WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else
-
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Nononono. I meant physically move the monitor W11 thinks is primary to the middle (or just swap video cables). Then use the display layout to make the logical match the physical.
This is surrender. Doing work to accommodate the machine? Are you French?
-
@Gribnit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Nononono. I meant physically move the monitor W11 thinks is primary to the middle (or just swap video cables). Then use the display layout to make the logical match the physical.
This is surrender. Doing work to accommodate the machine? Are you French?
Some things you just have to bow to the gods and pray they don't randomly reassign primary on the next boot. (Why, yes, I did have an issue with that! In the past I had a 4K and non-4K monitor. The 4K sometimes booted slow enough that Windows didn't see it in time on a cold boot and the monitors would switch - I fixed that by getting another 4K monitor)
-
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Windows 11 just compels me to have the main taskbar on the main display.
Simple. Make the main display the middle one (and rearrange the display layout)! And then you'll find out what apps handle negative positioning numbers correctly.
Yes, because making the display layout not match the physical layout so that moving my mouse to the left monitor involves going off the right side of the right monitor is a guaranteed way to increase my productivity
Nononono. I meant physically move the monitor W11 thinks is primary to the middle (or just swap video cables). Then use the display layout to make the logical match the physical.
I doubt that works, since both win10 and linux identify monitors based on IDs emitted by the monitor themselves. Similarly they both allow setting primary independent of monitor positioning, but I'll grant they may have cut out basic functionality on that one since that's the root of the entire complaint.
Personally, my primary monitor is on the left. And my primary taskbar is on the top of the right-hand monitor.
-
@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Personally, my primary monitor is on the left. And my primary taskbar is on the top of the right-hand monitor.
If I ever upgrade this machine to W11, that's what I'll do. Because the right monitor is currently in portrait mode. (The taskbar belongs on the short edge of the monitor dammit!)
-
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Windows 11 just compels me to have the main taskbar on the main display.
Simple. Make the main display the middle one (and rearrange the display layout)! And then you'll find out what apps handle negative positioning numbers correctly.
Yes, because making the display layout not match the physical layout so that moving my mouse to the left monitor involves going off the right side of the right monitor is a guaranteed way to increase my productivity
Nononono. I meant physically move the monitor W11 thinks is primary to the middle (or just swap video cables). Then use the display layout to make the logical match the physical.
I already have told Windows that my middle monitor is primary, that's not hard. I just don't want the main task bar there
-
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Windows 11 just compels me to have the main taskbar on the main display.
Simple. Make the main display the middle one (and rearrange the display layout)! And then you'll find out what apps handle negative positioning numbers correctly.
I seem to have avoided any that apparently don't. What's the bug on display here?
-
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Simple. Make the main display the middle one (and rearrange the display layout)! And then you'll find out what apps handle negative positioning numbers correctly.
I seem to have avoided any that apparently don't. What's the bug on display here?
I haven't actually run into one (yet), but you know (since you hang out on this site) that some program is going to consider negative window coordinates as not valid.
-
@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Windows 11 just compels me to have the main taskbar on the main display.
Simple. Make the main display the middle one (and rearrange the display layout)! And then you'll find out what apps handle negative positioning numbers correctly.
Yes, because making the display layout not match the physical layout so that moving my mouse to the left monitor involves going off the right side of the right monitor is a guaranteed way to increase my productivity
Nononono. I meant physically move the monitor W11 thinks is primary to the middle (or just swap video cables). Then use the display layout to make the logical match the physical.
I doubt that works, since both win10 and linux identify monitors based on IDs emitted by the monitor themselves.
It's worked for me; I had to rearrange the cables for my monitors so the one directly in front of me was the "first" one for both the BIOS/UEFI and for Windows.
I have also occasionally rearranged Windows' virtual monitor layout to put a monitor into the negative coordinates for software testing. Found some weird bugs that way. :)
-
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Simple. Make the main display the middle one (and rearrange the display layout)! And then you'll find out what apps handle negative positioning numbers correctly.
I seem to have avoided any that apparently don't. What's the bug on display here?
I haven't actually run into one (yet), but you know (since you hang out on this site) that some program is going to consider negative window coordinates as not valid.
I think I had that happen in the XP days.
