Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery
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@lorne-kates Yeah, basically, none of that.
XAML is heavily used by Microsoft. They use it in the .NET framework for WPF and in Silverlight, and in the Universal Windows Platform. Another thing that's in .NET is ASP.NET, which is for making nice websites.
Xamarin was a company that used Mono, an opensource re-implementation of .NET, for mobile development. They used their own version of XAML in order to make it somewhat familiar to the people who'd been using XAML for so many years.
Microsoft eventually bought Xamarin, and is slowly bringing it into line with their other stuff, but it's still only partially implemented and bad, with random differences.
At some point in the near future, XAML Standard is supposed to become part of .NET Standard, which should simplify some of this, and allow more cross-platform uniformity.
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@lorne-kates Dood. Microsoft made XAML for Silverlight, then later used it as the basis for Window Store Apps or whatever we're calling those this week when Windows 8 came out.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@kt_ said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
This looks and works exactly like fucking WPF and UWP (with a few caveats)
THIS LOOKS AND WORKS EXACTLY LIKE THESE TWO OTHER THINGS EXCEPT FOR ALL THE DIFFERENCES!
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@masonwheeler said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
XAML is horrible
Do you mean XAML or XAML? They're two exactly the same different things.
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Things I like and don't like
I like WPF and XAML even though they are not perfect. Way better developer experience than wanting to do the same thing for web, because it then becomes "OMG you should use Knockout, nope AngularJS, nope Angular, nope React, no Vue" and it changes twice every year. Whereas XAML has been XAML for more than 10 years now.I don't like Lorne Kates being confused but I find it rather funny that when he's told he's confused he tells everyone to fuck off. The Patreon link is broken but I wouldn't give him money anyway.
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Oh silly @Lorne-Kates , the first rule of XAML is;
Never attempt to bend XAML to your will. Be the
in the 
.Wait that's not right... but is close enough for XAML.
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@masonwheeler said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@laoc said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Miguel de Icaza is a dangerous lunatic, that much was clear in his Ximian days already.
de Icaza is the founder of both Xamarin and Ximian. Ximian was always about combining the disadvantages of Windows and Linux and evolving Gnome into the turd it is today. So I didn't really follow what Xamarin's business was in the first place but @Lorne-Kates's description matches pretty well with the shit I'd expect from these people.
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@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
He is one of the leaders in design of high quality User Experiences. While he does use many technologies, XAML [WPF] is primary.
Here is a link to an MSDN blog (since apparently a web search is too difficult for you) https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/brada/2008/07/07/great-user-experience-example-in-a-business-application/
Seems like their web server hasn't benefited much from his work:
That could have been considered an excusable mistake leading to a less-than-optimal user experience in 1998. In 2018 it's a pure
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@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Real men use direct pixel level calls for their UI design, none of these highfaluting frameworks or APIs....
And die of old age waiting for it to render on Windows 10.
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@laoc said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Seems like their web server hasn't benefited much from his work:
That could have been considered an excusable mistake leading to a less-than-optimal user experience in 1998. In 2018 it's a pure
a) That is a Microsoft Blog Site for the interview, not directly associated with Billy (other than him being interviewed for that post).
b) Brad (the author of the post) left Microsoft in 2010So, I do agree that the MSDN site is "a pure
", but that is independent of my point.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates Dood. Microsoft made XAML for Silverlight, then later used it as the basis for Window Store Apps or whatever we're calling those this week when Windows 8 came out.
Wasn't it something like "WinRT XAML" when Windows 8 came out?
Oh well, it's UWP these days.
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@mathnerdcnu said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Never attempt to bend XAML to your will.
That's easy though. My current company does this to a greater extent than should be possible, by doing serverside runtime XAML generation, which then gets sent to the client to be rendered. I think this is completely insane and should never be done, but it works. Somehow.
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@powerlord It's still the Windows Runtime as opposed to the .NET framework or Win32. It just didn't have a nice businessy name, so they felt they had to staple one on. But calling it WinRT XAML is totally accurate, even now.
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
serverside runtime XAML generation
Oh and this is by interpreting a 30yo programming language that was designed to print forms and design DOS UIs.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates Dood. Microsoft made XAML for Silverlight, then later used it as the basis for Window Store Apps or whatever we're calling those this week when Windows 8 came out.
Metro?
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Metro?
Was the name of the styling. Before they got told not to use it. But it had nothing to do with anything other than what it looked like to the end-user.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Metro?
That was the first and best name. Every name since then has been both awful and forgettable.
Also the idea that someone could confuse the trademark of a transit system with a Windows application is ludicrous and Microsoft should have taken it in front of a judge.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Metro?
That was the first and best name. Every name since then has been both awful and forgettable.
Also the idea that someone could confuse the trademark of a transit system with a Windows application is ludicrous and Microsoft should have taken it in front of a judge.
As I understand it, trademarks apply to your industry. I'm surprised a tech product would be considered in the same space as public transit.
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@mikehurley The transit company threatened, so Microsoft threw their hands up and walked away. Probably figured it wasn't worth the cost of fixing it. They were wrong, probably. But it's understandable why they'd do what they did.
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@mikehurley said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
As I understand it, trademarks apply to your industry. I'm surprised a tech product would be considered in the same space as public transit.
There's no way in shit the transit company would have won the lawsuit, but Microsoft didn't even bother to sue. They just gave up and changed the name to the first of many stupid forgettable names.
Also, Microsoft had been using the name "Metro" since the Zune, for some reason they never cared about it before.
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mikehurley The transit company threatened, so Microsoft threw their hands up and walked away. Probably figured it wasn't worth the cost of fixing it. They were wrong, probably. But it's understandable why they'd do what they did.
The transit company must have been using Metro and their people were too confused when talking - "which Metro are you talking about?"
