Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness
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@PleegWat: So much wasted space. But don't worry, it's going to be fixed in the next build:
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@pie_flavor said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Bam, all three places. What were you saying again?
If he says it again, do you promise to read it?
Yeah, yeah, catching up from the holiday here. Still, this is particularly dumb.
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@Zerosquare said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
So much wasted space. But don't worry, it's going to be fixed in the next build:
I knew that it was broken mostly because I read somewhere they were fixing it. But it's one of the easier ones to demonstrate and I'm leaving open the possibility of them breaking it again in the future.
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@Zerosquare said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
wasted space.
You can just shrink the window though?
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@acrow said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
And what the hell is "Panther"?
It's where the Windows Installer logs and configs go IIRC.
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@anonymous234 said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Besides, Windows should not break apps that worked in a previous version. That's a big deal for Microsoft apparently.
Not anymore!
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@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@acrow said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Windows folder is sitting at ~10 GB.
How do you you do that? No repro.
The answer is simple, yet something nobody would choose in this day and age if the decision wasn't made for them: this tablet runs 32-bit Windows. The TF100s have a 32-bit UEFI, and you can't run 64-bit Windows with a 32-bit UEFI regardless of the hardware involved.
Yeah, that pissed me off so bad...
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@Tsaukpaetra said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Yeah, that pissed me off so bad...
It is annoying, but so far not a crippling drawback for what is currently a five year old light use device. By the time nothing is being updated but Windows itself I should be able to find a replacement for a decent price. :-)
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@Parody And you can't boot any Linux distro because the 32-bit versions don't come with an UEFI bootloader! At least that's how it was last time I tried.
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@anonymous234 said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
you can't boot any Linux distro because the 32-bit versions don't come with an UEFI bootloader!
There you go
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@anonymous234 said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Parody And you can't boot any Linux distro because the 32-bit versions don't come with an UEFI bootloader! At least that's how it was last time I tried.
Last I checked you could boot Linux, but since the major ones are 64-bit now you have to build a special boot disc/USB with a 32-bit boot setup that will work with the 64-bit installers and copy that setup to the device during the install. You also need to download special versions of some drivers and make modifications to various configuration files manually afterwards. In the end, you wind up with a device with no power management or camera and missing Bluetooth, multitouch screen, and multitouch touchpad features. Also, if you had the 32 GB version and weren't extremely careful during the partitioning process, you might not be able to reinstall Windows afterwards.
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@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
since the major ones are 64-bit now
Debian still support 32-bit (and a bunch of other)
Mint also
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@TimeBandit Modern Linux kernels even support thunking 32-bit EFI calls while running in 64-bit mode, should anyone want to do that.
Last time I checked there was a problem of finding a 32-bit EFI bootloader signed with a Secure Boot key, but my information is several years out of date as is my hardware
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@aitap Which I think was what they were describing with some of the needed boot and system mods. I don't think it changes the driver situation, though.
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@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
I don't think it changes the driver situation, though
What driver situation?
The 32-bit distro comes with the same drivers AFAIK
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@TimeBandit said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
I don't think it changes the driver situation, though
What driver situation?
The 32-bit distro comes with the same drivers AFAIK
Apparently some things don't work with this device "out of the box" and require things that aren't (normally?) included with the distributions.
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@TimeBandit said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
The 32-bit distro comes with the same drivers AFAIK
So none?
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@PleegWat said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Zerosquare said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
So much wasted space. But don't worry, it's going to be fixed in the next build:
I knew that it was broken mostly because I read somewhere they were fixing it. But it's one of the easier ones to demonstrate and I'm leaving open the possibility of them breaking it again in the future.
Calc seems to be fixed now.
(sq rt 4) - 2 gives the proper answer of 0.
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@El_Heffe (and others):
It was fixed back in April, though I don't remember if they pushed it out through the Store at the time or if it didn't go out until 1809.
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@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Wow, practically standard keybinds are now implemented, I'm thoroughly impressed!
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@Tsaukpaetra Windows 10 explorer has tabs? Having not used anything like that, I wonder if it's unnecessary, annoying, or actually useful.
