I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@carnage said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
You must be fairly new to the profession. So unspoiled.
I'm probably naive AF.
Well, naïveté gets you through a lot of shit, and generally lends a sunnier disposition than the all out bitterness that most people seem to end up with after a decade of IT.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
How long can you hack on top of hacks everytime something breaks? This is absolute madness.
Last company I worked for did this for about 30 years. They still do.
They also use shovels and dump truck to deal with money.
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@carnage said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
the all out bitterness that most people seem to end up with after a decade of IT.
I'm cynical and bitter, and technically I'm not even in IT.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
How long can you hack on top of hacks everytime something breaks?
Pretty sure this is SOP in the banking industry, from what I've heard. Where, if you're lucky, the mainframe code is running on an emulator and not an actual mainframe.
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@scarlet_manuka said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
How long can you hack on top of hacks everytime something breaks?
Pretty sure this is SOP in the banking industry, from what I've heard.
Confirmed.
[edit]
: [...] and this is how we want feature x to integrate with our system.
: But... this violates every standard known to man!
: The what?
: It's in violation of every standard in the industry for this thing.
: So?
: It won't integrate with anything that is on the market. It won't cooperate with any library we use. It will take a mountain of effort to program around. Why did you do it that way?
: We just did.
: That doesn't make any sense, it insane. Fix it on your end.
: We never fix anything after deployment.
: WHAT!?
: 'Fixing' may introduce bugs and lead to data loss. We can't afford that. We never fix anything after deployment.
: But it's still on test server, right? You can roll it back before deployment to production.
: We don't use test servers.
: [blank_stare]
: Ok, great. So see you at the next meeting.
[/edit]
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
BUT IS THE CROSSPLATFORMZ ON LINUX AND MAC .NET DEVELOPMENT EMBRACE OPEN SOURCE MAKE LOVE WITH IT AND FUCK IT IN THE ASS
And unless I'm missing something, being cross-platform was already a selling point for .net. They made it a proper standard and everything. MS didn't directly make a Linux implementation, but there was Mono which was on par with .Net. Obviously Windows-specific APIs won't work outside Windows, but it's not like .Net Core changes that.
But suddenly .Net wasn't cross-platform, just so it could be made cross-platform again. Woo.
You could argue that it was still too monolithic and closed, like ASP.Net being tied to one implementation instead of an independent library, but that's something that you can just fix in one or two versions.
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@dkf said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@lorne-kates said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Anytime-- literally anytime-- a software company decides to "reboot" a product, it is guaranteed to be complete utter shit. The only reason it's done is because some small-dicked Chief Sociopath Officer gets into power, and since he has absolutely no talent or ability to do anything except fail upwards, he goes about tearing down everything that came before him JUST so he can make his own shit-stained mark.
Alas, no. Sometimes you have to do it because you've hit the limits of what is possible because of a bad decision taken long ago (e.g., “let's write a multi-threaded CPU-intensive application in Python!”) and the only way out is a complete rewrite in something less retarded.
I've seen the argument that it's almost always possible (and preferable) to gradually refactor from any bad product to a good one, even in cases like that. So far I haven't seen any convincing counterexamples.
For example, start by making an interoperability layer between Python code and C# or whatever you want to use next, then start porting parts of the code there.
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@lorne-kates said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Anytime-- literally anytime-- a software company decides to "reboot" a product, it is guaranteed to be complete utter shit. The only reason it's done is because some small-dicked Chief Sociopath Officer gets into power, and since he has absolutely no talent or ability to do anything except fail upwards, he goes about tearing down everything that came before him JUST so he can make his own shit-stained mark.
.NET Core isn't a "reboot", it's a new product that stands alongside the old one.
Why is there no .Net 4.x ? Because "OMG CORE IS CORE!"
Oh, so I hallucinated .NET 4.7 and the .NET 4.8 betas they've released?
What about all the meticulous backwards compatibility and forwards compatibility the .Net framework had? Fuck you, CORE OMGZ!
Sacrificed to make sure cross-platform incompatible stuff failed at compile time instead of runtime. Unfortunately people like you made them bring it back as stubs in 2.0, so now it just fails at runtime instead. Yay?
Now, with a less straight face: you're right, there will probably never be a .NET 5.x, especially now that .NET Core 3.0 is bringing in WinForms/WPF support. That just leaves WebForms as the only technology without a migration path forward, and... well, frankly, MVC is so much better that I'm okay with that.
