The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
You're comparing a commercial operating system (Windows) to a non commercial operating system (Debian). Apples and oranges. Good for you for using a distribution that updates less frequently, I guess. (I mean, I'd argue that it's not good for you, but I also recognize that other users' use cases are not my own.)
What amused me about that is that Ubuntu, which is based on Debian, has kernel updates nearly every other week. Almost all of them involve local privilege escalations of some sort or another in the kernel or one of its drivers (which, for the uninformed, are shipped with the kernel).
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@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
make a new installation ISO with the driver in it
how? unpack the ISO, copy driver files into some folder, repack in ISO format?
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
I already explained to you why you are wrong.
But hey, don't let facts stop you from spewing bullshit.Technically you could rotate programs instead of shutting down, but that wouldn't be all that hard for a virus on a live OS to spoof. Much harder to spoof restarting the machine.
And btw, you cannot "rotate" if the update is about bugs in kernel core (not those loadable modules) without rebooting.
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@marczellm said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
make a new installation ISO with the driver in it
how? unpack the ISO, copy driver files into some folder, repack in ISO format?
Yes. I use a program called NtLite
You can add/remove things and then it makes you a new ISO.
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@dcon said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
So, something bad happened in a beta.
Point is, "Get Office" was released to the public. It's purely an ad to get users to get Office. The user is required to take action to make it go away.
That's said, I heard from people who have Office 365 subscription, this is pure convenience for them.
Especially for less technical savvy people who works on laptop/tablets that have no DVD drive, but people who know how to install Office without DVD drive like it too because if you bind your Office subscription with your LiveID that you use to login Windows, installing Office is just one-click action.
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@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Yes. I use a program called NtLite
You can also use the Windows AIK, though I imagine NtLite is a significantly smaller installation/experience given the name. But with Windows AIK you can automate the installation (answering all prompts ahead of time) and slipstream all the latest updates into the ISO. Useful for machines that have to be rebuilt weekly/monthly or you're doing a whole lab at a time.
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@powerlord said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
What amused me about that is that Ubuntu, which is based on Debian, has kernel updates nearly every other week.
I thought that was the case, but I haven't used Ubuntu in a while and didn't want to look up any more than I already had... and that's a commercial distribution too.
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@powerlord said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
What amused me about that is that Ubuntu, which is based on Debian, has kernel updates nearly every other week.
I wonder what they're doing that requires tinkering that frequently with the kernel? 'Cos it sounds like many of their updates are just fixes to the temporary fixes in their previous update, and in that case they are the authors of their own misfortune…
Really shouldn't need to update the OS core very often, especially if drivers and filesystems can be replaced without rebooting.
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
so they add ads to the freaking Start menu!
No repro.
I haven't seen ads on the start menu, but I've seen ads for OneDrive in Windows Explorer. I've hit the little × to hide them, but it keeps coming back every once in a while.
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I just wanted to point out that @El_Heffe's problem was due to his BIOS defaulting to XHCI mode for USB, which unlike USB itself, is not at all backwards compatible with EHCI, making Windows lose its shit. Disabling XHCI/USB 3.0 in BIOS solves issue. When I ran into that issue for the first time, it took me three days of googling to discover that.
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@bb36e I've heard of those but not seen them myself. Maybe because I'm already using OneDrive (albeit the free version)? I have the option enabled that supposedly allows the ads...
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@powerlord said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
What amused me about that is that Ubuntu, which is based on Debian, has kernel updates nearly every other week. Almost all of them involve local privilege escalations of some sort or another in the kernel or one of its drivers (which, for the uninformed, are shipped with the kernel).
Ubuntu is based on Debian Testing, with some packages from Unstable, and custom patches they write.
No wonder they have to patch the kernel so often
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@Gąska said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
I just wanted to point out that @El_Heffe's problem was due to his BIOS defaulting to XHCI mode for USB, which unlike USB itself, is not at all backwards compatible with EHCI, making Windows lose its shit. Disabling XHCI/USB 3.0 in BIOS solves issue. When I ran into that issue for the first time, it took me three days of googling to discover that.
Yes. I came across that in my Googling. Unfortunately, on this particular computer, that option does not exist in the BIOS.
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@blakeyrat said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Windows can also swap-out drivers for most bits of hardware without rebooting as an added bonus
You still have no clue about Linux
https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/add-remove-list-linux-kernel-modules/
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
You still have no clue about Linux
YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT X!
(shows an article explaining X that I've known about for years)
Good jerb. So glad I started posting here again to interact with you morons.
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Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.
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@TimeBandit (A→B)≢(B→A)
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
You still have no clue about Linux
@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.
So you're saying you're in the wrong? Perhaps you didn't mean it as an insult but it came across that way to me.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.
@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Brainwashed Windows User spotted
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Ooh! Ohh! I think I know this one!