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@kazitor said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Tsaukpaetra Windows 10 explorer has tabs? Having not used anything like that, I wonder if it's unnecessary, annoying, or actually useful.
Tabs are fucking incredible!
But I'm not on that version, so I can only anecdote my experience using the Chinese spyware Clover.
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@Tsaukpaetra yeah, I suppose being able to just switch back to explorer without worrying about which particular folder you were last looking at would be nice.
Reminds me of IE's absolutely horrible decision to make each tab register as a separate window on the taskbar, so you couldn't just click on it to go back. I think one way of fixing that was to change the taskbar setting to "combine when the taskbar is full."
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@kazitor said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Tsaukpaetra Windows 10 explorer has tabs? Having not used anything like that, I wonder if it's unnecessary, annoying, or actually useful.
It sort of had tabs at the time: it's actually Sets. No Sets, no tabs.
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@PleegWat said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Zerosquare said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
So much wasted space. But don't worry, it's going to be fixed in the next build:
I knew that it was broken mostly because I read somewhere they were fixing it. But it's one of the easier ones to demonstrate and I'm leaving open the possibility of them breaking it again in the future.
Raymond Chen had a series of articles about it. Basically:
: When you improve things under the hood, no one ever notices. But we've changed calculator to use arbitrary precision arithmetic instead of floating point, so 1 - 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 is actually zero.
[12 years pass]
: sqrt(4)-2 doesn't work. Didn't you say it uses arbitrary precision?
: Yes, for rational numbers. You'd need something more complex like algebraic numbers for this to work, which is pretty hard.
: You the dumb!!1
[2 years pass]
: It's fixed now.
^2
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@kazitor said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Reminds me of IE's absolutely horrible decision to make each tab register as a separate window on the taskbar, so you couldn't just click on it to go back. I think one way of fixing that was to change the taskbar setting to "combine when the taskbar is full."
Yeah, if I wanted to use different windows (which this behaves like), I'd use windows instead of tabs in the first place.
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@topspin said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
You'd need something more complex like algebraic numbers for this to work, which is pretty hard.
You wait until users start wanting to add in transcendental functions too. You can do it… but it's not for the faint-hearted at all. (Basically, kiss goodbye to performance. This is stuff you use for validating a faster but less accurate algorithm to check that you've not got some horrible cumulative error problem inside, not actual production use.)
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@dkf tries sin(1.000.000.000 * pi)
Windows
3,2374542967770832412471808025206e-29
Android
0
Google
-3.32014129e-8
Gnome
0.998
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@topspin said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
You'd need something more complex like algebraic numbers for this to work, which is pretty hard.
Algebraic operations are pretty hard indeed. Like date or string handling.
If only there was a way for programmers to package a bunch of complicated logic in one file so it could be reused in all sort of programs that do numeric calculations.
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@anonymous234 said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
If only there
waswere a way for programmers to package a bunch of complicated logic in one file so it could be reused in all sort of programs that do numeric calculations.NPM?
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@PleegWat
So… Android gets it right (probably using some sort of symbolic trickery), Windows gets creditably close, Google has a small cumulative error but (probably) isn't terrible, and Gnome is just laughably wrong.
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@dkf said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@PleegWat
So… Android gets it right (probably using some sort of symbolic trickery)Or just rounding and luck.
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@anonymous234 said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Parody And you can't boot any Linux distro because the 32-bit versions don't come with an UEFI bootloader! At least that's how it was last time I tried.
Feature, not bug
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@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
you have to build a special boot disc/USB with a 32-bit boot setup that will work with the 64-bit installers and copy that setup to the device during the install. You also need to download special versions of some drivers and make modifications to various configuration files manually afterwards. In the end, you wind up with a device with no power management or camera and missing Bluetooth, multitouch screen, and multitouch touchpad features
I'm failing to grasp how that's different to any other Linux install, except that it sounds slightly less troublesome
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@PleegWat said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Gnome
0.998
LOL WTF Gnome?