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@unperverted-vixen said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
and the .NET 4.8 betas
What's this new thing now? Oh Come on!
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@stillwater The final version isn't due for release until 2019 (probably alongside .NET Core 3.0), they're just getting the prerelease train rolling early.
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@unperverted-vixen I'm getting the impression these guys want to one up the Angular team in getting new versions out.
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@stillwater It's about two years between "major" point releases (4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8). Hardly encroaching on Angular's whiplash-inducing schedule.
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@unperverted-vixen said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater It's about two years between "major" point releases (4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8). Hardly encroaching on Angular's whiplash-inducing schedule.
I'm talking about .NET Core. The release cycle is equally whiplash inducing. I'm waiting for .NET Core to catch up with regular .NET and we'll have .NET Core 4.2, .NET 5.2 and .NET Standard 3.4 or whatever and the shit's gonna really hit the fan in a few years.
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@stillwater .NET Standard and .NET Core are numbered in sync. I think you're waiting for 2021, when .NET Core 5.0 is due, and full framework will be either dead or releasing 4.10.
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@carnage said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@carnage said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
You must be fairly new to the profession. So unspoiled.
I'm probably naive AF.
Well, naïveté gets you through a lot of shit, and generally lends a sunnier disposition than the all out bitterness that most people seem to end up with after a decade of IT.
Guess I'm still progressing... I'm in the highly cynical stage.
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
TIL that can be a thing.
You ever heard of the Peter Principle, or the related Dilbert Principle?
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@mrl More effort to program around = more $.
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@carnage said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@carnage said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
You must be fairly new to the profession. So unspoiled.
I'm probably naive AF.
Well, naïveté gets you through a lot of shit, and generally lends a sunnier disposition than the all out bitterness that most people seem to end up with after a decade of IT.
But less money.
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
TIL that can be a thing.
You ever heard of the Peter Principle, or the related Dilbert Principle?
Failing upwards looks like it is sufficiently different from Peter principle.
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@gąska Yeah well being naive but a manipulative asshole in short bursts can get you more money now and then. If you're going for the full time manipulative asshole mode, that's cool too I suppose.
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@cartman82 said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Everyone is always talking how great it is that MS is developing NET/C# in the open, but nobody's saying how crappy job they're doing.
Now we see how the Microsoft sausage is made.
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
If you've lived your entire life in a toilet bowl, you're going to be real excited to see a cleaner toilet bowl. If you're anybody else, you look and just see a big turd floating around.
Oh, that's why some people love Win10
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@gąska Yeah well being naive but a manipulative asshole in short bursts can get you more money now and then. If you're going for the full time manipulative asshole mode, that's cool too I suppose.
What if you're going for the full time forum asshole mode? How often does that get you more money? Paging @Lorne-Kates!
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
If you don't mind me asking. Are you on .NET Core 1.x or 2.x?
We keep up to date with the 2.x versions.
If it's the latter how do you manage updates and patches without messing up things?
Quite well, thank you. :P
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@masonwheeler That's very encouraging. It's indeed "production" ready. Interesting.
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I'm not sure what this says about .NET...
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@benjamin-hall Code snippet from the post.
public void Configure(IApplicationBuilder app)
{
app.UseSession();
app.UsePhp(new PhpRequestOptions(scriptAssemblyName: "peachweb"));
app.UseDefaultFiles();
app.UseStaticFiles();
}
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@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Why? Because it's awesome.
Which one? WordPress? NuGet? .NET Core? PHP?
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@ben_lubar said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Why? Because it's awesome.
Which one? WordPress? NuGet? .NET Core? PHP?
To be clear, that's not me saying that. From what I know, WordPress is a very widely used pile of insecurities and s, same with PHP. This thread is about the strange behavior of .NET Core, and I've heard complaints about NuGet. So... All of them? None of them? Some of them but not others, depending on the time of day and the inclination of Alpha Centauri V at the surface of Mars at dawn on the third Thursday of December in a year that is not divisible by 3?
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@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
To be clear, that's not me saying that.
That's why I put the extra
>
in.
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@ben_lubar said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
To be clear, that's not me saying that.
That's why I put the extra
>
in.I just wanted to be extra sure. Toby faire, it's an interesting idea. But something about chaining languages like that feels... fragile.
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@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
chaining languages
You're only chaining two languages. That's basically the same as TypeScript or Jython or any interpreter.
