WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else
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@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
i7-2600k
Wait...how many aeons ago is that? How big is your ?
I put the first version of this computer together in early 2012, IIRC.
The 2600k was the best of its generation price/performance wise and processors improved rather slowly for generations afterwards, so upgrading hasn't been a priority. Now they're greatly improved but I have to build a whole new computer to get there.
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
i7-2600k
Wait...how many aeons ago is that? How big is your ?
I put the first version of this computer together in early 2012, IIRC.
The 2600k was the best of its generation price/performance wise and processors improved rather slowly for generations afterwards, so upgrading hasn't been a priority.
For me, it's not so much processor performance as chipset support for things like SSDs, graphics cards, RAM, etc. Which makes upgrading anything else kinda hard once you get outside the current generation.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
i7-2600k
Wait...how many aeons ago is that? How big is your ?
I put the first version of this computer together in early 2012, IIRC.
The 2600k was the best of its generation price/performance wise and processors improved rather slowly for generations afterwards, so upgrading hasn't been a priority.
For me, it's not so much processor performance as chipset support for things like SSDs, graphics cards, RAM, etc. Which makes upgrading anything else kinda hard once you get outside the current generation.
Outside the current generation of what?
You can use current SSDs, graphics cards, RAM etc with CPUs from several generations ago.
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@loopback0 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
i7-2600k
Wait...how many aeons ago is that? How big is your ?
I put the first version of this computer together in early 2012, IIRC.
The 2600k was the best of its generation price/performance wise and processors improved rather slowly for generations afterwards, so upgrading hasn't been a priority.
For me, it's not so much processor performance as chipset support for things like SSDs, graphics cards, RAM, etc. Which makes upgrading anything else kinda hard once you get outside the current generation.
Outside the current generation of what?
You can use current SSDs, graphics cards, RAM etc with CPUs from several generations ago.I found when I rebuilt my machine that most of my old parts no longer worked with the new motherboard and vice versa--the old motherboard wouldn't support the newer parts. And that was roughly with a 3 year old CPU.
In my particular case, I had to replace the CPU because...well...it turns out that if you don't fasten down the heat sink well so it's just resting on the CPU and letting the thermal paste all dry up, the CPU really doesn't like itself after a bit. Who knew.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
i7-2600k
Wait...how many aeons ago is that? How big is your ?
I put the first version of this computer together in early 2012, IIRC.
The 2600k was the best of its generation price/performance wise and processors improved rather slowly for generations afterwards, so upgrading hasn't been a priority.
For me, it's not so much processor performance as chipset support for things like SSDs, graphics cards, RAM, etc. Which makes upgrading anything else kinda hard once you get outside the current generation.
I mean, backwards compatibility is part of the hardware specs too. I have an Nvidia 1060 video card and recent SATA SSD as a boot drive. RAM is unchanged from when I made it, but I put in 16 GB at the time. (It's slower than current RAM, of course.)
What I can't do is buy, say, an m.2 SSD for a boot drive and bring it forward. I've waited too long.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I found when I rebuilt my machine that most of my old parts no longer worked with the new motherboard and vice versa--the old motherboard wouldn't support the newer parts.
Last time I changed CPU and motherboard, the only other thing I had to change at the same time was the RAM due to a physical incompatibility between DDR3 and DDR4. SSDs, HDDs, graphics card etc all carried over fine.
The SSDs, graphics card and RAM in my current computer would survive a move to a current generation CPU and motherboard, until DDR5 becomes the norm then I'll need to replace that too.
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What I can't do is buy, say, an m.2 SSD for a boot drive and bring it forward. I've waited too long.
Technically I think you can. I believe P67 could boot from PCI-E. Which means you could install a PCI-E M.2 riser.
I don't recommend it, however. You know, in case I'm wrong. I know PCI-E drives work as such (even on P55), but can't remember about booting.
Also, unless the board can switch the first X16 to X8:X8, it would have to be the first slot (usually taken by the videocard). PCH-linked slots share bandwidth with everything else, which only has 2.0 GB/s total.
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@Benjamin-Hall Which specific parts seemed to be the issue?
I, too, been upgrading my computer piecemeal for more than a decade. Although CPU, motherboard and RAM tend to get upgraded as a set (apart from some mid-cycle RAM expansions), I haven't really met any incompatibilities since GPUs all went from AGP to PCI-E.
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@acrow Same; this time around I was even able to reuse the RAM (it was already DDR4 and it was actually fairly new, from one of the midcycle expansions you mention). SATA has basically been around forever at this point (haven't seen an IDE or SCSI drive in ages) and the different PCIe versions are all kinda compatible.
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@hungrier said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
you can also just buy a new one OK?you can also just switch to Linux, can't you?
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@cvi said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
haven't seen an IDE or SCSI drive in ages
SCSI drives are still around in the form of SAS, which uses SCSI protocol over a high-speed serial interface. I worked on a SAS project fairly recently, about 3–4 years ago, I think — not drives, but the host end of the interface. They're expensive, though, so pretty much limited to enterprise-class servers and such, not general computing.
