Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam
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Remember when Ubuntu was the only Linux distribution which actually cared about supporting commercial/non-free software? It was the reason why everyone switched to Ubuntu and why it's the most popular desktop distribution. Over the years, Canonical made hundreds of incredibly stupid business decisions (remember Mir, Unity, Ubuntu One, sending your desktop searches to Amazon by default?), but users still stuck with it, because it supported Steam, proprietary drivers and other stuff that people actually want to use.
4 days ago, Canonical made one stupid decision too many.
Now, it's not a weird idea to stop supporting a 32-bit version of your distribution, because who still uses old 32-bit processors? But of course, they went one step further than that and decided to purge all 32-bit libraries from their repositories. Then, they published a disingenuous/naive FAQ (see link above) which suggests that everything is alright and that you can still run all your 32-bit applications.
The first people to call bullshit were the Wine developers. As if it wasn't obvious that this would break a lot of games - even those written specifically for Linux - and commercial applications and drivers which people depend on. Today, Valve dropped this bombshell:
That's right: Even Valve has had enough and doesn't want to support Ubuntu anymore. Ubuntu desktop, formerly known as the user-friendly desktop distribution, may be officially dead.
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@dfdub upcoming IPO + unprofitable desktop business + seemingly profitable server/cloud business + Canonical spending little on development in the first place. They don't want to support 32-bit libraries (no multilib, no i686 support). The signs were all there after all.
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Still, I can't imagine the distros that are currently based on Ubuntu carrying on with their dependency from it. I predict a huge shift to a Debian base (as it should be after all).
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@admiral_p said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
upcoming IPO
They've picked a very bad time for that announcement then.
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@admiral_p said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Still, I can't imagine the distros that are currently based on Ubuntu carrying on with their dependency from it. I predict a huge shift to a Debian base (as it should be after all).
The problem with Debian is that almost all packaged are YEARS behind the upstream versions. I don't think the distros that currently use much newer releases will be so quick to downgrade.
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@Gąska said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
The problem with Debian is that almost all packaged are YEARS behind the upstream versions. I don't think the distros that currently use much newer releases will be so quick to downgrade.
Even in unstable? Isn't Ubuntu based on that?
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@Gąska I think they are purposely abandoning the desktop market. They realised that desktop (or otherwise consumer) Linux was certainly not going to be won by them, which is why they stopped developing Unity, which is why they stopped developing Mir (which was meant to be their display server for both the desktop and the phone OS), and so on. Ubuntu wants now to focus on being a virtualization solution for the cloud, full stop. If that's how they are going to pitch themselves to investors, then they are going to become much leaner.
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@dfdub AFAIK Ubuntu is several majors ahead of Debian unstable for most packages, including some very important ones (with big downstream dependency trees).
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@dfdub Ubuntu floats somewhere between unstable and testing AFAIK. Anyway I don't see any alternatives. The rpm world is relatively thin. Arch is
and it means changing tools and stuff. Debian requires you to actually support unstable or testing packages.
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@admiral_p said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
They realised that desktop (or otherwise consumer) Linux was certainly not going to be won by them, which is why they stopped developing Unity, which is why they stopped developing Mir (which was meant to be their display server for both the desktop and the phone OS), and so on.
They made many attempts to monetize their desktop distribution. And the ideas were mostly good ones. The problem was that every attempt ended up being technically inferior to the competition, buggy as hell and in general "too little, too late". It was always technical incompetence or a lack of persistence and money that made those attempts fail.
I mean, I really tried to use Ubuntu One back then, for example, but it just wasn't good software and instead of fixing it, they immediately abandoned it. They have a pattern of doing that and I cannot decide whether it's their project management or their desktop developers, but someone is clearly incompetent or otherwise they wouldn't have failed horribly that many times over the last decade.
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@dfdub said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
The problem was that every attempt ended up being technically inferior
Nice to know Windows is a superior product
ps Someone should create a poll on that.