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@bb36e said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
so they add ads to the freaking Start menu!
No repro.
I haven't seen ads on the start menu, but I've seen ads for OneDrive in Windows Explorer. I've hit the little × to hide them, but it keeps coming back every once in a while.
Ads on the Start Menu: likely the app suggestions you can disable in Settings at Personalization/Start/Occasionally show suggestions in Start.
OneDrive Ads in Explorer: likely disabled in Folder Options (in File Explorer, go to View/Options/Change folder and search options) under View/Advanced settings:/Files and Folders/Show sync provider notifications.
There are times when I miss Windows XP and Windows 7 (pre-Get Windows 10). :(
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@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
A required CD/DVD drive device driver is missing.
This happens primarily when the installer stub (that's in the boot.wim file) can't find setup.exe, which is presumed to be in disk:\sources . The bootstrapper was never updated (not even in 10!) with more appropriate verbiage.
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
you'd think updates were coming out every week and it takes two and a half hours to reboot
Well it's not that extreme, but there is a thing lovingly called "patch Tuesday". And rebooting when I wasn't on an SSD could take upwards of an hour if Windows Update was involved.
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@SlackerD said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox The problem isn't the "few minutes of downtime" to perform the reboot; it's the dozen programs I have running at any given moment (not exaggerating) that then have to be tracked down, restarted, and restored to their present state, which can take half an hour.
I have no problem rebooting my Android phone, because when it comes back up I can hit the Square button and see all my apps exactly the way I left them. Windows doesn't do that, so rebooting is a big deal.
I'm a noob when it comes to things like this, but couldn't you write a script of some kind that runs when windows boots up that starts all of said apps for you?
Sure. That's what the Startup folder in the Start Menu is for (but good luck getting there in Windows 8+).
But it doesn't necessarily save all your open windows, documents, other-program-state, does it? That's a mite harder...
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@CrazyEyes said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
installing Windows.
Alternatively, the Windows 10 boot.wim actually can install Windows 7, and from a USB 3.0 drive, but that requires a bit more copy shenanigans....
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@marczellm said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
make a new installation ISO with the driver in it
how? unpack the ISO, copy driver files into some folder, repack in ISO format?
Yes, or, he did mention it was booting off a flash drive.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@hungrier Windows support came way later than BIOS.
Did it though? I can't remember any pre-Vista era computers supporting boot-from-USB (except maybe cutting-edge brand new ones...), and IIRC Vista was also the first Windows to really support boot-from-USB. It certainly wasn't prevalent until at least 7.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@SlackerD said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox The problem isn't the "few minutes of downtime" to perform the reboot; it's the dozen programs I have running at any given moment (not exaggerating) that then have to be tracked down, restarted, and restored to their present state, which can take half an hour.
I have no problem rebooting my Android phone, because when it comes back up I can hit the Square button and see all my apps exactly the way I left them. Windows doesn't do that, so rebooting is a big deal.
I'm a noob when it comes to things like this, but couldn't you write a script of some kind that runs when windows boots up that starts all of said apps for you?
Sure. That's what the Startup folder in the Start Menu is for (but good luck getting there in Windows 8+).
But it doesn't necessarily save all your open windows, documents, other-program-state, does it? That's a mite harder...
Indeed, especially since Win32 apps don't come with built-in state saving/backgrounding APIs like Android apps (should - unless you willingly do stupid shit your app state is saved pretty much by default).
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
People give away everything personal on facebook
So we're not people unless we have a FB account, is that it?
Hmm, not a fan of the new
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@CrazyEyes said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Oh man, this is one of those times where I feel bad because I've actually encountered this exact problem and might have been able to tell you to check the USB drivers right from the get go. The Windows installer is really great at totally annihilating itself trying to recognize EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF HARDWARE ON YOUR MACHINE, no matter how irrelevant it is to installing Windows.
In this case though, I feel that recognizing the storage device containing the Windows installation might be relevant to said installation
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Linux on the other hand
You are kidding arent you ?
Are you saying that this
linux can run on a computer without windows underneath it, at all ? As
in, without a boot disk, without any drivers, and without any services ?That sounds preposterous to me.