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@ben_lubar said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
chaining languages
You're only chaining two languages. That's basically the same as TypeScript or Jython or any interpreter.
But the templates and plugins for a complex system are effectively another language. It's APIs all the way down.
I did say I wasn't sure what to make of it, though. That's well outside my normal programming wheelhouse.
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@ben_lubar said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Why? Because it's awesome.
Which one? WordPress? NuGet? .NET Core? PHP?
I am in awe that someone would do this.
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@benjamin-hall said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
To be clear, that's not me saying that. From what I know, WordPress is a very widely used pile of insecurities and s, same with PHP.
A lot of them specifically have to do with PHP's nature as a scripting language, which is dealt with here:
There's no PHP files which is a nice security bonus - not only are you running from the one assembly but there's no text files for any rogue plugins to modify or corrupt.
That's actually pretty cool!
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@masonwheeler said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
There's no PHP files which is a nice security bonus - not only are you running from the one assembly but there's no text files for any rogue plugins to modify or corrupt.
Our wordPress servers never have write access to the file system, except the wp-upload folder.
Same with every PHP or other webserver we have.The downside is that you can't use WordPress's (or other) built-in update mechanism, you do it manually.
Giving a webserver write access to the file system is the Real
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@timebandit said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
The downside is that you can't use WordPress's (or other) built-in update mechanism, you do it manually.
And given how frequently WordPress and its various plugins need updates, this is a significant downside.
Giving a webserver write access to the file system is the Real
This is why we can't have nice things.
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@masonwheeler said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
And given how frequently WordPress and its various plugins need updates, this is a significant downside.
Giving your webserver write access is a MAJOR downside.
And git pull is not hard to type
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@timebandit said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
And git pull is not hard to type
It's also not all you need to do. Some updates come with database changes, for example. And git pull's changes aren't atomic on the file system, which means you need to take the site offline for maintenance, and then re-enable it.
You know... all the little details that the auto-update handles for you?
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@lorne-kates said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
What about the millions of hours of learning that went into making the framework-- and all the hundreds of thousands of "lessons learned" and "roadblocks discovered" the .Net team went through
I reaaaaallly hope they don't throw most of it away.
Take a look at all the mistakes they've made so far with breaking compatibility, breaking usability between versions, and so on and so forth. Think about how .Net 1.1-4.x already solved those problems.
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@masonwheeler said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
You know... all the little details that the auto-update handles for you?
Here's the solution : https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/upgrade-wordpress-core-command-line-wp-cli/
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@timebandit said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
And git pull is not hard to type
It's not hard to type. It's virtually impossible to discover.
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
It's virtually impossible to discover.
You can't read the manual?
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@stillwater said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Failing upwards looks like it is sufficiently different from Peter principle.
Failing upwards: is "Hi, I'm a sociopath, aka C*O. My pay is based on bonuses for arbitrary metrics that have nothing to do with reality. So I will just focus every project on achieving that metric, even if it ruins literally everything else. If there's a way of cultivating an ecosystem to produce these metrics in the long term-- or just tearing down everything and shredding it to achieve the metric in the short term-- slash and burn it is! I'll hit my metric, get my bonus, then get to say my project was a 'success'. Thus I will get more projects and more bonuses and promotions!"
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@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
the related Dilbert Principle?
Oh is that the one where you get to be a revered public figure for your creations, then you pivot to use that platform for spouting insane racist, misogynist bullshit to millions of people?
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@lorne-kates said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
Oh is that the one where you get to be a revered public figure for your creations, then you pivot to use that platform for spouting insane racist, misogynist bullshit to millions of people?
No; that's usually known as the Orson Scott Card strategy.
Scott Adams is a huge fan though.
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@timebandit said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
It's virtually impossible to discover.
You can't read the manual?
<blakeyrant>There shouldn't need to be a manual. Everything any application can ever do must be both possible and discoverable from the simple, intuitive GUI. This must always be true, even when the things the application needs to do are complex, counterintuitive, mode-dependent, and require privileged access.</blakeyrant>
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@timebandit said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
@blakeyrat said in I'm done with MS and their .NET Core Bullshit:
It's virtually impossible to discover.
You can't read the manual?
RTFM, seriously? Have you ever tried reading those man pages?
Also, how would you know which man page you need if you're new to Git?
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@jbert I'd prefer to read woman pages, but no one can understand them either.
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