-
@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I doubt that works, since both win10 and linux identify monitors based on IDs emitted by the monitor themselves. Similarly they both allow setting primary independent of monitor positioning, but I'll grant they may have cut out basic functionality on that one
Cutting out basic functionality is what Microsoft does best.
-
@PleegWat said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
And my primary taskbar is on the top of the right-hand monitor.
-
Today in MS Edge updates: I started Edge to visit a website that's been broken in other browsers and Edge had been updated with a new feature and "kindly" imported all my Chrome data, so the open tabs, installed addons, login sessions () were all automagically opened/installed in Edge. Did I get an option to permit this? Fuck no, Edge just does this because fuck your workflows and usage patterns! Who uses more than one browser at the same time, that's all crazy! And what better way to show you're the "privacy-focused browser" by doing an invasion of privacy and stealing data from other browsers without permission?
Also, the website I was gonna visit is now broken in Edge too.
-
Investigating "a spike of Explorer crashes" leads Raymond to go on a bit of a rant about third-party âshell enhancementâ programs who try to patch explorer.exe using "nefarious means" instead of the normal shell extension mechanisms.
Hilarity ensues as nearly all of the comments are people pointing out that these third-party programs wouldn't even exist if Microsoft would stop removing functionality and fucking things up. Apparently, someone isn't happy about the responses, as the comments have been locked.
It turns out that the âshell enhancementâ program discussed here is called Explorer Patcher which restores some taskbar features that were removed from Windows 11.
I tried it (ironically, just before reading Raymond's blog post) and the program works as advertised .... well, it did until the latest Windows update, and then it completely borks your computer.
It seems that patching Explorer is not such a good idea.
-
@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Unfortunately, these patchers also cause Windows customer satisfaction numbers to plunge every time an update goes out,
No, Windows Update is what causes the customer satisfaction to plunge
-
@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Unfortunately, these patchers also cause Windows customer satisfaction numbers to plunge every time an update goes out,
No, Windows Update is what causes the customer satisfaction to plunge
I think you missed the more important part of that quote
particularly among users who donât realize that the problem was caused by that program their computer-savvy nephew installed for them.
:trolley-not-trolley:
I get it, we all are opinionated about what Windows has done wrong and why moving the taskbar to anywhere other than the bottom of the main monitor is the best thing since sliced bread. But Raymond is even more correct that we shouldnât be inflicting our opinions on low-tech relatives that will have no ability to troubleshoot non-native Windows issues.
-
@izzion Fair enough.
(and for the purposes of having a balanced discourse: )
-
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I get it, we all are opinionated about what Windows has done wrong and why moving the taskbar to anywhere other than the bottom of the main monitor is the best thing since sliced bread. But Raymond is even more correct that we shouldnât be inflicting our opinions on low-tech relatives that will have no ability to troubleshoot non-native Windows issues.
It has nothing to do with "that program their computer-savvy nephew installed for them". That is just silly nonsense that Raymond threw in to deflect away from the real issue.
If Windows customer satisfaction numbers go down its because Microsoft steadfastly refuses to learn from the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
One comment from Raymond's blog post summed it up quite well:"...when articles such as this are written, about widely used 3rd party tweaks, and the commenting strongly supports the tweak in question, MS always charges forward with âall these enthusiasts are wrong, we will continue our wayâ and its telling of how far out of touch the Win dev team is from its user base."
-
@Gern_Blaanston Raymond is correct from a technical perspective, as always, and thatâs what heâs writing about. The commenters are correct that MS keeps fucking up their products. He chooses not to want to talk about that, but he opened the door for it when he wrongly attributed customer satisfaction numbers.
-
@topspin To be fair, Raymond may even be right about customer satisfaction. It does seem that most people don't give a damn about workspace ergonomics of this sort. They don't care to devote any time into setting it up, and not just because MS is going to fuck it up in the next release. They fumble around every time they need something, even if it's on their Desktop, because computer is just a tool for them, like a very advanced screwdriver (that also goes wrong for very advanced reasons). And phones and fondleslabs have only made it worse (no visible file system to bother themselves with).
