Initiative Q - Money from nowhere?
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
I learned to stop worrying and love the Sprawl when I realized that new construction is still miles further from the city than I am, and my property's value should go up, up, up in response.
I hope you live in CA - or have a Prop13-like thing. Or your property taxes will go up the same way!
The state I live in doesn't have an initiative system. But even so, there's still plenty of overpriced real estate closer to the city for idiots to purchase. For example, there's a < 5 year old townhouse near where I work that's listed in the mid to high 900's. At those prices, one could buy three of my house and have change left over.
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@sockpuppet7 said in Money from nowhere?:
@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
and my property's value should go up, up, up in response.
If all property goes up, the cost of moving to a better one increases. It's only good when it's just yours that's going up.
It depends. What if I were to choose to blow this popsicle stand in 30 years and move to somewhere with a lower cost of living?
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
and my property's value should go up, up, up in response.
Which is meaningless (and possibly counterproductive, as it causes your taxes to rise) unless you plan on selling the place.
Property taxes account for maybe a fifth of my monthly payment. I believe they are also deductible come income tax time.
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
- 580 means going thru Oakland. Traffic sucks.
I've never really had trouble on 580. Traffic doesn't condense to a thickness I'm accustomed to unless I get on 880 and drive south for an hour, to arrive during the peak of rush hour.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Yes.
This reply from a guy who works for a company that is giving away (potentially) $50K in their currency to anyone with an email address?
Oh the ironing.
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@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
It's not my anarcho-capitalist wet dream.
I meant impersonal "your!"
Bitcoin is still retarded. I'm just saying that it was a good idea at all, and remains in use, entirely because of its guaranteed lack of centralization.
On paper, at least, until that centralization becomes à la Central Committee.
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
I'm sorry so how does the "belief" get converted into hard currency exactly? Gonna need you to connect the dots here.
I don't see how having 40,000 people "believe" they have $50,000 gets me any closer to my $50,000.That's actually basic economic theory. Money, by definition, is whatever people believe money is. If I had a bunch of sand and I could convince everyone that it was a valid store of value and medium of exchange, then it would become one because we'd start using it as one.
But you couldn't because there is essentially no scarcity to sand.
There doesn't seem to be any scarcity with this stuff either. You get 50K of them just for having an email address.
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@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
Now, if you guys do have a detailed plan for that and don't want to disclose it for obvious reasons, that's great. More power to you. But I would think if you had solved the hard problems already, you'd be taking a different approach than hypotheticals.
...HyperLoop?
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@masonwheeler Well ok and I get that dealing in cryptos, but the problem is: $50,000?
That's pretty straightforward: they give you 50,000 Q, and then convince everyone that 1 Q has a value of $1, and at that point it becomes true as per the definition of money.
That's a lot of handwaving there in the middle.
Hey, now we know where you are working! InitiativeQ!!
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@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
Property taxes account for maybe a fifth of my monthly payment.
Yeah, and that will go up if your "property value" goes up.
I believe they are also deductible come income tax time.
That doesn't mean what it intuitively sounds like it means. "Tax deductions" never actually come anywhere near break-even in terms of overall money spent.
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
Yeah, and that will go up if your "property value" goes up.
Oh well. If taxes get so high so that nobody can afford the monthly payment, what do you think will happen to property values?
That doesn't mean what it intuitively sounds like it means. "Tax deductions" never actually come anywhere near break-even in terms of overall money spent.
It's always nice to get back more money than you were expecting. Better than nothing.
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@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
It depends. What if I were to choose to blow this popsicle stand in 30 years and move to somewhere with a lower cost of living?
That's my plan. But in less than 10y at this point! (Tho, I'm starting to wonder if I could retire on how much my house would sell for now... )
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
In the cases I've found myself needing to cross the Golden Gate Bridge, a combination of 680 and the Bay Bridge has worked well.
If you do it right, you can avoid paying any tolls at all.
- North on the GG
Didn't the toll used to be northbound?
- South on 580
I often do that when heading to a show in the north bay (from the south bay). Both routes have minuses: - GG means going thru SF (usually on 19th Ave). Surface streets suck.
I'm all too familiar with that. See the rant I posted Sunday (I think). I'm not sure if 19th Ave. is worse than others, but Van Ness/Lombard at least seems slightly less frustrating to me. Of course, 101 through downtown to get to Van Ness sucks hard. But the entirety of SF sucks hard.
- 580 means going thru Oakland. Traffic sucks.
I'm not terribly familiar with 580, but once you get into Oakland and head south on 880, the traffic seems to depend on the time of day more than some areas that are horrible all the time. There's a tiny chance of getting through Oakland without terrible traffic (if you travel between 0200 and 0400), as long as you're not trying to get to the Bay Bridge. As you no doubt know, there's at least a 50% chance that the heat death of the universe will occur before you get through the toll plaza.
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@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
- 580 means going thru Oakland. Traffic sucks.
I've never really had trouble on 580. Traffic doesn't condense to a thickness I'm accustomed to unless I get on 880 and drive south for an hour, to arrive during the peak of rush hour.
Specifically, one area: I80. Once I'm on 880, it's good. I'm also usually coming thru Sun evening. When the entire bay area returns from weekending.
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@dcon Goddamned you guys are good at taking interesting threads and talking about REALLY BORING things inside of them.
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@hardwaregeek said in Money from nowhere?:
I'm not sure if 19th Ave. is worse than others, but Van Ness/Lombard at least seems slightly less frustrating to me.
