WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Thinking of poking the memory settings once again...
What's the worst that might happen?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
With your luck, probably a world-ending singularity.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Thinking of poking the memory settings once again...
What's the worst that might happen?
YOU ASKED THE QUESTION
NEVER ASK THE QUESTIONnow we hide from the eldritch gods and pray they do not notice us
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@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Thinking of poking the memory settings once again...
What's the worst that might happen?
YOU ASKED THE QUESTION
NEVER ASK THE QUESTIONnow we hide from the eldritch gods and pray they do not notice us
But if they just notice him, we'll get some amusing posts to read.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
I'll have to reboot you again.
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@Zerosquare Surely that's not the worst thing that could possibly happen. That's perhaps an annoyance, but a thoroughly routine annoyance.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
I'll have to reboot you again.
Well it's already rebooting from the kernel panic so... hooray automation?
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The Windows 11 Saga
Since Windows 11 came along I have tried a few times to switch from Win10 to Win11, but found Win11 to be so repulsive and generally retarded that I would always get fed up and go back to Win10. (Thank goodness for Macrium Reflect which can backup and restore everything in minutes.)
With the help of a couple of third-party programs, a new printer driver and a few registry hacks to un-fuck all the things that Microsoft has fucked, I have accidentally managed to wrangle Win11 into something that is actually usable. (For certain values of "usable").
Apparently a company with 60,000 employees and hundreds of billions of dollars can't just do this by default.
Also, TIL:
Apparently, "Windows 10 is the last version of Windows" was never an official Microsoft statement, just some random Microsoft employee talking out of his ass at a conference promoting Windows 10, and all the media people at the conference ran with it.
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@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Thank goodness for Macrium Reflect which can backup and restore everything in minutes
My [only] complaint about it is that .mrimg cannot be mounted with OSFMount and other VHD tools.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
Have you read any of Charles Stross's The Laundry Files series yet?
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
Have you read any of Charles Stross's The Laundry Files series yet?
That sounds like a real book...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
Have you read any of Charles Stross's The Laundry Files series yet?
That sounds like a real book...
The laundry is real.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
Have you read any of Charles Stross's The Laundry Files series yet?
That sounds like a real book...
When PowerPoint is literally soul-destroying.
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@izzion .... Why is Windows having a "feature" to arbitrarily randomize the clock?
Edit: Having read the article...
Why did Microsoft assume without testing?
Note that I'm not surprised, at all, but the amount of effort to check your work here would have been trivial.
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@Tsaukpaetra Did you RTFA? The idea behind it is that it's more secure than NTP if you don't have a secure network connection (because the time is wrong), because without a secure network connection, you can't be certain the time data returned by NTP is from an accurate, non-malicious source. Or something like that.
But it uses the time stamps from SSL traffic (presumed secure, because certs already on the local machine). It seems the failure occurs because it doesn't account for the fact that OpenSSL doesn't return valid time stamps but fills that field with random data. The weird behavior may happen when random timestamps overwhelm the traffic with valid timestamps, and possibly the phase of the moon and other random .
I see your edit, but I'm going to post this anyway for the benefit of others who haven't RTFA.
It's not even just assuming. They've been told many times about the issue, but I guess and/or .
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I see your edit
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Why did Microsoft assume without testing?
That's the end user's job
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This post is deleted!
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Status: Thanks, OneDrive...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Status: Thanks, OneDrive...
Tbf, that’s kind of the least insane way to tell windows task scheduler to do something at these given hours every day.
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@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Status: Thanks, OneDrive...
Tbf, that’s kind of the least insane way to tell windows task scheduler to do something at these given hours every day.
I could possibly excuse it if the updater required an asininely specific time to launch. I might even justify it if it has no failure state to fun again with backoff.
I cannot excuse it for individually installing an ostensibly core OS component as a user application for every user, and thus check at random times for each and every user if their copy of the app happens to need to be updated.
For once I would advocate for Microsoft shit to update itself using Windows Update if it's that goddamn important...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
For once I would advocate for Microsoft shit to update itself using Windows Update if it's that goddamn important...
It's so important to keep it up-to-date that they didn't trust Windows Update for the job
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@TimeBandit reasonable decision.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra The idea behind it is that it's more secure than NTP if you don't have a secure network connection (because the time is wrong), because without a secure network connection, you can't be certain the time data returned by NTP is from an accurate, non-malicious source. Or something like that.
. . . OpenSSL doesn't return valid time stamps but fills that field with random data.
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If you look at the spec, it was explicitly not intended to be used for timing purposes, only as an additional source of entropy. And in practice, implementations have been doing that for a decade or two without issue.
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@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra The idea behind it is that it's more secure than NTP if you don't have a secure network connection (because the time is wrong), because without a secure network connection, you can't be certain the time data returned by NTP is from an accurate, non-malicious source. Or something like that.
. . . OpenSSL doesn't return valid time stamps but fills that field with random data.
From what I understand, as a specific fuck-you to avoid issues when you don't have a RTC.
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Seems that win11 has problems to schedule modern CPUs with heterogeneous cores
HandBrake (video transcoder), Steam downloads with high bandwidth:
python software:
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@cabrito Seems tl;dr is that background processes (e.g., without an in-focus window) seem to get pushed to E cores a lot.
