted a link to it...
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@pie_flavor yeah, except the Rust ecosystem is still a mess, so for most use cases, you have to write almost everything from scratch. There are DB drivers, there are HTTP servers, there are templating engines, but there's nothing that could connect them all together. Also, how futures work is about to change completely (technically not a breaking change, because until now, they were provided by 3rd party library). I'd give it 2 more years before using it for web.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater You mean like F#? I hear it runs on .NET Core!
No I mean like functional programming in python or java or C#. Not a FP language.i tried using Haskell once and tried writing hello world and ended up getting my dick stuck in a fan or however that meme goes. No pure FP for me.
Haskell is the most extreme, most extremist, most pure, most puritan functional programming out there. Other FP languages aren't even half as crazy as that. Really, I promise!
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@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
With all the fuckwitery going on with .Net Core... Is there anything that prevents people from using ye olde .Net Framework 4.7 for new applications?
I would use 4.6.2 for assemblies that might be used elsewhere, and 4.7.2 for the actual application.
4.6.2 is the latest version of full framework where the resulting DLL can still be consumed by a .NET Core application. Sure, the landscape's a mess right now, but I like leaving my options open.
Otherwise, 4.7.2 is the version with the best compatibility with .NET Standard right now. A large number of library authors have (reasonably) moved to using .NET Standard, but there's some tooling issues that make consuming them subpar on earlier versions.
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@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@pie_flavor said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater You mean like F#? I hear it runs on .NET Core!
No I mean like functional programming in python or java or C#. Not a FP language.i tried using Haskell once and tried writing hello world and ended up getting my dick stuck in a fan or however that meme goes. No pure FP for me.
Haskell is the most extreme, most extremist, most pure, most puritan functional programming out there. Other FP languages aren't even half as crazy as that. Really, I promise!
I had to take a course at Uni that used Haskell exclusively and also I was on alcohol most waking hours. I did extremely well in the class but had no fucking idea what I was doing.
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@unperverted-vixen This already making me head spin :( :(
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@stillwater that's about the only kind of programmers that use Haskell: drunk, have no idea what they're doing, and at uni. The last one seems to be most important.
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@pie_flavor Seeing how it's .NET I might actually give it a shot, at least for class libraries and such.
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@gąska oh yesss. The programs we wrote were mostly Mathematical circle jerk and formal logic and bizarre shit. Never even wrote a hello world. Half the fun was watching the professor cuss under his breath tryna find out the bugs.
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We had some brief dalliances with Core at WtfCorp.
We'll be sticking to the full fat framework.
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@weng We're using ASP.NET Core at AFR WebDev, and we aren't running into any serious problems with it. About the closest we've come was needing to access a legacy MySQL database and having it break badly. A bit of Googling revealed that the official Oracle driver was using stuff from EF Core's
Internals
namespace, which was explicitly stuff you're not supposed to use, because it can change without notice. After switching to a 3rd party MySQL driver, everything worked fine.
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Oh Fuck off with this shit fuckwits.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@dkf I'm dying to know what guys at MS think "ready for production" actually is.
Well... Open Source and Agile now... so - 2 weeks.
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@stillwater Why'd you even start using it. It should have been obvious from day one how much a cluster fuck this would turn into.
Lo and behold, it has.
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@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
That's because the kind of people who like open source are used to this, because ALL their software is this shitty.
If you've lived your entire life in a toilet bowl, you're going to be real excited to see a cleaner toilet bowl. If you're anybody else, you look and just see a big turd floating around.
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@el_heffe The only good thing about that diagram is it shows they still consider Windows Forms a thing worth not-breaking. (Not that that means it won't be broken. But. Still.)
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@gąska said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
With all the fuckwitery going on with .Net Core... Is there anything that prevents people from using ye olde .Net Framework 4.7 for new applications?
I'd recommend doing that for the foreseeable future.
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@masonwheeler said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
It would be helpful if you actually posted a link to it...
How would that be relevant?
The complaint is that the only "correct" documentation is in a bug tracker IN THE FIRST PLACE. The specific URL is irrelevant.
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater Why'd you even start using it. It should have been obvious from day one how much a cluster fuck this would turn into.
The promises of improved performance in ASP.NET Core are attractive.
(As are Razor Pages for their ability to segment controllers up better. But that's at least not impossible to do on MVC 5, it just requires writing lots of routing rules.)
Lo and behold, it has.
They've actually managed to make it worse than I would have ever guessed.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
The comments section are far more interesting than the actual post wtf cross platform circle jerk make it stop someone pls
The comment lulz start immediately:
Dude: Dose this mean we are oona have wpf on linux?
Microsoft Guy: There is no support for Linux or macOS. This is covered in the post.
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At last my boss gave me a small assignment with .NET Core and modern web tech (keep in mind everyone still writes the Javascript that goes to the browser by hand with JQuery in my company). A basic website and REST API that would take a couple of days to implement using classic ASP.NET MVC and JQuery. Well, so far it's been a week and I'm still stuck with the login page, because configuring ASP.NET Identity Core and all the javascript build tools is a huge PITA and it takes me hours to find an bug only to find another one. Oh and HTTPS redirection doesn't work properly so I had to enable CORS and configure services in the right order to get it to work. My boss is getting a bit impatient...