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
SCSI drives are still around in the form of SAS, which uses SCSI protocol over a high-speed serial interface.
Fair. I was specifically thinking of some very old drives that had a specific SCSI connector. (But I briefly looked that up, and it doesn't seem like there ever was a single (parallel) SCSI connector. The Wikipedia page already shows a few different ones.)
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@cvi said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
SCSI drives are still around in the form of SAS, which uses SCSI protocol over a high-speed serial interface.
Fair. I was specifically thinking of some very old drives that had a specific SCSI connector. (But I briefly looked that up, and it doesn't seem like there ever was a single (parallel) SCSI connector. The Wikipedia page already shows a few different ones.)
Yeah, there were a ton. I remember internal devices having 50- and 68-pin ribbon cables. Externals had the big Centronics connector (50-pin equivalent), small connector whose name I never knew (68-pin equivalent), and the Macs had a 20-some-odd-pin D-sub connector. That only gets you into the early 90s and not into data centers.
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@BernieTheBernie said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
you can also just switch to Linux, can't you?
That would fix the "too slow" and "run it securely" parts
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
small connector whose name I never knew (68-pin equivalent)
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Mainly for the headline, didn't read the TFA
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
With Windows 11 Microsoft has been making a lot of noise about security to justify its TPM 2.0 requirement, but it hasn't adequately explained why, say, Intel's 7th gen Core CPUs are too insecure to include while the 8th gen CPUs are. It was also pretty suspicious when the single mobile 7th gen CPU Microsoft decided to add to the list happened to be installed in the $3,500 Surface Studio 2 it currently sells.
That about sums it up.
Microsoft told The Verge that its minimum requirements aren't really the minimum requirements, after all; they're just the requirements to get an automatic Windows 10 to Windows 11 upgrade.
Wait, so, I can avoid the first wave of automatic "upgrades" if I remove any and all TPM modules and possibly disable the feature in my motherboard? Nice.
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@acrow said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
With Windows 11 Microsoft has been making a lot of noise about security to justify its TPM 2.0 requirement, but it hasn't adequately explained why, say, Intel's 7th gen Core CPUs are too insecure to include while the 8th gen CPUs are. It was also pretty suspicious when the single mobile 7th gen CPU Microsoft decided to add to the list happened to be installed in the $3,500 Surface Studio 2 it currently sells.
That about sums it up.
Microsoft told The Verge that its minimum requirements aren't really the minimum requirements, after all; they're just the requirements to get an automatic Windows 10 to Windows 11 upgrade.
Wait, so, I can avoid the first wave of automatic "upgrades" if I remove any and all TPM modules and possibly disable the feature in my motherboard? Nice.
My gaming rig will probably move to Linux when this shit rolls in, the rest of my computers will already be running Linux by then. The one exception will be the customer laptops. Why do they persist in using Windows?
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@Carnage Wish I could follow suit. A lot of MCU SDKs and manufacturer IDEs are Windows-only. So company is stuck with it.
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https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/how-the-hell-is-microsoft-already-screwing-up-windows-11-this-badly/ said:
How do you screw up the launch of your biggest product this thoroughly before it's even out?
Practice.
Just wait til you see Windows 12.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
What I can't do is buy, say, an m.2 SSD for a boot drive and bring it forward. I've waited too long.
Technically I think you can. I believe P67 could boot from PCI-E. Which means you could install a PCI-E M.2 riser.
I don't recommend it, however. You know, in case I'm wrong. I know PCI-E drives work as such (even on P55), but can't remember about booting.
Also, unless the board can switch the first X16 to X8:X8, it would have to be the first slot (usually taken by the videocard). PCH-linked slots share bandwidth with everything else, which only has 2.0 GB/s total.
Interesting. My motherboard is an ASRock P67 Extreme4 Gen3, which apparently cannot boot from this type of PCI-E device without its own BIOS/UEFI/option ROM/whatever they call it nowadays. (They never updated the UEFI to have the right driver.) It can split the PCI-E 3.0 slots into two X8s.
There are people out there modifying their firmware to add a boot driver, but I'm not up for potentially bricking my computer. Guess I'll just have to wait and do it all at once. :)
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
small connector whose name I never knew (68-pin equivalent)
Hmm...I want to say the other external I had to deal with was 7 or 8. Plenty of 1s and 2s.
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@acrow said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
MCU SDKs
Marvel Cinematic Universe has SDKs? Awesome! Can you build your own superhero?
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
My motherboard is an ASRock P67 Extreme4 Gen3
There are people out there modifying their firmware to add a boot driver, but I'm not up for potentially bricking my computerIt has a removable DIP-8 ROM. Man up
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@robo2 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@acrow said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
MCU SDKs
Marvel Cinematic Universe has SDKs? Awesome! Can you build your own superhero?
Wouldn't know. And don't want to know. But considering the movies generally have a larger budget for computering than actors, so it is likely.
Micro-Controller Units, however, all have an SDK. Or 2 or 3.