Somebody:
To solve this problem, you need to run Vs Code (or any other process) as an administrator
And more than a decade of educating users on best security practices goes up in smoke.
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@cabrito said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Seems that win11 has problems to schedule modern CPUs with heterogeneous cores
HandBrake (video transcoder), Steam downloads with high bandwidth:
...with this update, the program (HandBrake) runs only on E-Cores when the screen is turned off. I either have to sacrifice my screen to burn-in or double my video encoding time.
I thought "screen burn-in" was only a thing on old CRT monitors.
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@cabrito I don't have a retarded CPU and this is actually affecting me. I think Game Mode (which apparently is turned on by default) is also partly to blame.
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@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@cabrito said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Seems that win11 has problems to schedule modern CPUs with heterogeneous cores
HandBrake (video transcoder), Steam downloads with high bandwidth:
...with this update, the program (HandBrake) runs only on E-Cores when the screen is turned off. I either have to sacrifice my screen to burn-in or double my video encoding time.
I thought "screen burn-in" was only a thing on old CRT monitors.
It's more of a screen burn-out now. Especially with OLED, but lcd is also impacted by fatigue.
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Another reason to not upgrade, thanks!
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@dkf said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What's the worst that might happen?
Have you read any of Charles Stross's The Laundry Files series yet?
It's why I keep track of my paperclips.
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@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I had to track down a bug where some of the test machines would reset their clocks to midnight 1970. As part of one of the tests one of the devices would make themselves a master ntp server, factory reset itself a few tests later but thanks to buggy firmware would stay master and the rest of the network would follow.
You would be surprised by how much havoc that caused when it leaked into the main network.
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@cvi said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@cabrito Seems tl;dr is that background processes (e.g., without an in-focus window) seem to get pushed to E cores a lot.
For now they could just turn off the efficiency cores. You should be able to do that in the BIOS/UEFI for chipsets that support CPUs with different core types. From what I understand they don't save much power anyway, at least with the current Windows Scheduler.
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@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Another reason to not upgrade, thanks!
Like we need more reasons
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
they don't save much power anyway,
Wasn't that their explicit purpose though?
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
they don't save much power anyway,
Wasn't that their explicit purpose though?
Have you never encountered something that had a specific purpose but failed to achieve that purpose?
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
they don't save much power anyway,
Wasn't that their explicit purpose though?
Have you never encountered something that had a specific purpose but failed to achieve that purpose?
I didn't mean to imply surprise.
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@Tsaukpaetra But that would require actual engineering support, both from Intel making sure there is a big enough difference and from Microsoft to make sure Windows is properly designed to use a heterogenous architecture. My reaction to finding out that is not the case is the same as Pikachu’s.
While I don’t expect Apple-level optimisation from Microsoft I would hope they are going to make the scheduler a bit more intelligent. But, uh,
pessimistrealist outlook causes me to .
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@Atazhaia was there something wrong with the scheduler in Win10? Because, uh, I dint recall ever having that issue in 10…
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@Arantor You mean the scheduler that didn't (afaik) get any optimisations at all for handling E-cores and P-cores? That would be... interesting if so.
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@Atazhaia well, it sounds like these optimisations are a backward step so…
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@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
it sounds like these optimisations are a backward step so…
Don't worry, Microsoft will fix it in Windows 12.
They need to keep inventing reasons to force people to upgrade.
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
For now they could just turn off the efficiency cores. You should be able to do that in the BIOS/UEFI for chipsets that support CPUs with different core types. From what I understand they don't save much power anyway, at least with the current Windows Scheduler.
There were some mentions of that in one of the articles. Apparently, you're leaving a bit of performance on the table if you do that - each E core isn't as beefy as a P core, but it's also not nothing. For tasks that are actually parallelize across a pile of cores and CPU bound, it seems to make a difference.
I vaguely recall seeing power consumption being mentioned ... IIRC with just E-cores they couldn't get to TDP of the CPU. Whether it's saving power for a certain task is a more tricky question (e.g., it might be better to burst at max perf for a shorter while than run at lower perf for a long time).
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@TimeBandit the rate this is going I might get back on the Linux-on-my-desktop train I got off in 2004 because I enjoyed gaming too much. The latter appears to be less problematic than dealing with Windows which just feels like a sign of how far the mighty have fallen.
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@cvi It reminds me of the introduction of Hyperthreading, when the OSes didn't know that some of the cores they saw were related. Most of the time it worked out OK, but some jobs had performance issues if they were sharing a core. The simplest way around it was to turn HT off, giving up general performance but improving that specific task.
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@Parody Yeah, that seems like a good comparison. It'll probably end up in a similar state, where for some tasks, it simply is better to disable the E cores. Though I'd suspect that being rare when/if schedulers get around to not sucking.
Some shared computing resources that measure things by core hours disable hyperthreading. It messes with their accounting (e.g., do you pay full core hours if you get scheduled as a sibling thread?), and their workloads may not benefit as much from HT either.
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Just had my first experience with Windows 11.
Opened the start/ad menu and the only thing I got was "can't feed your widgets" with a "Try again" button.If you don't have an internet connection, you can't see the start menu