If
it were true (and I doubt it), then companies would be selling
computers without a windows. This clearly is not happening, so there
must be some error in your calculations. I hope you realise that
windows is more than just Office ? Its a whole system that runs the
computer from start to finish, and that is a very difficult thing to
acheive. A lot of people dont realise this.Microsoft just spent
$9 billion and many years to create Vista, so it does not sound
reasonable that some new alternative could just snap into existence
overnight like that. It would take billions of dollars and a massive
effort to achieve. IBM tried, and spent a huge amount of money
developing OS/2 but could never keep up with Windows. Apple tried to
create their own system for years, but finally gave up recently and
moved to Intel and Microsoft.Its just not possible that a
freeware like the Linux could be extended to the point where it runs
the entire computer fron start to finish, without using some of the
more critical parts of windows. Not possible.I think you need to re-examine your assumptions.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
You still have no clue about Linux
It's a
brandkernel, nota companyan operating system.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@blakeyrat said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Windows can also swap-out drivers for most bits of hardware without rebooting as an added bonus
You still have no clue about Linux
https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/add-remove-list-linux-kernel-modules/
Your counter-argument to "Windows can do this thing Linux can do" is "Linux can do this thing Windows can do"?
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/add-remove-list-linux-kernel-modules/
Yeah, I hear unloading kernel modules that are in use by devices/applications is a really good idea.
JUST RESTART YOUR SYSTEMS, PEOPLE! CHRIST. It's like you're being asked to smother your baby.
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@heterodox I can see the logic in restarting individual devices instead of the entire computer though. It is more convenient to have just two seconds of blank screen while the graphics card is restarted instead of a minute or so of reboot.
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@RaceProUK said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox I can see the logic in restarting individual devices instead of the entire computer though. It is more convenient to have just two seconds of blank screen while the graphics card is restarted instead of a minute or so of reboot.
That's not a trivial proposition in either Linux or Windows, given they both have monolithic kernels (modular or not). You may be able to do that for a graphics driver, but even that's becoming pretty tricky given all the DRM hooks in the kernel, and for I/O devices it's really not possible without disruption.
... just restart your system. for me. for your piece of mind. for the sake of humanity. finish up what you're doing (every OS allows you to do that) and restart.
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
JUST RESTART YOUR SYSTEMS, PEOPLE! CHRIST. It's like you're being asked to smother your baby.
The problem with Windows Update on servers is not really that it requires a restart, it's that the restart takes much longer than a normal one.
It should be "unpack new files on disk, reboot, replace pointers to old files with pointers to new files while rebooting, profit", which would take just a few extra seconds, but instead it seems to do a whole lot of stuff at reboot time.
Really, without entering into whether reboots should be necessary, Windows Update is just shit and Microsoft should feel bad for having it.
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
You may be able to do that for a graphics driver, but even that's becoming pretty tricky given all the DRM hooks in the kernel
I can update my NVidia drivers without needing a reboot, and it's barely an inconvenience. The worst is I have to move a couple of windows back to where they used to be.
@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
and for I/O devices it's really not possible without disruption
Why? Restarting a network card is something that can be done at any time through the Network and Sharing Center, and that's a matter of seconds too. Not to mention that all USB Mass Storage and MTP devices are hot-swappable, as are most if not all USB keyboards and mice. In fact, I'm finding it very difficult to think of a device that requires a reboot to load a new driver: generally speaking, the device is restarted, and is back up and running within five seconds.
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@anonymous234 said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
The problem with Windows Update on servers is not really that it requires a restart, it's that the restart takes much longer than a normal one.
Yeah, @Tsaukpaetra brought that up yesterday, I think. I've seen that a lot more on home SKUs than on servers and I'll grant I have no idea what Windows is doing at that point in the process. Maybe pre-installation/post-installation scripts? Why can't they run those asynchronously? Those may be more utilized by updates that aren't applicable to Windows Server, I don't know.
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@RaceProUK said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Restarting a network card is something that can be done at any time through the Network and Sharing Center, and that's a matter of seconds too.
And all your network connections are dropped. Not good for home, but disastrous for a server.
In fact, I'm finding it very difficult to think of a device that requires a reboot to load a new driver: generally speaking, the device is restarted, and is back up and running within five seconds.
Those five seconds would be a bit of a problem for a connection to a hard drive or SAN.
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@heterodox There was also the time when Windows Update stopped working on all new Windows 7 installs, because the update checking algorithm scaled exponentially with the number of available updates (how?!), so it would take DAYS of work to process all the available W7 updates. Resulting in Microsoft having to batch up a bunch of older updates to work around the problem.
Just embarrassing.
But that's what happens when you have pretty much zero competition...
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@anonymous234 said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
The problem with Windows Update on servers is not really that it requires a restart, it's that the restart takes much longer than a normal one.
Yeah, @Tsaukpaetra brought that up yesterday, I think. I've seen that a lot more on home SKUs than on servers and I'll grant I have no idea what Windows is doing at that point in the process. Maybe pre-installation/post-installation scripts? Why can't they run those asynchronously? Those may be more utilized by updates that aren't applicable to Windows Server, I don't know.
Actually, the reason it takes longer is because a normal shutdown doesn't actually do a full shutdown.