-
@Gern_Blaanston said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I get it, we all are opinionated about what Windows has done wrong and why moving the taskbar to anywhere other than the bottom of the main monitor is the best thing since sliced bread. But Raymond is even more correct that we shouldnât be inflicting our opinions on low-tech relatives that will have no ability to troubleshoot non-native Windows issues.
It has nothing to do with "that program their computer-savvy nephew installed for them". That is just silly nonsense that Raymond threw in to deflect away from the real issue.
If Windows customer satisfaction numbers go down its because Microsoft steadfastly refuses to learn from the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
One comment from Raymond's blog post summed it up quite well:"...when articles such as this are written, about widely used 3rd party tweaks, and the commenting strongly supports the tweak in question, MS always charges forward with âall these enthusiasts are wrong, we will continue our wayâ and its telling of how far out of touch the Win dev team is from its user base."
Speaking as someone who has supported low-tech elderly persons, if their computer-savvy nephew does install some "simple tweaks" program for them, they have no idea that what their computer is doing isn't native Windows behavior. Which puts them at a huge disadvantage when they have to use any other computer that is running native Windows, and also means that whenever a system patch breaks the third party program, they think Windows is the problem and it makes them less satisfied with Windows.
And I've helped plenty of low-tech elderly persons and had to remove the "simple tweaks" shitware that their well meaning hipster relations installed for them. So I can certainly believe the issue is widespread enough to have attained infamy within Windows Customer Support circles, since I'm sure their support customer demographic skews very heavily toward low-tech elderly persons.
-
@izzion said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
...they think Windows is the problem and it makes them less satisfied with Windows.
And thus are one step closer to enlightenment.
-
@boomzilla Enlightenment thread is over there.
-
@HardwareGeek you'll have noted I did not capitalize it. This was not a mistake.
-
@Gern_Blaanston I tried Explorer Patcher for a while (in a VM). Then one day, the start menu just failed to work. Screw it. I'll just live with the toolbar in the wrong place. Looks like I jumped ship early enough that I didn't get bitten by that bug!
-
@dcon Did you ever catch the computer-savvy nephew who dun it?
-
@izzion: I really do wonder how Raymond Chen truly feels about today's MS direction. His older articles speak at length how he far he went to keep older programs working in newer versions of Windows, even when they were doing truly stuff internally. It must be painful to stomach his work being sabotaged by the result of listening to so-called "designers" and marketing.
Of course, even if he thinks so, he's never going to admit it on his corporate blog. But if I ever meet him in an "off-the-record" context, it's something I'd ask him.
-
Moving
forwardbackward
-
@TimeBandit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Moving
forwardbackwardWhew.
Microsoft has, however, included a way to revert this change by going to the Settings > Accessibility > Keyboard menu and toggling the 'Use the Print Screen key to open Snipping Tool' to off.
At least we'll be able to change it back.
Huh. That poll is closer than I would have thought...
-
@TimeBandit for now at least it's optional.
Microsoft has, however, included a way to revert this change by going to the Settings > Accessibility > Keyboard menu and toggling the 'Use the Print Screen key to open Snipping Tool' to off.
Plus there's always the only consistent Windows settings UI
It can also be changed by editing the registry.
-
@dcon said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
At least we'll be able to change it back.
One day, maybe they'll reach the level of flexibility of KDE
-
@TimeBandit that'd be an actual improvement and too obvious a one for Microsoft.
The macOS screenshot tool is better than Windows' for the same reason KDE's is - different shortcuts for capturing different things.
-
@loopback0 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
different shortcuts for capturing different things.
Not only that.
For example, when I take a screenshot using a rectangular region, I can adjust the 4 sides if I didn't catch everything I wanted. Also, if I don't close the tool, when I take another screenshot, the same rectangle appear and I can take another screenshot of the same area.
There is a lot of reason that I miss that tool when I'm stuck on Windows.
-
@TimeBandit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
There is a lot of reason that I miss that tool when I'm stuck on Windows.
Microsoft are a small company. They're doing their best.
-
@loopback0 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Microsoft are a small company. They're doing their best.
At least, they hired a mega testing team.
End users
-
I keep reading Snipping Tool as Sniping Tool and I'm disappointed when I notice that's not what it's called.
