Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.
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So, the list contains,
- We can't control robots that big. Which is speculation, because we haven't got past the point where we can make metal that large and strong and not collapse in on itself.
- Walking is hard because the robot follows human movement which is much more complex solution than automating. Which is backwards because getting a more complex solution to work because you need its complexity is by definition more advanced.
- Jaegars don't do what we are using robots to do. Um.... ok. I think you might have a correct and valid argument here about AI that was lost in the stupid forest.
Pacific Rim's Robots Are Less Advanced Than Some of Today's Real Robots
The Jaegers of Pacific Rim are impressive. The ones we have in real life are even better. A robotics expert weighs in.
So, speculation, wrong, inapplicable, followed by a non-sequitur.
Great argument.
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@xaade Yeah well articles written due to payola are unlikely to be very good.
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The first one also argues against the supposed point of the article, "our real-life technology is actually much more advanced". The first argument in support of this is "this thing in the movie can't be done in reality"?!
On the third point:
In Pacific Rim, pilots use Jaegers as weapons against hostile aliens. In reality, we’re far more likely to design robotic exoskeletons to allow humans to do everyday tasks more easily and safely.
Well, yes, I imagine the proportion of real-life robots that are used as weapons against hostile aliens is approximately zero. That would probably change if we ever encountered some, though.
I really hope the reporting is what's stupid here, and not the actual published article. But paywall, so who knows?
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
So, speculation, wrong, inapplicable, followed by a non-sequitur.
Great argument.
Yes, it's a poorly written piece that doesn't really make any good points.
And nobody ever mentions the biggest problem with giant walking robots -- that has been obvious since the first Star Wars movie 40 years ago.
How did the rebels take down the "Walkers"? They tripped them. They wrapped a cable around its legs, causing it to go crashing to the ground.
Nobody thought of that when they were being designed?
https://i.imgur.com/4FqnpIw.png
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@el_heffe said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Nobody thought of that when they were being designed?
That's why they next made four-legged versions!
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@el_heffe said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Nobody thought of that when they were being designed?
The Trello card for that has been stuck in the backlog for ages, but hey, we're aware of the problem!
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@xaade the whole concept is retarded (we've discussed this before) but it makes for fun action scenes.
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@el_heffe said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
So, speculation, wrong, inapplicable, followed by a non-sequitur.
Great argument.
Yes, it's a poorly written piece that doesn't really make any good points.
And nobody ever mentions the biggest problem with giant walking robots -- that has been obvious since the first Star Wars movie 40 years ago.
How did the rebels take down the "Walkers"? They tripped them. They wrapped a cable around its legs, causing it to go crashing to the ground.
Nobody thought of that when they were being designed?
https://i.imgur.com/4FqnpIw.pngThere were no walkers in Star Wars(1). The first ones that we see are in The Empire Strikes Back, on Hoth.
@tsaukpaetra said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@el_heffe said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Nobody thought of that when they were being designed?
That's why they next made four-legged versions!
The ones on Hoth were the four-legged versions that got cable-tripped. Tripping two-legged ones (by rolling logs at their feet) didn't happen until Return of the Jedi.
(1) Later retconned to "Episode IV: A New Hope". Sigh.
Ultimately, though, the real problem with walking combat robots in the style of BattleMechs or Gundams (or even AT-ATs, whatever) is that they will be way too visible on the battlefield. Numerous tank designs have failed over the last century because they were too tall to hide easily in mixed countryside, and therefore they attracted high explosives.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Numerous tank designs have failed over the last century because they were too tall to hide easily in mixed countryside, and therefore they attracted high explosives.
Or even heavy metal moving at high velocity.
Also, it’s not just about hiding: because it’s harder to get elevation (up and down aim) right than traverse (side-to-side aim), a tall target is easier to hit than a low target, since a shot that would pass over a low target may still hit a tall target under the same circumstances. This isn’t much of an issue with lasers and similar beam weapons that these fictional robots are often armed with, but even with those, a bigger target is easier to get into your sights than a smaller one.
So I suppose what you really want in a walking combat robot, is to have it resemble a crocodile more than a human.
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@gurth said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
So I suppose what you really want in a walking combat robot, is to have it resemble a crocodile more than a human.
Soon in theaters: Prone Robot Wars
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Walking mechs could be justified in a story by constructing the fictional world correctly.
For example by having only limited computers, incapable of complex control tasks, and wiring a human's nervous system to control the mech gives the fastest responses - but for that to work the mech must be close to a human body.
Also make the alternatives like aircraft or long range weapons impossible. A couple of guys with portable missile launchers would win against a Pacific Rim mech.
Hollywood has largely ignored one of the most likely uses for human-powered robots: healthcare. Researchers have used exoskeletons to help people with spinal cord injuries walk again.
