Advanced Trolly Logic
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@Mason_Wheeler On a densely packed road, maybe. On a road with a car every ten minutes or so? Nah.
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@Mason_Wheeler said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
I'm talking about adversarial input, where super subtle things, like placing a small sticker on a speed limit sign that most human drivers wouldn't even notice, cause a car to regard it instead as a stop sign, or as a speed limit sign that's 30 MPH faster than what the sign actually says.
That's nothing. There's a roadsign not far from here, that due to a vertical bend in it probably caused by it being hit by a truck, looks to the vision system on my car like it is for 100 mph faster than it really is. Fortunately, that vision system is only used to report on the dash what the car thinks the speed limit is so it's not governing any safety critical system at all, and I know that driving at 120 on a suburban street is crazy even before considering what the law says.
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@dkf I had rental with that kind of system. Only problem was that it has trouble with the way Montana does their "slower for trucks" signs. They're separate signs, so the system kept seeing the 65 mph truck speed limit after the 75 mph real speed limit and reporting that the limit was 65.
I'm glad those automated systems are not in control.
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@dkf said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
the vision system on my car
One of these days I'll offload processing to off-board hardware like the vehicle. Hasn't been necessary so far but maybe that speeding ticket is indicating otherwise...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
One of these days I'll offload processing to off-board hardware like the vehicle. Hasn't been necessary so far but maybe that speeding ticket is indicating otherwise...
The real trick there is getting a lighter foot on the gas.
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@dkf said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
One of these days I'll offload processing to off-board hardware like the vehicle. Hasn't been necessary so far but maybe that speeding ticket is indicating otherwise...
The real trick there is getting a lighter foot on the gas.
True, partially. I'm not used to having a not-gutless engine...
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@dkf I had rental with that kind of system. Only problem was that it has trouble with the way Montana does their "slower for trucks" signs. They're separate signs, so the system kept seeing the 65 mph truck speed limit after the 75 mph real speed limit and reporting that the limit was 65.
I'm glad those automated systems are not in control.
I was just in South Dakota, wondering what the heck the speed limit was because there were no signs. I did eventually find one, but it was nearly 50 miles after I got on that highway.
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@mott555 said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@dkf I had rental with that kind of system. Only problem was that it has trouble with the way Montana does their "slower for trucks" signs. They're separate signs, so the system kept seeing the 65 mph truck speed limit after the 75 mph real speed limit and reporting that the limit was 65.
I'm glad those automated systems are not in control.
I was just in South Dakota, wondering what the heck the speed limit was because there were no signs. I did eventually find one, but it was nearly 50 miles after I got on that highway.
They only need to repost it when it changes or when a major street joins in...which in SD is about never. Too many open fields with no cities.
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@Benjamin-Hall said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
They only need to repost it when it changes or when a major street joins in
You'd think so, but I entered this highway from one of the largest cities in the state. My state puts speed limit signs after every on-ramp, but clearly others are different. (In general, SD roads/exits/etc did not seem well-marked at all.)
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@mott555 said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Benjamin-Hall said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
They only need to repost it when it changes or when a major street joins in
You'd think so, but I entered this highway from one of the largest cities in the state. My state puts speed limit signs after every on-ramp, but clearly others are different. (In general, SD roads/exits/etc did not seem well-marked at all.)
If they tried to mark them appropriately, it would require the entire population to work on it. There just aren't enough people to do the job.
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Fake edit: turns out it's been posted before: https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/16677/lesser-known-trolley-problem-variations/3
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Trolley trolling.
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@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
That depends: are you a C-level executive beholden to the trolley company's shareholders?
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@Watson said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
That depends: are you a C-level executive beholden to the trolley company's shareholders?
Does it matter?
Just short sell the stock, win-win-win
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@Tsaukpaetra Well, at least no sensible person will suggest derailing that one....
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@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Tsaukpaetra Well, at least no sensible person will suggest derailing that one....