-
@TimeBandit You already could replace Print Screen with the Snipping Tool/Snip & Sketch/the combined Snipping Tool (depending on which version of the OS you're on). It is annoying that I'll have to go turn it off again.
-
@loopback0 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@TimeBandit that'd be an actual improvement and too obvious a one for Microsoft.
The macOS screenshot tool is better than Windows' for the same reason KDE's is - different shortcuts for capturing different things.
You already have Entire Desktop (Print Screen) and Active Window (Alt-Print Screen). Win-Shift-S is the Snipping Tool/Snip & Sketch/new Snipping Tool, which gives you regions and delays. I'd rather edit a screenshot in a good bitmap editor, but I'm not doing it that often anyway.
The last time I used a special program for screenshots was back in the Windows 9x days; I was writing video game reviews and basic Print Screen didn't work with games of the era. Heck, most of the games didn't support Alt-Tab so you had to have something that would write the pictures somewhere and come back later.
-
There was that trick â namely used by Process Explorer to replace Task Manager â where you set a registry key to tell the OS that a particular program should be used as the debugger of another program; such that when starting the latter the former will be launched instead.
I wonder if that can be used here as well.
-
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@loopback0 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@TimeBandit that'd be an actual improvement and too obvious a one for Microsoft.
The macOS screenshot tool is better than Windows' for the same reason KDE's is - different shortcuts for capturing different things.
You already have Entire Desktop (Print Screen) and Active Window (Alt-Print Screen). Win-Shift-S is the Snipping Tool/Snip & Sketch/new Snipping Tool, which gives you regions and delays. I'd rather edit a screenshot in a good bitmap editor, but I'm not doing it that often anyway.
The last time I used a special program for screenshots was back in the Windows 9x days; I was writing video game reviews and basic Print Screen didn't work with games of the era. Heck, most of the games didn't support Alt-Tab so you had to have something that would write the pictures somewhere and come back later.
I've gotten used to using KDE's print screen utility. Having a shortcut to get me that on Windows using the key I automatically reach for is great. I learned about the Win-Shift-S just the other day but if you'd asked me before I read these posts I couldn't have told you what it was. I can't remember the last time I wanted to capture my entire screen.
-
@boomzilla said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I can't remember the last time I wanted to capture my entire screen.
The only time I do that is when I want to capture a popup menu. Because doing anything else causes the menu to close.
edit: Oh, hey! win/alt/s actually works on context menus! I hadn't tried before...
-
So is Win11 usable yet?
-
-
@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
So is Win
11usable yet?Hahahahah
Well, assume I - for my mortal sins and eternal damnation - want to remain on Windows. Is it currently worth taking a working Win10 setup to Win11?
-
@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Hahahahah
You sound slightly insincere and unamused.
-
@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Well, assume I - for my mortal sins and eternal damnation - want to remain on Windows. Is it currently worth taking a working Win10 setup to Win11?
Depends on whether you like the taskbar permanently pinned to the bottom of the screen.
I'm not upgrading my Win10 boxes (yet). I did get W11 on the new laptop.
-
@Applied-Mediocrity no, that genuinely made me laugh. Itâs funny because itâs true and there was a time I would have sincerely and wholeheartedly agreed with the sentiment but as I said, Iâm in hell already, might as well keep it burning in the shadow of the almighty fenestre.
-
@dcon oddly enough, never customised it enough to care. Iâm not one of the folks who pinned it to the left. My biggest taskbar gripe is the MSI vendorware that keeps pinning its Dragon Center crap to the taskbar every reboot.
-
@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
So is Win
11usable yet?Hahahahah
Well, assume I - for my mortal sins and eternal damnation - want to remain on Windows. Is it currently worth taking a working Win10 setup to Win11?Iâve done an in place upgrade of my network setup test machine at work, and my new day to day machine came with 11 on it. Havenât noticed any differences to how I work besides the aforementioned irritation with âless customizableâ start bar setups on multi-displays.
Still not brave enough to try it on my home gaming PC yet. Maybe after we clear the tier.
-
@Arantor said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Is it currently worth taking a working Win10 setup to Win11?
It's fine IME. Unless you're one of those weirdos who puts the taskbar in silly places.
-
@loopback0 Or allow your tech-savvy nephew to install unsanctioned Explorer extensions.