How do you implement it in the simplest way possible? Modulo, of course:
>>> (1000000000 * pi) % (2*pi) 8.926326700020581e-08 >>>> sin(8.926326700020581e-08) 8.92632670002057e-08
My guess: You had it set to degrees instead of radians. Even Gnome stuff cannot be that wrong:
>>> sin(1000000000 * pi * (pi/180)) 0.9980378982443119
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@kazitor said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Tsaukpaetra Windows 10 explorer has tabs? Having not used anything like that, I wonder if it's unnecessary, annoying, or actually useful.
Tabs are ok, split view is better. Pretty sure that's doable too, but I remember something about it being a pain last time I tried it years ago. Single location bar for both panes or something? Can't remember.
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@topspin said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
My guess: You had it set to degrees instead of radians.
Possibly. The UI for switching there is not nice and I may have been toggling the wrong thing.
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@PleegWat Yup, I think that piece of crap can't switch to radians. There's a converstion tool for converting between degrees and radians, and I thought that switched the sin &c functions as well, but it doesn't - it gets sin(pi) wrong too.
Mate calculator (which is old-fashioned and still allows access to the preferences screen gnome abolished) does return exact 0
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@PleegWat said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
The UI for switching there is not nice and I may have been toggling the wrong thing.
You should send a bug report. Since it's GNOME, they'll fix by removing support for radians entirely.
EDIT: looks like they've already implemental my proposal.
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@kazitor Libraries exist outside npm, thank god.
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@anonymous234 said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@kazitor Libraries exist outside npm, thank god.
The idea of doing arbitrary precision calculations for an algebraic number field in JS is
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@Zerosquare said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Or just rounding and luck.
Possible… but actually fairly unlikely.
I've just checked (against a reference where I know exactly what it does): the answer by Google corresponds to using standard IEEE double-precision math for everything.
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@dkf said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@PleegWat
So… Android gets it right (probably using some sort of symbolic trickery), Windows gets creditably close, Google has a small cumulative error but (probably) isn't terrible, and Gnome is just laughably wrong.I'd bet that it reads it ahead of time, figures that it's
sin(<even number>π)
, and optimizes it accordingly.Desmos actually lasts up to a hundred billion before accumulating rounding errors, and that's in JS.
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Status: Looks like WSUS auto-approved it now that the two-week-availability embargo I set up has passed!
Here we go--- Wait, is it downloading it twice?
What the crap?
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@PleegWat said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
Android
Ti calculator:
I will say I like the AMS. It's pretty damn good.
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@Tsaukpaetra
There's no x64 for the one that's downloading. It's pulling 32-bit version of the same thing and will fail during the installation, preventing the other one from starting.No, not really. But who knows these days.
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@Jaloopa said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@Parody said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
you have to build a special boot disc/USB with a 32-bit boot setup that will work with the 64-bit installers and copy that setup to the device during the install. You also need to download special versions of some drivers and make modifications to various configuration files manually afterwards. In the end, you wind up with a device with no power management or camera and missing Bluetooth, multitouch screen, and multitouch touchpad features
I'm failing to grasp how that's different to any other Linux install, except that it sounds slightly less troublesome
I'm failing to grasp where you get your Linux distros and why. My experience with installing Linux the last ~10 years has been in the line of:
- Download .iso
- Burn to disk or stick (or, since UEFI, just copy the files into the stick)
- Insert media to computer
- Boot computer
- Click Next, Next, Next, Finnish Keyboard, Next, Next, Username, Password, Next, ...Wait... Next, Finish
- Wait for reboot
- Use (or ship to relative)
- ????
- Profit
Oh, yes, installing Debian to a 32bit netbook took an extra step (between 3 and 4): Change laptop mode from UEFI to legacy BIOS (supported by all laptops I've ever come across, ever).
EDIT'd to add PS:
No, I haven't used your flowerpot extra-special distro. Only Ubuntu, Debian and Red-Hat. Because I use them for general computing, that's why.
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@acrow said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
I'm failing to grasp where you get your Linux distros
I don't. I prefer an OS that actually works
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@Jaloopa said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
@acrow said in Windoze 10 Fall 2018 Flopdate, now with even more nothingness:
I'm failing to grasp where you get your Linux distros
I don't. I prefer an OS that actually works
Like Windows?