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@admiral_p said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Still, I can't imagine the distros that are currently based on Ubuntu carrying on with their dependency from it. I predict a huge shift to a Debian base (as it should be after all).
I bet there will be 6 such debian bases within a year. I think steam might just say 'fuck it' and only support steamOS or something
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@Flips said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Nice to know Windows is a superior product
Come on! I'm pretty sure you can impersonate blakey better than that, this is barely even a rant!
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@dfdub said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
It was always technical incompetence or a lack of persistence and money that made those attempts fail.
It's the users' fault. Even though we repeatedly asked them to, they kept downloading for free instead of donating! Those selfish bastards.
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Windows 10 will soon be the best desktop linux distro available. And I'm only half kidding.
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Isn't this actually that Steam stopped supporting Ubuntu?
Ubuntu didn't specifically stop supporting Steam, just (some|all) games was a side effect of another decision.
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@loopback0 said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Isn't this actually that Steam stopped supporting Ubuntu?
After Canonical basically showed them a giant middle finger and told them they would have to support all 32-bit libraries for Ubuntu if they wanted to continue offering the same service to their users. Not directly, of course, but that's the consequence of their decisions.
I stand by what I said: Ubuntu stopped supporting the infrastructure necessary to run Steam, so it's not Valve who actually made the decision.
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@dfdub so... you ready to pay with some usage data for an OS that actually works and does what it's supposed to, without you having to do days-long blood sacrifice to The Old Gods? XD
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@sh_code said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
without you having to do days-long blood sacrifice to The Old Gods
It's a trick! There's no such option to avoid that.
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@Gąska said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@dfdub AFAIK Ubuntu is several majors ahead of Debian unstable for most packages, including some very important ones (with big downstream dependency trees).
I don't really follow version numbers of things, but I rarely, if ever, have problems installing fresh stuff outside of repos on Debian testing, and can't say I'm really missing anything in my current tool set when it comes to functionality. The only times I run into problems is when I try to install an Ubuntu-specific package, which sometimes fails, but more often than not it's not even the version number, it's Ubuntu renaming a package (
libwhatever-1.2-ubuntu1instead of justlibwhatever-1.2).
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@Onyx said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
libwhatever-1.2-ubuntu1 instead of just libwhatever-1.2
I'd assume this means it's an Ubuntu-specific fork of some kind.
Filed under: But :whywouldyoudothat:, Branded cutlery
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@Onyx said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
but more often than not it's not even the version number, it's Ubuntu renaming a package (libwhatever-1.2-ubuntu1 instead of just libwhatever-1.2)
Are you sure that's not the version number? Because it very much looks like it's part of the version number. Ubuntu usually appends
-ubuntu[0-9]+for versions which have been patched by them specifically for Ubuntu.
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@dfdub Well, yes, it's Ubuntu patches, but it's not like Debian repos have version 1.7 while Ubuntu has 3.4 with extra patches. It's the same version, just with Ubuntu fuckery on top.
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@Onyx I only replied because you claimed they were renaming the package, not appending something to the version number.
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@sh_code said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
an OS that actually works
When did they make that?
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@dfdub said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@Onyx I only replied because you claimed they were renaming the package, not appending something to the version number.
Is that not the same thing?
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I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out ... oh wait, nevermind.
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@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Nevermind!
...for a few selected packages for two years, anyway.
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@Parody said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Nevermind!
...for a few selected packages for two years, anyway.
Yeah, but it's the packages that people Steam / Wine care about. Is anyone else really interested in running a 32 bit system aside from being able to run games?
I don't know what their planning cycle is like, exactly, but would they even be thinking farther ahead than a year at this point?
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@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Is anyone else really interested in running a 32 bit system aside from being able to run games?
There were complaints in the linked thread about printer drivers and various pieces of non-game-related software. The suggested solution is always packaging it so it runs in some level of virtual machine/container/etc., but the respondents don't seem to like that solution.
I don't know enough about how it works to know what's reasonable.