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@dcon said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
The transit company must have been using Metro and their people were too confused when talking - "which Metro are you talking about?"
Well, I know of a transit authority and a newspaper(-ish free rag) round here that both call themselves Metro, so I don't think adding a software system to that pile would have been too confusing.
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@dkf said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
I know of a transit authority and a newspaper(-ish free rag) round here that both call themselves Metro
In Quebec (and Ontario), it's also a major chain of food distribution
Your local grocery | Metro
Discover the pleasure of online shopping with your local grocer Metro! Explore our flyer, take advantage of coupons and discover our recipes.
The subway is also called metro
Métro
Information en provenance de la STM. Une entreprise publique qui assure les besoins de mobilité de la population montréalaise, en offrant un réseau de transport collectif (bus et métro) performant.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Every name since then has been both awful and forgettable.
Crayon poop.
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NOTE: See posts below...It was not this Metro grocer, but rather the one in Gemany. Sorry for any confusion.
@timebandit said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
In Quebec (and Ontario), it's also a major chain of food distribution
Your local grocery | Metro
Discover the pleasure of online shopping with your local grocer Metro! Explore our flyer, take advantage of coupons and discover our recipes.
And that organization was the problem. It never had anything to do with mass transit. Their justifications were borderline, but they appeared to be willing to mount a vigorous defense (and there was just enough that they could win).
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
lolnope, because the new dataset came from the not-UI thread, Xamarin throws an exception when that dataset tries to modify any UI.
Ah... yeah, I was dealing with this all day actually...
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@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@unperverted-vixen said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@mrl said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
And when it is NOT visible, it can either retain control of the space [so layout does not change as visibility is toggled] or it can release the space [so that things can be repositioned to make use of the space....
Two different things cobbled together.
I disagree. They’re two separate things in CSS, which is far from intuitive. Making them the same property makes it more obvious that Hidden keeps the space where Collapse/None releases it.
Additionally, two distinct items introduces a 4th conceptual condition, which would map to "Don't Reserve the Space", but "Do Show It"
Also known as Overlap?
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
I think my thread here is called 'Doing MVVM properly" or something...
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Seriously, if you assume that something in one UI framework will work the same as something in another one, you're just asking to be disappointed.
QFT.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
If your gripe is Razor vs. XAML, maybe you should actually call these technologies by their actual names instead of making up your own names which just confuses everything everywhere.
It's because Classic ASP.Net is harder to say than .NET I guess...
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates .NET is better than Xamarin's weird subset. But XAML is part of .NET as well. And you still don't understand that two things with similar names aren't the same thing.
You mean, like, JavaScript isn't merely Java but as a script?
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
There is compile-time checking elsewhere, especially with
{x:Bind}/me bookmarks this as "To be researched".
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
So basically you can shove the "lol u shuldn't bee confused" up your tiny brown jewelry box.
C++ and C# are wildly different? Whodathunkit?
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@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
There is compile-time checking elsewhere, especially with
{x:Bind}/me bookmarks this as "To be researched".
For Xamarin, start your research here: https://developer.xamarin.com/guides/xamarin-forms/xaml/xamlc/
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@thecpuwizard It wasn't that one, but a much bigger company
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@coldandtired said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@thecpuwizard It wasn't that one, but a much bigger company
You are 100% correct. I was not paying attention to location (I knew it was the German one, and also that it was the legal structures in Germany that were highly influential]
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@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
It's because Classic ASP.Net is harder to say than .NET I guess...
And Classic ASP.Net (which isn't a real term) is not to be confused with Classic ASP (also not a real term) which is actually VBScript.
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
That's easy though. My current company does this to a greater extent than should be possible, by doing serverside runtime XAML generation, which then gets sent to the client to be rendered. I think this is completely insane and should never be done, but it works. Somehow.
rendered in the client? is that WPF, UWP or Silverlight?
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@marczellm WPF. Though I think they had partially implemented a silverlight version.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
And Classic ASP.Net (which isn't a real term) is not to be confused with Classic ASP (also not a real term) which is actually VBScript.
Right; and don't confuse any of those with Narnia, which is a strange fantasy land accessible through closets where Lorne learned all of his computer science knowledge.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Classic ASP (also not a real term)
But Wikipedia says so!
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@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Classic ASP (also not a real term)
But Wikipedia says so!
ASP, yes.
"Classic" ASP (which is what people say when they refer to that and not ASP.Net), no.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Classic ASP (also not a real term)
But Wikipedia says so!
ASP, yes.
"Classic" ASP (which is what people say when they refer to that and not ASP.Net), no.
Should I put a [Citation needed] on that article then? Because clearly they're lying.
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@tsaukpaetra said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Should I put a [Citation needed] on that article then? Because clearly they're lying.
Yes, you should.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
NuGet
Isn't it pronounced like Nougat?
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@jazzyjosh said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
NuGet
Isn't it pronounced like Nougat?
I was just thinking the same thing. "New Get" (ie: get some new shit for yo shizzle)? Or is it "Nouget" as in "lol Android's stupid fucking naming convention"
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@jazzyjosh said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
NuGet
Isn't it pronounced like Nougat?
Doesn't it depend on how you pronounce Nougat?
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Right; and don't confuse any of those with Narnia, which is a strange fantasy land accessible through closets where Lorne
learned all of his computer science knowledge.disposes of bodies.FTFY
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@jazzyjosh said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Isn't it pronounced like Nougat?
I thought it was pronounced as “nugget”.
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@dkf for me, "new get" and "nougat" are pronounced identically except when I'm being ultra precise and pause between words.
Nugget has a different first vowel sound (uh instead of you)
Metro AG - Wikipedia
Active Server Pages - Wikipedia