Robocop?
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@steve_the_cynic said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Ultimately, though, the real problem with walking combat robots in the style of BattleMechs or Gundams (or even AT-ATs, whatever) is that they will be way too visible on the battlefield.
And the joints on the limbs will be both weak points and very difficult to armour adequately.
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@gurth said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
So I suppose what you really want in a walking combat robot, is to have it resemble a crocodile more than a human.
Probably flatness of the terrain is a factor. Like how very few wheeled vehicles can traverse stairs, a robot with 30cm legs is more easily stopped by steps and fences than a robot with 2m legs.
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@adynathos said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
A couple of guys with portable missile launchers would win against a Pacific Rim mech.
I don't know if that's a conflict you win.
Maybe the mech can run around stomping and get lucky, but the launchers would have to have a hell of a payload.
Besides, the question is how to kill giant monsters.
The explanation for using the mechs was to avoid nuclear fallout destroying the livability of the land. A few miles of destroyed buildings is easier to handle than the entire city being nuclear ash.
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Maybe the mech can run around stomping and get lucky, but the launchers would have to have a hell of a payload.
We've had man portable anti-tank weapons for a long time.
Why would a mech be any harder to kill than a tank?
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
The explanation for using the mechs was to avoid nuclear fallout destroying the livability of the land. A few miles of destroyed buildings is easier to handle than the entire city being nuc
Conventional high explosives would do a lot more damage than a robot punch. The explanation is nauseatingly stupid.
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@boomzilla said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Why would a mech be any harder to kill than a tank?
You'd need about a hundred of them. A tank would be squashed by a PR mech.
That said, a PR mech is already physically impossible with the materials we currently know about on Earth.
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@boomzilla said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
The explanation for using the mechs was to avoid nuclear fallout destroying the livability of the land. A few miles of destroyed buildings is easier to handle than the entire city being nuc
Conventional high explosives would do a lot more damage than a robot punch. The explanation is nauseatingly stupid.
Especially if you target.... jugular.
They also don't lose power from EMP pulse if they're fired from a distance.
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@boomzilla said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Why would a mech be any harder to kill than a tank?
You'd need about a hundred of them. A tank would be squashed by a PR mech.
A hundred of what? I'm talking about a guy with a rocket. Or maybe a few with a missile.
If you take out a leg or something the mech isn't going to be squashing anything except what couldn't get out of the way of it when it falls over.
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@boomzilla said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
If you take out a leg or something
The leg is the size of a building, and it's armored to handle combat, so much thicker armor than a tank. It won't be as easy as taking out a building the same size, or a tank which would be much smaller.
It would have to be a hell of a bomb, or a lot of small ones.
Then again, we can't build a mech like that, physics are impossible, so maybe a real version would have a less dense material. Similar problem for kaijus. Which means it would make even more sense to use conventional weapons.
Either way. A mech like that, despite it's lack of usefulness, would be more advanced that our stick robot that opens doors.
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This whole thing is retarded. Pacific Rim is an obvious example of someone thinking: "I want to make a movie where gigantic robots punch super aliens" and then wrote a story to fit that. That leads to shitty movies. I couldn't even finish it when I tried to watch it.
My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Pacific Rim taxed it way too much. When movies start with a compelling story and shoehorn science to fit their story I am less inclined to have problems accepting it. Pacific Rim was about twenty steps over the line.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
There were no walkers in Star Wars(1).
That's not what he said. He said it's been obvious since the first Star Wars movie, which is 100% true.
#readingcomprehension
@steve_the_cynic said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Ultimately, though, the real problem with walking combat robots in the style of BattleMechs or Gundams (or even AT-ATs, whatever) is that they will be way too visible on the battlefield.
The ground pressure thing is a bigger issue. Walking robots would be practically immobile on surfaces that traditional tracked vehicles would fly over at 60 MPH. A tank that can't move through a farm field isn't a very useful tank.
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@polygeekery said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Pacific Rim taxed it way too much
Honestly, I couldn't care if there was a story.
You give me giant robot and giant monster and say fight, I don't need a reason or a story. Mostly because the more reasons you give, the more obvious it is that the concept makes no sense.
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Oh, something else, but I'm sure a conventional solution is also good.
The Kaiju blood is caustic, and the weapons on the mechs are designed to cauterize at the same time as do damage.
Of course, nothing saying you can't mount plasma casters on a wall.
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@polygeekery said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Pacific Rim taxed it way too much
Honestly, I couldn't care if there was a story.
You give me giant robot and giant monster and say fight, I don't need a reason or a story. Mostly because the more reasons you give, the more obvious it is that the concept makes no sense.