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@robo2 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Can you build your own superhero?
Preferably without any stupid costume and ridiculous dark past
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@robo2 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
Can you build your own superhero?
Preferably without any stupid costume and ridiculous dark past
One of Marvel's most powerful superheroes doesn't have a dark part. Unless they've retconned one. Being chased by a dog and saved by a squirrel is her origin story.
It'd been awesome if she'd been the one to whip Thanos in endgame. Because she's done that in comics.
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@Carnage I see dark parts in her!
Captain Tyop away
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@Zecc said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Carnage I see dark parts in her!
Captain Tyop away
That's just lighting
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24 hours a day x 7 days a week = 168 hours x .2% = 33 minutes of crashes every week.
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@El_Heffe where did we get this number?
Well, we called back Steve Ballmer and he personally pulled it out of his ass.
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@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
24 hours a day x 7 days a week = 168 hours x .2% = 33 minutes of crashes every week.
0.33 hours is 20 minutes, but yeah.
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@loopback0 said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@El_Heffe said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
24 hours a day x 7 days a week = 168 hours x .2% = 33 minutes of crashes every week.
0.33 hours is 20 minutes, but yeah.
Imperialist!
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@topspin Oh come on. At least Ol' Baller would have delivered those lines jumping up and down the stage screaming his lungs out. The guy totally was on high-octane flour power. But I'd take that instead of today's bunch of slime molds in suits telling us the equivalent of "You guys don't have TPMs?".
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@Applied-Mediocrity At least anyone with a Ryzen CPU will have a TPM as it's built into the CPU itself, although disabled by default iirc. Dunno how the Intel side is looking for that.
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@Atazhaia said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
At least anyone with a Ryzen CPU will have a TPM as it's built into the CPU itself
Ass-us recent (at least June 2021) BIOS updates are now enabling it by default. Probably others do, too.
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But TPM support isn't the only requirement for Windows 11. You also need a CPU that's explicitly listed as supported. And a number of "powerful enough, and not that old" CPUs are not included in this list.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Atazhaia said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
At least anyone with a Ryzen CPU will have a TPM as it's built into the CPU itself
Ass-us recent (at least June 2021) BIOS updates are now enabling it by default. Probably others do, too.
I guess that’s the end-game here?
TPMs are an anti-feature that you’d want to disable in the bios but Windows requiring it forces you to have it enabled?
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Atazhaia said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
At least anyone with a Ryzen CPU will have a TPM as it's built into the CPU itself
Ass-us recent (at least June 2021) BIOS updates are now enabling it by default. Probably others do, too.
I guess that’s the end-game here?
TPMs are an anti-feature that you’d want to disable in the bios but Windows requiring it forces you to have it enabled?Didn't they do that last time?
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
TPMs are an anti-feature that you’d want to disable in the bios but Windows requiring it forces you to have it enabled?
Only if you want to use Windows
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Atazhaia said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
At least anyone with a Ryzen CPU will have a TPM as it's built into the CPU itself
Ass-us recent (at least June 2021) BIOS updates are now enabling it by default. Probably others do, too.
I guess that’s the end-game here?
TPMs are an anti-feature that you’d want to disable in the bios but Windows requiring it forces you to have it enabled?I see them as more of a Meh feature that I don't personally care about but the OS folks do, much like the equivalent hardware in a smartphone.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
TPMs are an anti-feature that you’d want to disable in the bios
<serious> Why? What's wrong with them? I don't think I know enough to make an informed decision, but from the vague bits I know, it seems like a reasonable increase in security vs boot-based persistent threats.</serious>
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@Parody said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Applied-Mediocrity said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Atazhaia said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
At least anyone with a Ryzen CPU will have a TPM as it's built into the CPU itself
Ass-us recent (at least June 2021) BIOS updates are now enabling it by default. Probably others do, too.
I guess that’s the end-game here?
TPMs are an anti-feature that you’d want to disable in the bios but Windows requiring it forces you to have it enabled?I see them as more of a Meh feature that I don't personally care about but the OS folks do, much like the equivalent hardware in a smartphone.
I view them as an enemy agent and plot towards their quiet neutralization.
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I wonder if @topspin is thinking of Secure Boot instead of TPM.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I wonder if @topspin is thinking of Secure Boot instead of TPM.
Tricky to verify a signature without a trusted execution environment
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@Gribnit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
a trusted execution environment
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@TimeBandit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@Gribnit said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
a trusted execution environment
No, that's quorum-based.
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@Zerosquare said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
I wonder if @topspin is thinking of Secure Boot instead of TPM.
No, but I’ve been just guessing.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 11? And nothing else:
TPMs are an anti-feature that you’d want to disable in the bios
<serious> Why? What's wrong with them? I don't think I know enough to make an informed decision, but from the vague bits I know, it seems like a reasonable increase in security vs boot-based persistent threats.</serious>
I am not topspin but I think the concern is with... hardware enabled DRM? or something like that? I think I heard about that a while back re TPM chips...