Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery
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@powerlord said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
For instance, C# (which Xamarin uses) does literally everything on this list save the nullability/non-nullability thing (at least on non-value types).
@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
C# doesn't have [...] compiler checked and guaranteed nullability
Coming in 8.
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@dreikin said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@powerlord said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
For instance, C# (which Xamarin uses) does literally everything on this list save the nullability/non-nullability thing (at least on non-value types).
@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
C# doesn't have [...] compiler checked and guaranteed nullability
Coming in 8.
Until it's an error and not an opt-in warning, I don't find it all that interesting.
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Real men use direct pixel level calls for their UI design, none of these highfaluting frameworks or APIs....
I assume there's an npm library for that.
I just assumed it would exist with that spelling, and it did.
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@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dkf for me, "new get" and "nougat" are pronounced identically except when I'm being ultra precise and pause between words.
Nugget has a different first vowel sound (uh instead of you)
For the first part, I tend to agree. But not for the second syllable.
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@dreikin said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Real men use direct pixel level calls for their UI design, none of these highfaluting frameworks or APIs....
I assume there's an npm library for that.
I just assumed it would exist with that spelling, and it did.
Holy shit .
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@laoc said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
He is one of the leaders in design of high quality User Experiences. While he does use many technologies, XAML [WPF] is primary.
Here is a link to an MSDN blog (since apparently a web search is too difficult for you) https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/brada/2008/07/07/great-user-experience-example-in-a-business-application/
Seems like their web server hasn't benefited much from his work:
That could have been considered an excusable mistake leading to a less-than-optimal user experience in 1998. In 2018 it's a pure
The screenshots on the left look like crap from a 90s movie trying to depict a real UI.
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@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dkf for me, "new get" and "nougat" are pronounced identically except when I'm being ultra precise and pause between words.
Nugget has a different first vowel sound (uh instead of you)
For the first part, I tend to agree. But not for the second syllable.
Both of those are the shwa (ə) vowel for me.
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@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dkf for me, "new get" and "nougat" are pronounced identically except when I'm being ultra precise and pause between words.
Nugget has a different first vowel sound (uh instead of you)
For the first part, I tend to agree. But not for the second syllable.
Both of those are the shwa (ə) vowel for me.
I was never taught how to pronounce "nougat". So I would pronounce it "no-ew gat".
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@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dkf for me, "new get" and "nougat" are pronounced identically except when I'm being ultra precise and pause between words.
Nugget has a different first vowel sound (uh instead of you)
For the first part, I tend to agree. But not for the second syllable.
Both of those are the shwa (ə) vowel for me.
I was never taught how to pronounce "nougat". So I would pronounce it "no-ew gat".
The "accepted" pronunciation is ˈno͞oɡət (NOO geht) (at least according to the all-knowing (and all malicious (and aren't nested parentheses fun (no, not unless we're speaking with a LISP (which we aren't (so stop that already))))) did I close the right number?)))))))))))))) just to be sure) Google.
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@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dkf for me, "new get" and "nougat" are pronounced identically except when I'm being ultra precise and pause between words.
Nugget has a different first vowel sound (uh instead of you)
For the first part, I tend to agree. But not for the second syllable.
Both of those are the shwa (ə) vowel for me.
I was never taught how to pronounce "nougat". So I would pronounce it "no-ew gat".
The "accepted" pronunciation is ˈno͞oɡət (NOO geht) (at least according to the all-knowing (and all malicious (and aren't nested parentheses fun (no, not unless we're speaking with a LISP (which we aren't (so stop that already))))) did I close the right number?)))))))))))))) just to be sure) Google.
What can I say, my SAPI libraries are home-grown...
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@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dkf for me, "new get" and "nougat" are pronounced identically except when I'm being ultra precise and pause between words.
Nugget has a different first vowel sound (uh instead of you)
For the first part, I tend to agree. But not for the second syllable.
Both of those are the shwa (ə) vowel for me.
I was never taught how to pronounce "nougat". So I would pronounce it "no-ew gat".