I don't know what their planning cycle is like, exactly, but would they even be thinking farther ahead than a year at this point?
Supposedly they've been working on this "get rid of 32-bit" project since 2014. On the flip side, they knew about the "Steam and WINE might not work" problem a while ago and apparently
ignored itdidn't come up with an acceptable solution that was tested by actual users. Not sure what's going on in the collective's head.
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@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Yeah, but it's the packages that people Steam / Wine care about. Is anyone else really interested in running a 32 bit system aside from being able to run games?
In the Windows world, there's another pretty important reason.
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@levicki said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@Parody said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
There were complaints in the linked thread about printer drivers...
Those people must be running printers older than HP LaserJet 4 if they need 32-bit drivers for them. That would be more than 30 years old printers... shudder.
Posters brought up Brother and Canon, whose current printer drivers are 32-bit. There was also concern for other functions (scanning, for example) that are handled by other drivers and software. Feel free to read the thread if you'd like more information.
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@Groaner said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Yeah, but it's the packages that people Steam / Wine care about. Is anyone else really interested in running a 32 bit system aside from being able to run games?
In the Windows world, there's another pretty important reason.
Hmm...that's from 2009. Is that still the situation? TFA mentions porting to managed code, which probably makes sense for a zillion reasons and I kinda thought had already happened (though I haven't used VS in a long long time so I have no idea).
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@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@Groaner said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Yeah, but it's the packages that people Steam / Wine care about. Is anyone else really interested in running a 32 bit system aside from being able to run games?
In the Windows world, there's another pretty important reason.
Hmm...that's from 2009. Is that still the situation? TFA mentions porting to managed code, which probably makes sense for a zillion reasons and I kinda thought had already happened (though I haven't used VS in a long long time so I have no idea).
I'm running a 64-bit Windows 10 and Visual Studio 2019 is showing up as a 32-bit process in task manager.
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@boomzilla Signs point to yes.
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@powerlord said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@Groaner said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Yeah, but it's the packages that people Steam / Wine care about. Is anyone else really interested in running a 32 bit system aside from being able to run games?
In the Windows world, there's another pretty important reason.
Hmm...that's from 2009. Is that still the situation? TFA mentions porting to managed code, which probably makes sense for a zillion reasons and I kinda thought had already happened (though I haven't used VS in a long long time so I have no idea).
I'm running a 64-bit Windows 10 and Visual Studio 2019 is showing up as a 32-bit process in task manager.
Well, that probably means that they haven't completed the managed rewrite, which also wouldn't surprise me. Since it manages to build so much stuff, I guess there's not a huge need to get it off of 32-bits.
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@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@powerlord said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@Groaner said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@boomzilla said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Yeah, but it's the packages that people Steam / Wine care about. Is anyone else really interested in running a 32 bit system aside from being able to run games?
In the Windows world, there's another pretty important reason.
Hmm...that's from 2009. Is that still the situation? TFA mentions porting to managed code, which probably makes sense for a zillion reasons and I kinda thought had already happened (though I haven't used VS in a long long time so I have no idea).
I'm running a 64-bit Windows 10 and Visual Studio 2019 is showing up as a 32-bit process in task manager.
Well, that probably means that they haven't completed the managed rewrite, which also wouldn't surprise me. Since it manages to build so much stuff, I guess there's not a huge need to get it off of 32-bits.
Rico gave a follow-up in 2015 rehashing many of his original points. I don't know if that counts as recent enough, even though 2015 feels like last year.
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I mean, great that they realized their mistake, but why the hell are they even mentioning Spectre and Meltdown mitigations? Those work on 64-bit processors regardless of whether you're running 32-bit or 64-bit applications and pretty much nobody requested a 32-bit edition of Ubuntu. It sounds like even their developers are mixing those two things up and that's what led to this stupid decision in the first place.
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@dfdub said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
I mean, great that they realized their mistake, but why the hell are they even mentioning Spectre and Meltdown mitigations?
Hey, I just posted a link to TFA, I didn't actually RTFA!