Since Windows 8 (IIRC; may be 7), a normal shutdown shuts down the userspace, but hibernates kernelspace, thus allowing the next boot to be a lot quicker, as it's really a wake from hibernation. However, when rebooting for an update that affects kernelspace, the kernelspace needs to be fully shut down, and that takes longer than hibernating it.
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
And all your network connections are dropped. Not good for home, but disastrous for a server.
@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Those five seconds would be a bit of a problem for a connection to a hard drive or SAN.
If you're rebooting, aren't you dropping all those connections anyway? Why spend minutes dropping all those connections and restoring them, when you can do the same in seconds?
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@anonymous234 said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox There was also the time when Windows Update stopped working on all new Windows 7 installs, because the update checking algorithm scaled exponentially with the number of available updates (how?!), so it would take DAYS of work to process all the available W7 updates.
Oh, did that happen with W7 as well? I seem to recall something like that happened with XP in my WSUS-administering days. But I don't remember the details; if they didn't learn from their mistakes, that is indeed embarrassing.
@RaceProUK said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Since Windows 8 (IIRC; may be 7), a normal shutdown shuts down the userspace, but hibernates kernelspace, thus allowing the next boot to be a lot quicker, as it's really a wake from hibernation. However, when rebooting for an update that affects kernelspace, the kernelspace needs to be fully shut down, and that takes longer than hibernating it.
That's not the case with servers, to my knowledge. But I'll admit I may be wrong.
Kernel space doesn't seem like it should be that large, though, especially on home SKUs, so it would seem something else is going on there.ETA: Herp derp, I can't read. Size would matter () when hibernating but not when shutting down.I agree that there are differences between Linux and Windows that may make restarting more of a burden on one vs. another, and I also agree that the implementation of Windows Update still seems poor. What I don't agree with is:
- This myth that Linux servers never have to be restarted,
- That running forever is preferable to restarting, or
- That the changes to Windows Update in W10 have been anything but beneficial.
It seems to me that Microsoft is bending over backwards to appease consumers with Active Hours, the later expansion to Active Hours, and the amount of time you can delay a restart. Updates are completely transparent to me as a home user. And I think I'm part of the 99% in this regard. It's fine to be part of the 1%, as long as there's some measure of self-awareness there. Especially for those who are programming for the 99%.
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
That's not the case with servers, to my knowledge. But I'll admit I may be wrong. Kernel space doesn't seem like it should be that large, though, especially on home SKUs, so it would seem something else is going on there.
I've found an image that demonstrates the difference:
Admittedly it's simplistic, but it shows the basics well enough I think.Also, apparently, Fast Start (the name of the feature) doesn't apply to restarts, only shutdowns followed by startups.
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@RaceProUK said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Restarting a network card is something that can be done at any time through the Network and Sharing Center, and that's a matter of seconds too.
And all your network connections are dropped. Not good for home, but disastrous for a server.
In fact, I'm finding it very difficult to think of a device that requires a reboot to load a new driver: generally speaking, the device is restarted, and is back up and running within five seconds.
Those five seconds would be a bit of a problem for a connection to a hard drive or SAN.
You're right, a reboot is better since it doesn't have those side effects
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@RaceProUK said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Also, apparently, Fast Start (the name of the feature) doesn't apply to restarts, only shutdowns followed by startups.
That's good to know. Also would be good to know whether it applies to servers.
That image doesn't include what I think people are complaining about though, which is the "Windows is applying updates... 25%" with a spinner or whatnot during the restart, which I've not seen on a server (then again, you never really look at the console), but I acknowledge takes an unreasonable amount of time on home machines and I really don't know what's going on there.
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@heterodox Updates could definitely be a lot faster.
@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Also would be good to know whether it applies to servers.
It does if you turn it on ;)
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
You're right, a reboot is better since it doesn't have those side effects
I'm saying a kexec or module load/unload is not preferable to a reboot because it does have those side effects. Thus point #2 above and the "Finish up your work then reboot" above that. Reading comprehension seems problematic here.
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@RaceProUK said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@anonymous234 said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
The problem with Windows Update on servers is not really that it requires a restart, it's that the restart takes much longer than a normal one.
Yeah, @Tsaukpaetra brought that up yesterday, I think. I've seen that a lot more on home SKUs than on servers and I'll grant I have no idea what Windows is doing at that point in the process. Maybe pre-installation/post-installation scripts? Why can't they run those asynchronously? Those may be more utilized by updates that aren't applicable to Windows Server, I don't know.
Actually, the reason it takes longer is because a normal shutdown doesn't actually do a full shutdown.
Since Windows 8 (IIRC; may be 7), a normal shutdown shuts down the userspace, but hibernates kernelspace, thus allowing the next boot to be a lot quicker, as it's really a wake from hibernation. However, when rebooting for an update that affects kernelspace, the kernelspace needs to be fully shut down, and that takes longer than hibernating it.
Is that a thing in Server though?