The "accepted" pronunciation is ˈno͞oɡət (NOO geht) (at least according to the all-knowing (and all malicious (and aren't nested parentheses fun (no, not unless we're speaking with a LISP (which we aren't (so stop that already))))) did I close the right number?)))))))))))))) just to be sure) Google.
What can I say, my SAPI libraries are home-grown...
Yeah, I tend to run into words that I've only seen written, never heard. I usually have pronunciations for them. Perils of having a large vocabulary I guess.
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@thecpuwizard And of course don't forget the Austin Metro
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@masonwheeler said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Right; and don't confuse any of those with Narnia, which is a strange fantasy land accessible through closets where Lorne
learned all of his computer science knowledge.disposes of bodies.FTFY
To be fair, the bodies I dispose of have long since come out of the closet.
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@lorne-kates Because you only put them in the closet until you can bury them in the back yard.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@masonwheeler said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Right; and don't confuse any of those with Narnia, which is a strange fantasy land accessible through closets where Lorne
learned all of his computer science knowledge.disposes of bodies.FTFY
To be fair, the bodies I dispose of have long since come out of the closet.
But do you finalize them after disposing, or do you suppress that?????
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@benjamin-hall said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates Because you only put them in the closet until you can bury them in the back yard.
Much better to use sodium hydroxide and then simply flush them down the toilet.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
To be fair, the bodies I dispose of have long since come out of the closet.
Does anyone think that a transgender hooker is in the closet these days?
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@dreikin said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
The screenshots on the left look like crap from a 90s movie trying to depict a real UI.
Yeah, looking closely it they make you wonder about the wisdom behind it. Some buttons are colored the OS default black-text-on-gray, some are white-on-black, and the distinction is not based on whether it's a "special" button like Save/Close; those look the same as regular buttons even at a time when MS had already started to put little standard icons on them.
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Much better to use sodium hydroxide and then simply flush them down the toilet.
He could try storing them (postumhously but preferably pre-humusly) in Post-gres. It does ACID.
Although … doing ACID in the presence of a corpse may not be a good idea.
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@dkf said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
To be fair, the bodies I dispose of have long since come out of the closet.
Does anyone think that a transgender hooker is in the closet these days?
Tobe fair, you can be trans and hetro, but start to have same-sex feelings that you haven't expressed yet.
(Don't ask, I just learn these things. Look, hookers tend to be chatty before they notice all the plastic sheeting everywhere wasn't for the bukkake party)
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@lorne-kates I was merely noting that if people are starting to think that there's a transgender hooker in the closet, you need to find somewhere quiet out in the woods to keep 'em instead.
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@laoc said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Much better to use sodium hydroxide and then simply flush them down the toilet.
He could try storing them (postumhously but preferably pre-humusly) in Post-gres. It does ACID.
Although … doing ACID in the presence of a corpse may not be a good idea.
With acid you still have the problem of what to do with the bones ;)
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I have a beautiful example of shit that XAML throws at you all the time. Real life example, happened half an hour ago.
Some time ago I made myself a simple tool to help me with testing one of our projects. Never mind what the tool does, it's super simple. I made it in WinForms - UI, events, and such things took me 30 minutes.
Now I have to make some modifications to it, so I though why not rewrite it in WPF.Here's problem #250 , which I'm facing right now:
Program main window is a two column grid, mostly labels on left, some other controls on right, textboxes, buttons, etc. Widths and heights are all defined in stars, no absolute values. Inside the grid, among others, there is this control:<TextBox TextWrapping="Wrap" AcceptsReturn="True" Grid.Column="1" Grid.Row="0" Margin="15" />
Surely something that simple cannot cause problems, right? Wrong. Everything is fine as long as text in the box is smaller than the content area. But the moment you enter or paste more text, the texbox stretches vertically, which in turn stretches it's grid row, which in turn rescales everything else. Delete some text and everything shrinks back.
Fighting with this one stupid problem already took me more than all UI work for WinForms version - and I still haven't solved it.
Any ideas would be appreciated. I'm sure it's very easy to solve, like everything in XAML.
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@mrl Doesn't it have a
MaxHeight
attribute or something?
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@mrl AutoGrow false?