It sounds like even their developers are mixing those two things up and that's what led to this stupid decision in the first place.
Yeah, as other people said, they've apparently had it in for 32-bits for a while, so it probably sounded like a good excuse.
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BTW: If anyone wants to play a little game of "Poe or noe", read "chanath"'s posts in the original thread. I cannot decide whether it's a 14-year-old kid who's trying very hard to miss literally every single point made in that thread or a master troll from here.
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@dfdub said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
read "chanath"'s posts in the original thread
300 disco-posts
Nah, I'm good, thanks.
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What I forgot to point out, it's really funny that they decided on basically indirectly ditching Steam/Wine just as Valve is making their great push for Steam Play with their fork of Wine called Proton which basically allows you to just hit install and play on any Windows game in Linux version of Steam and it Just Works™.
Well, it's not 100%, it probably never will be, but the speed at which compatibility is improving is staggering. It's up to the point where I just click the darned button without even researching it and only go online and search for it if I run into major problems. Many a game that didn't work at all or required major workarounds just a few months ago now just works out of the box.
Great timing, Canonical, great timing.
N.B. - not that I care that much personally, while Steam tended to mess up on Debian because of the way Valve was handling multiarch before, that now seems to be fixed and I had zero problems on Debian since I started using Buster (Debian 10, still testing but should become the stable release any time now).
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@levicki said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
@Parody said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
There were complaints in the linked thread about printer drivers...
Those people must be running printers older than HP LaserJet 4 if they need 32-bit drivers for them. That would be more than 30 years old printers... shudder.
As long as my mother can get cheap ink cartiages for her printer she probably won't replace it. The thing is about 15 years old and she still uses on a weekly bases. She'll stay on an older OS that works for her rather than move to a new one.
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The decision has been retracted.
https://ubuntu.com/blog/statement-on-32-bit-i386-packages-for-ubuntu-19-10-and-20-04-lts
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That statement is seriously whiny.
Community discussions can sometimes take unexpected turns, and this is one of those. The question of support for 32-bit x86 has been raised and seriously discussed in Ubuntu developer and community forums since 2014. That’s how we make decisions.
After the Ubuntu 18.04 LTS release we had extensive threads on the ubuntu-devel list and also consulted Valve in detail on the topic. None of those discussions raised the passions we’ve seen here, so we felt we had sufficient consensus for the move in Ubuntu 20.04 LTS.
If I were Valve, I wouldn't been "passionate" in those discussions either. And I don't think they were. My only comment would have been (similar to theirs): "Okay. If you want to desupport my dependencies, that's obviously your right, but equally obviously I would have to take my business elsewhere."
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@DogsB said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
As long as my mother can get cheap ink cartiages for her printer she probably won't replace it. The thing is about 15 years old and she still uses on a weekly bases.
I'm not suprised. Old LaserJets had a very long useful life, they weren't cheap junk like most of current printers. If you didn't need fancy color printing, they were a good long-term investment.
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@levicki said in Ubuntu has decided to no longer support Steam:
Seriously, new HP Color Laserjet network printers can be had for as low as 260€ (295€ if you also need a scanner), and black-and-white ones start from 135€. They are surely going to work just fine with any OS, have much better print quality, and be much more energy efficient than 15 years old junk people cling to just because
"it still works"it wasn't engineered to fail after 2 years or 10,000 pages, unlike newer consumer printers.Printers are now all engineered to fail after a set number of pages. Depending on model, they may either start smudging the pages or stop printing entirely, based on the print-counter. So saying that a new printer is "only $X" is disingenuous. How about saying what the printer + lifetime ink (based on engineered obsolescence page count) costs, per page?
Example of defeating engineered obsolescence:
Xerox Phaser Drum Unit Hacked, Lives To Print Another Day
Faced with a printer that would stop printing for no apparent reason, Finnish pirate and hacker [Janne] decided he had had enough. After doing a bit of research, he disassembled the drum assembly a…