Yeah, then everyone on both sides would rush over and get friendshipped!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Tsaukpaetra Well, at least no sensible person will suggest derailing that one....
Yeah, then everyone on both sides would rush over and get friendshipped!
But think of the risk of the trolley hitting a pony!
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@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Tsaukpaetra said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Tsaukpaetra Well, at least no sensible person will suggest derailing that one....
Yeah, then everyone on both sides would rush over and get friendshipped!
But think of the risk of the trolley hitting a pony!
Having read several-hundred-million horse words, I feel confident in informing you that near-death experiences are an excellent launchpad to romances...
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@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
But think of the risk of the trolley hitting a pony!
Someone would need to decide whether to risk hitting one or risk hitting f... oh, wait...
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@loopback0 said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
But think of the risk of the trolley hitting a pony!
Someone would need to decide whether to risk hitting one or risk hitting f... oh, wait...
And I fear some unfriendly person is already working out how to hit all of them
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@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@loopback0 said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@PleegWat said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
But think of the risk of the trolley hitting a pony!
Someone would need to decide whether to risk hitting one or risk hitting f... oh, wait...
And I fear some unfriendly person is already working out how to hit all of them
Hopefully they figure it out soon.
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@Tsaukpaetra Which sort of infinity?
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@dkf said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@Tsaukpaetra Which sort of infinity?
The one involving trains, clearly.
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SMBC might win this thread:
Alt text: As far as I know, this is the first exploration of this problem from the perspective of being distracted by a cat.
Bonus cartoon
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@Tsaukpaetra so close!
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
I may have already opined somewhere that children are little monsters.
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@Mason_Wheeler I always thought the original premise was that it was impossible to stop the trolley, regardless of the objects on its path...
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@Tsaukpaetra I'm pretty sure that's the joke.
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I raise you one Prisoner's Dilemma:
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@error Ah, but you see, my character is a chaotic evil, so getting everybody else killed in just role playing!
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@error Jump off the trolley!
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@error Since this is Engineering, you quickly install Speed Racer's jump jacks so no one dies.
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@cvi said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@error Ah, but you see, my character is a chaotic evil, so getting everybody else killed in just role playing!
Actually, your character is not standing on the side but aboard the trolley (which has some remote switch on-board... it's Magic!). Gleeful DM laughter...
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Flip a coin.
No, really. The super-rational approach is to pull the lever 50% of the time, with the understanding that the other person will do likewise, so the expected outcome is one lever pulled.
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@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
Flip a coin.
No, really. The super-rational approach is to pull the lever 50% of the time, with the understanding that the other person will do likewise, so the expected outcome is one lever pulled.
That depends on whether or not the game is being played with a finite number of repeats, or infinite (given the basic assumption that once you cheat, your opponent will retaliate by cheating on the next iteration and for all subsequent iterations).
If it's a finite number of repeats, always pull the lever, because there's no penalty for pulling in the last repeat, so your opponent will definitely do it then, which means if you pull it the time before last then your opponent can't really retaliate against you since he was going to pull the lever the next time anyway. Of course, he knows you'll pull at N-1, so then he can pull for free at N-2, which you know, so you can pull for free at N-3, etc. etc. etc.
If it's an infinite number of repeats, it depends on who has the bigger gun rack in his back window.
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@izzion said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
If it's a finite number of repeats, always pull the lever, because there's no penalty for pulling in the last repeat, so your opponent will definitely do it then, which means if you pull it the time before last then your opponent can't really retaliate against you since he was going to pull the lever the next time anyway. Of course, he knows you'll pull at N-1, so then he can pull for free at N-2, which you know, so you can pull for free at N-3, etc. etc. etc.
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@izzion said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
Flip a coin.
No, really. The super-rational approach is to pull the lever 50% of the time, with the understanding that the other person will do likewise, so the expected outcome is one lever pulled.
That depends on whether or not the game is being played with a finite number of repeats, or infinite (given the basic assumption that once you cheat, your opponent will retaliate by cheating on the next iteration and for all subsequent iterations).