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl Doesn't it have a
MaxHeight
attribute or something?MaxHeight is an absolute value, which defeats the purpose of star scaling everything.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl AutoGrow false?
No such property.
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@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Any ideas would be appreciated. I'm sure it's very easy to solve
Yes, go back to WinForms
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@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl Doesn't it have a
MaxHeight
attribute or something?MaxHeight is an absolute value, which defeats the purpose of star scaling everything.
Then bind the MaxHeight to something that scales correctly. E.g.
Maxheight="{Binding ElementName=foo, Path=ActualHeight}"
And I'm not quite sure what you expect - if you scale everything relatively then of course you'll get problems with auto growing elements.
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl Doesn't it have a
MaxHeight
attribute or something?MaxHeight is an absolute value, which defeats the purpose of star scaling everything.
Then bind the MaxHeight to something that scales correctly. E.g.
Maxheight="{Binding ElementName=foo, Path=ActualHeight}"
Mhm, mhm, and the correctly scaling something is what exactly?
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@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl Doesn't it have a
MaxHeight
attribute or something?MaxHeight is an absolute value, which defeats the purpose of star scaling everything.
Then bind the MaxHeight to something that scales correctly. E.g.
Maxheight="{Binding ElementName=foo, Path=ActualHeight}"
Mhm, mhm, and the correctly scaling something is what exactly?
How the hell should I know? You're the one who's trying to push a square peg through a round hole :)
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl Doesn't it have a
MaxHeight
attribute or something?MaxHeight is an absolute value, which defeats the purpose of star scaling everything.
Then bind the MaxHeight to something that scales correctly. E.g.
Maxheight="{Binding ElementName=foo, Path=ActualHeight}"
Mhm, mhm, and the correctly scaling something is what exactly?
How the hell should I know? You're the one who's trying to push a square peg through a round hole :)
Ok, so you don't know.
Maybe someone else will have a solution.
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
And I'm not quite sure what you expect - if you scale everything relatively then of course you'll get problems with auto growing elements.
I don't scale text boxes at all, I scale grid rows. And this scaling is not maintained when multiline textbox expands 40 pixels in height (it doesn't expand more than 40-50px ever, because).
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@mrl
Auto
instead of stars on some of these things?
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@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
And I'm not quite sure what you expect - if you scale everything relatively then of course you'll get problems with auto growing elements.
I don't scale text boxes at all, I scale grid rows. And this scaling is not maintained when multiline textbox expands 40 pixels in height (it doesn't expand more than 40-50px ever, because).
Have you tried making it 3px wider?
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Gee... I'm late to the party. So...
I think I've already mentoned it somewhere: I can't recommend Xamarin in its current state because in my experience in the past 1.5 years it broke every other release. Badly.
I've never used Xamarin.Forms, I went straight to the native UI frameworks. If the quality is the same as their tools, good luck.
At least, the native UI frameworks are being used and tested extensively so as long as they don't mess up with the bindings you're good. And yes, they did mess up with the bindings in one instance. They used the wrong method signature, forcing me to cast to a different enum.Fuck WPF, XAML, attached properties, dependency properties, bindings, INotifyPropertyChanged and MVVM. Ok, maybe not MVVM. Maybe.
Holy cow, it's all coming back now. What a major PITA.
That toolset is supposed to make your life easier but, as others seems to have experienced, it's making easy 20% of the things and difficult everything else.
Threre are a few positive aspects about WPF, but that's about it. It looked much better than HTML at the time, because you couldn't vertically align stuff without messy CSS hacks. Nowadays... flexbox FTW. No wonder x-platform devs use Electron and JS.Back to the native frameworks... UIKit (iOS) also sucks with its constraints-based layout. As soon as you have to make alternative layouts for different screen sizes/orientations you're screwed. To be fair, Xamarin's designer is worse than Apple's one. It's also buggy, as expected.
The Android UI framework, surprisingly, is something I like. Layout is easy and powerful. Themes/Styles are confusing to me, but other than that... it's good. Too bad everything else, particularly the app model and activity lifecycle, IMHO, suck hard.For desktop development, I don't do anything serious these days, just development tools. Like @blakeyrat I go WinForms. IT WORKS. It's quick and easy. Limited, but gets the job done.