You must be one of the 10 people actually looking forward to the Rampage movie.
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@polygeekery said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Pacific Rim taxed it way too much. When movies start with a compelling story and shoehorn science to fit their story I am less inclined to have problems accepting it. Pacific Rim was about twenty steps over the line.
Agreed. I can get the argument from one of my colleagues that Pacific Rim had a ton of pretty eye-candy (it probably did), but that didn't stop the movie from being pants-on-head retarded (to the point that this is all that I remember from it). I like eye-candy too, and I managed to get through it on netflix at some point, but I can't really see how anybody could have read the script without the associated eye-candy and thought that it would make a movie worth investing in.
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Oh, something else, but I'm sure a conventional solution is also good.
The Kaiju blood is caustic, and the weapons on the mechs are designed to cauterize at the same time as do damage.
Of course, nothing saying you can't mount plasma casters on a wall.
Whatever.
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@dragnslcr said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
You must be one of the 10 people actually looking forward to the Rampage movie.
Didn't that already come and bomb?
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@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@steve_the_cynic said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
There were no walkers in Star Wars(1).
That's not what he said. He said it's been obvious since the first Star Wars movie, which is 100% true.
#readingcomprehension
He was talking about the problem with giant walking robots, and pinned the obviousness on the first Star Wars movie, which contained (counts) no giant walking robots at all. Clearly the total lack of GWRs in that film explains why tripping them up with cables is a major weakness. (ESB, on the other hand, contains exactly that incident, and serves as an adequate lesson.)
The ground pressure thing is a bigger issue. Walking robots would be practically immobile on surfaces that traditional tracked vehicles would fly over at 60 MPH. A tank that can't move through a farm field isn't a very useful tank.
Yes, ground pressure is a problem. To reduce ground pressure, your giant walking robot needs big feet and a spindly build, and even then, an "upright" posture makes it an obvious target from very far away. A wheeled or tracked tank that goes "hull down" to reduce its visual signature can still move immediately, while a walker that lies on the ground to be "hull down" is essentially immobile until it stands up again.
The essential lesson, no matter how you slice it, is that giant walking robots are not going to work as combat vehicles, like, ever.
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@steve_the_cynic said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
The essential lesson, no matter how you slice it, is that giant walking robots are not going to work as combat vehicles, like, ever.
I don't think we're doing that.
Last I checked they're intended to haul over difficult terrain for small personnel.
If we got hovering working, it would obsolete legs completely though.
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Last I checked they're intended to haul over difficult terrain for small personnel.
You could in theory use them to haul around over-the-horizon artillery. Then the tallness wouldn't be as much a problem, although the other problems still apply.
Very hard to imagine how it could be better at this role than a traditional artillery tractor or self-propelled gun, however.
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@boomzilla said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Oh, something else, but I'm sure a conventional solution is also good.
The Kaiju blood is caustic, and the weapons on the mechs are designed to cauterize at the same time as do damage.
Of course, nothing saying you can't mount plasma casters on a wall.
Whatever.
And you can carry one of those on your shoulder?
I'm sorry, I started this argument assuming personal shoulder mounted. Planes change everything.
But then again, you don't even need that. Just use long range conventional.
Yes, I made a stupid argument for a point that would never be exercised, but my mind got stuck in that context.
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@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Then the tallness wouldn't be as much a problem
I'm talking something shorter than a human for a team of 5 or so.
@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Very hard to imagine how it could be better at this role than a traditional artillery tractor
At small size over staggered terrain, it would.
If we're talking something the size of a small tank, then no.
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I liked Pacific Rim, but the whole giant robots premise was flimsy anyway. "Oh, conventional weapons aren't powerful enough; that's why we need Jagers!" Um, what? Why are the giant super-robot weapons more powerful, and even if they are, why not just put those weapons on more conventional attack vessels instead of engineering totally new weapons platforms to carry and deliver them? About the only thing that a Jager could do that a tank or plane couldn't do is actually delivering a literal punch, and is blunt force trauma really more effective than the punch from a conventional explosive against these lizard alien creatures?
They're entertaining movies, but let's not try to over-analyze a plot point that didn't really make sense in the real world to begin with...
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
I'm sorry, I started this argument assuming personal shoulder mounted.
I dunno, you started talking about walls and cauterizing so I figured we'd moved on.
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@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Didn't that already come
Yes. Released to theaters on April 13th.
@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
and bomb?
Nope. Estimated $120 million budget, earned $413 million at the box office.
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@chaostheeternal said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
earned $413 million at the box office.
How.
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The real problem is that they weren't Catapults.
Without chicken legs and missile-ears why even bother.
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@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@chaostheeternal said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
earned $413 million at the box office.
How.
There are enough people like me. Just want the eye candy.