If it's a finite number of repeats, always pull the lever, because there's no penalty for pulling in the last repeat, so your opponent will definitely do it then, which means if you pull it the time before last then your opponent can't really retaliate against you since he was going to pull the lever the next time anyway. Of course, he knows you'll pull at N-1, so then he can pull for free at N-2, which you know, so you can pull for free at N-3, etc. etc. etc.
If it's an infinite number of repeats, it depends on who has the bigger gun rack in his back window.
My assumption that the game was being played once, simultaneously, in an infinite number of universes.
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@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@izzion said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
Flip a coin.
No, really. The super-rational approach is to pull the lever 50% of the time, with the understanding that the other person will do likewise, so the expected outcome is one lever pulled.
That depends on whether or not the game is being played with a finite number of repeats, or infinite (given the basic assumption that once you cheat, your opponent will retaliate by cheating on the next iteration and for all subsequent iterations).
If it's a finite number of repeats, always pull the lever, because there's no penalty for pulling in the last repeat, so your opponent will definitely do it then, which means if you pull it the time before last then your opponent can't really retaliate against you since he was going to pull the lever the next time anyway. Of course, he knows you'll pull at N-1, so then he can pull for free at N-2, which you know, so you can pull for free at N-3, etc. etc. etc.
If it's an infinite number of repeats, it depends on who has the bigger gun rack in his back window.
My assumption that the game was being played once, simultaneously, in an infinite number of universes.
The last person I know that did that merged themselves with their counterpart on the other side of the tracks, effectively murdering them (kinda? it's hard to explain) and then left to the next universe with their loved one in tow to the next in which they then saved their other loved ones (from the merged personality) and... fuck it gets confusing really fast...
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@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
I raise you one Prisoner's Dilemma:
That's a weird setup because if I don't pull, it makes no difference whether the other person pulls or not. Assuming I care neither about the strangers nor about the other person's folks, I would only pull if I had a reason to think the likelihood of the other person to pull was less than 1/n-1 with n being the number of my folks in the trolley. Which will usually not be the case.
It would become more of a dilemma if there weren't strangers in the middle but an equal mix of both our folks.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@izzion said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
@error said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
Flip a coin.
No, really. The super-rational approach is to pull the lever 50% of the time, with the understanding that the other person will do likewise, so the expected outcome is one lever pulled.
That depends on whether or not the game is being played with a finite number of repeats, or infinite (given the basic assumption that once you cheat, your opponent will retaliate by cheating on the next iteration and for all subsequent iterations).
If it's a finite number of repeats, always pull the lever, because there's no penalty for pulling in the last repeat, so your opponent will definitely do it then, which means if you pull it the time before last then your opponent can't really retaliate against you since he was going to pull the lever the next time anyway. Of course, he knows you'll pull at N-1, so then he can pull for free at N-2, which you know, so you can pull for free at N-3, etc. etc. etc.
If it's an infinite number of repeats, it depends on who has the bigger gun rack in his back window.
My assumption that the game was being played once, simultaneously, in an infinite number of universes.
The last person I know that did that merged themselves with their counterpart on the other side of the tracks, effectively murdering them (kinda? it's hard to explain) and then left to the next universe with their loved one in tow to the next in which they then saved their other loved ones (from the merged personality) and... fuck it gets confusing really fast...
Rick & Morty episodes often do.
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@LaoC said in Advanced Trolly Logic:
That's a weird setup because if I don't pull, it makes no difference whether the other person pulls or not. Assuming I care neither about the strangers nor about the other person's folks, I would only pull if I had a reason to think the likelihood of the other person to pull was less than 1/n-1 with n being the number of my folks in the trolley. Which will usually not be the case.
It would become more of a dilemma if there weren't strangers in the middle but an equal mix of both our folks.What if someone on the tracks has a lever they can pull to save themselves which will doom your loved ones, unless you pull your lever as well in which case it will save your loved ones but doom them?