Also, Mono's WinForms support is very poor but it's kind of okay for dev tools. It lets you run them on other OSs for free.
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@twelvebaud said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl
Auto
instead of stars on some of these things?Yes! That's it!
There are 5 rows in the grid. Textbox stops expanding/shrinking when 3 of them have Auto. Exactly 3, any other number doesn't work, obviously.
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@zmaster said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
To be fair, Xamarin's designer is worse than Apple's one.
No. Nothing is wore than XCode.
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@masonwheeler said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Nothing is wore than XCode.
I disagree. Having "nothing" is better than having to deal with xCode ! :)
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@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
WinForms
You're a goober. Stop being a dinosaur GRANDPA!
@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
events
Please, events are so IN THE PAST! Use COMMANDS, or you can just shove a broken lightbulb in your neck. A broken CFL BULB, because only OLD PEOPLE use CFL BULBS! (LED 4 evar)
Fucking loser. I bet you didn't even build a Model View VIewModel ModelView ViewModelView View Model framework for your form. I hope you get ZikaAIDS.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
I bet you didn't even build a Model View VIewModel ModelView ViewModelView View Model framework for your form.
I DIDN'T. I CONFESS. I CONFESS!!
I Confess! – 00:49
— Smelliemoore
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@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Exactly 3, any other number doesn't work, obviously.
Monty Python-Holy Hand Grenade – [01:28..02:19] 02:19
— HopelessRomantic27
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So, let's say I want to say "fuck it" to iphones, and nevermind with Windows Phones, and want to target only Android.
And I want to stay with Visual Studio.
Is Xamamamamarin my only choice at this point?
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@lorne-kates Why would you want to stick with Visual Studio? IntelliJ IDEA is great and so is Kotlin.
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
IntelliJ IDEA is great
[rant]
The world is divided into two groups of people (who matter at all). People who are wrong who like JetBrains's IDEs, and people who are correct like me who don't like them at all. All the little ways they work (especially in the parts that are the same across the various systems, whether it is IntelliJ or PyCharm or RubyMine or …) just drive me round the twist for being wrong. If I'm using one (e.g., as in yesterday when I was helping one of my local users recover from a minor git problem) then I'm internally being very unhappy the whole time.[/rant]
I've never used Visual Studio, so I have no idea if I'd like it or hate it. Windows has simply never really been a significant platform for me professionally.
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@dkf said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Windows
And I'm sure that JetBrains IDEs drive some people round the bend. When you have a big complicated piece of software where everything is streamlined to work under the same mindset group, the people with minds that don't work that way have a very hard time with it. I'm friends with another one of those. But most people don't have a problem with it, and on the whole it's a powerful, well put together tool.
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@dkf said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
People who are wrong who like JetBrains's IDEs, and people who are correct like me who don't like them at all.
I'm curious. What's your beef with them?
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates Why would you want to stick with Visual Studio? IntelliJ IDEA is great and so is Kotlin.
Requirement: must use software X
Response: you should use software Y
Spoken like a true DiscoDev
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates Why would you want to stick with Visual Studio? IntelliJ IDEA is great and so is Kotlin.
And it's because I want to use visual studio. It's what I know. I'm familiar with the ui and ux. I know the quirks. It's what I use at work. I don't want to learn a whole new ide. I don't want to have to deal with two sets of muscle memory.
Also, VS is the only good ide. Every other one sucks. Yes, including that one you're thinking of.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
And it's because I want to use visual studio. It's what I know. I'm familiar with the ui and ux. I know the quirks. It's what I use at work. I don't want to learn a whole new ide. I don't want to have to deal with two sets of muscle memory.
Also, VS is the only good ide. Every other one sucks. Yes, including that one you're thinking of.
Well, given these requirements and assuming you want to do everything withing VS (as opposed to only using it as the editor for instance) it looks like Xamarin and Cordova are the only options. At least that's what visualstudio.com says.
If you only care about Android and you've only played with Xamarin.Forms, I'd give the native Android UI framework a go.