Same reason Transformers is still going.
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@xaade Yah well I'm a huge fan of kaiju and I think both their monsters and mechs were stupid and dumb looking. Kaiju are supposed to be scary, not silly. And when your mechs look dumber than the ones in Robot Jox, you got problems.
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@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
@xaade Yah well I'm a huge fan of kaiju and I think both their monsters and mechs were stupid and dumb looking. Kaiju are supposed to be scary, not silly. And when your mechs look dumber than the ones in Robot Jox, you got problems.
I want to understand.
How would you improve it / examples of good looking mech and kaiju?
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Wait, are we talking about 1 or 2?
I think 2 made everything look worse.
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
I want to understand.
The classical rules for scary monsters is that they have lots of 45 degree angles.
@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
How would you improve it / examples of good looking mech and kaiju?
Well I think building a mech to look like a human is really stupid-tarded, for one thing. Mechs like the Catapult above look like they were built for some specific purpose not just because "it's like a dude ONLY BIGGER!" Building a mech that looks like a human is like building a car that looks like a horse.
Thus the Mighty Morphing Power Ranger mechs are cool when they're tigers or dinosaurs or whatever, BUT AS SOON AS THEY FORM THE HUMAN COMBINED MECH they become lame. The Battletech fighters which have that mode where they're fighters on legs are cool, but when they turn into a human mech they become lame.
As for kaiju:
Godzilla: cool
Anguirus: pretty cool
King Kong: not very cool
Rodan: cool
Mothra: not scary but cool (note that Mothra is not a villian in the Godzilla canon)
King Ghidorah: not very cool (multiple heads are stupid)
Ebirah: pretty cool
Minilla: not cool (but note that he starred in a film that was basically an anti-bullying PSA for 8-year-olds)
Kamacuras: cool
Kumonga: pretty cool
Baragon: not very cool
Gorosaurua: pretty cool
Manda: cool underwater, lame on land
Varan: meh
Gabara: not very cool (but note that he was in the same film as Minilla and existed as the monster version of the bully who was attacking the kid)
Hedorah: wins on weirdness points
Gigan: would be cooler without the dumb hands (note: he's a robot not biological)
Jet Jaguar: extremely lame but with a good theme songetc. The infographic keeps going.
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@adynathos said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Hollywood has largely ignored one of the most likely uses for human-powered robots: healthcare. Researchers have used exoskeletons to help people with spinal cord injuries walk again.
Robocop?
Japan didn't forget this. Robotics;Notes had a fairly horrific scene involving exoskeletons.
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Obligatory:
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@dkf said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
And the joints on the limbs will be both weak points and very difficult to armour adequately.
To put this into perspective: tank turrets can get jammed even by machine gun and rifle bullets, if they happen to hit and get lodged right in the join between hull and turret. Luckily a turret is easy to protect against this by means of a splash guard; it would be a bit more difficult to add something similar to limb joints.
@pleegwat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Probably flatness of the terrain is a factor. Like how very few wheeled vehicles can traverse stairs, a robot with 30cm legs is more easily stopped by steps and fences than a robot with 2m legs.
If your MBT replacement robot is stopped by something as simple as a fence, it may be better to stick to tracked vehicles.
Wait, let me rephrase that: it is better to stick to tracked vehicles.
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@blakeyrat said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
How.
Maybe it had a good run in China and elsewhere in East Asia? Those markets are pretty large if you make the sort of film they (and their censors) like.
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@adynathos said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Also make the alternatives like aircraft or long range weapons impossible. A couple of guys with portable missile launchers would win against a Pacific Rim mech.
Hollywood has largely ignored one of the most likely uses for human-powered robots: healthcare. Researchers have used exoskeletons to help people with spinal cord injuries walk again.
Robocop?
As someone with an actual SCI, that spent time hobbling around in an exo skeleton during rehab I can say that it's not really walking. It's nice to get back upright, but the exo tech that existed a couple of years ago was far from good enough to actually do walking.
I actually started thinking about doing soft robotics "pants" instead of an exo skeleton, for tech aided walking for paraplegics. I mean, we already have a skeleton, no need to add an external one. And with soft robotics, you'd probably get a bit of the lacking muscular pumping of body fluids as well.
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@xaade said in Pacific Rim robots are less advanced because they aren't designed the way we design robots.:
Besides, the question is how to kill giant monsters.
The explanation for using the mechs was to avoid nuclear fallout destroying the livability of the land. A few miles of destroyed buildings is easier to handle than the entire city being nuclear ash.Exactly. Instead of using nuclear weapons (like they did in for the first Kaiju they encountered), they built movable nuclear powered battering rams.
Man-portable anti-tank systems - Wikipedia