Not when you're pulling a trailer!
But the entirety of SF sucks hard.
Yeah - who thought this was a good idea:
- Major highway on the south
- Major highway on the north
- Fuck it. We'll connect those with regular city streets!
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pulling a trailer!
Why would I ever do that? That's a crazy idea, no matter what street you take.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@dcon Goddamned you guys are good at taking interesting threads and talking about REALLY BORING things inside of them.
Well, there's not much we can really do until Ben V27.0 comes back.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@hardwaregeek said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
VISA don't need us to tell them about it. They already know how to do it, but they can't, because it requires building a new network from scratch, and they don't know how to get everyone to move to the new payment network.
That seems improbable. ISTM that if a payment processor with the reputation and clout of VISA told their merchants, "We're setting up a new network that's more secure and with lower fees," there would be a stampede to the new network. Customers would be forced to move, because eventually the old one would stop working.
Why would there be a stampede? What's the rush? Every seller will wait to see that others are moving, before making the investment.
...you don't see how that makes your plan problematic? Not like Social Justice "problematic". Really real problematic.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@kian said in Money from nowhere?:
Ultimately, I don't know if anyone has said this before yet, but if you have an idea for such an amazing payment system, why bother with the new currency at all? VISA and Mastercard handle all kinds of currencies, and you can largely use one credit card with one currency in any place, with the card and banks dealing with the conversions for you. The rates aren't always great, but they're not awful either.
These are two completely separate issues. You don't need a new currency to make a payment system. A good payment system would work with any currencies transparently.
Of course, but having a payment network with an exclusive currency is what allows us to get wide adoption.
No. Those two are diametrically opposed.
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@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@dcon Goddamned you guys are good at taking interesting threads and talking about REALLY BORING things inside of them.
And you're great at remarking on it!
We're all good at something.
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
I hope you live in CA - or have a Prop13-like thing. Or your property taxes will go up the same way!
They will, but they tend to lag behind a bit. And they're public knowledge, so anyone who cares can appeal their assessment with the "how is my shanty valued more than that megamansion?!" argument.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@stillwater said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq Ben, How do you have time to be on a forum like this when you're trying to get a product off the ground. If anything, Mad respect for time management skills.
This is the first forum to discuss Q (remember we haven't officially launched yet, just sent the link to a few friends), so it's a great way for us to collect feedback.
My feedback is that it's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. All of the worthlessness of cryptocurrencies, with none of the independence and guarantees.
Read the Crypto section in https://initiativeq.com/FAQ
The ideas is to provide independence and guarantees from governance rather than cryptography (like governments do), and that allows you to build a currency that anyone can use without constantly fearing their life savings can be erased any minute.One question: Do you have any economists on the payroll? If so who are they so we can look up their credentials?
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@carnage said in Money from nowhere?:
@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@stillwater said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq Ben, How do you have time to be on a forum like this when you're trying to get a product off the ground. If anything, Mad respect for time management skills.
This is the first forum to discuss Q (remember we haven't officially launched yet, just sent the link to a few friends), so it's a great way for us to collect feedback.
Oh yes, this forum is great for feedback.
Well, you get pretty candid feedback, and any flaws (real or otherwise) with your ideas pointed out very thoroughly. :D
What I got so far is valuable. No complaints.
I had not got to the thread yet. Just wait.
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@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@stillwater said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq Ben, How do you have time to be on a forum like this when you're trying to get a product off the ground. If anything, Mad respect for time management skills.
This is the first forum to discuss Q (remember we haven't officially launched yet, just sent the link to a few friends), so it's a great way for us to collect feedback.
My feedback is that it's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. All of the worthlessness of cryptocurrencies, with none of the independence and guarantees.
Read the Crypto section in https://initiativeq.com/FAQ
The ideas is to provide independence and guarantees from governance rather than cryptography (like governments do), and that allows you to build a currency that anyone can use without constantly fearing their life savings can be erased any minute.No. Their life savings (assuming this becomes popular) can absolutely be erased any minute. All you have to do is shut down the servers and say 'fun while it lasted, smell you later'. There may be an uphill battle because cryptocurrency is independent of governments, but it's also independent of everyone else. Whereas with Q, Q remains the authority. If they say you don't have money, you don't have money. If they say you have money, you have money. Your account exists entirely on their whims. Whereas cryptocurrency is built on blockchain and therefore all transactions are publicly verifiable and more importantly the public verification is part of the transactions existing in the first place.
You say you solve the same problems as banks, but in the end banks still deal in good old ¤. It can't count as thievery to say 'actually you have less internet bucks now' until you verifiably own it in the first place, and that's not possible with internet bucks. Blockchain solved that by making it impossible for anyone to steal without having majority control over the network.To be quite fair, that is no different than any bank or government.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@stillwater said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq Ben, How do you have time to be on a forum like this when you're trying to get a product off the ground. If anything, Mad respect for time management skills.
This is the first forum to discuss Q (remember we haven't officially launched yet, just sent the link to a few friends), so it's a great way for us to collect feedback.
My feedback is that it's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. All of the worthlessness of cryptocurrencies, with none of the independence and guarantees.
Read the Crypto section in https://initiativeq.com/FAQ
The ideas is to provide independence and guarantees from governance rather than cryptography (like governments do), and that allows you to build a currency that anyone can use without constantly fearing their life savings can be erased any minute.No. Their life savings (assuming this becomes popular) can absolutely be erased any minute. All you have to do is shut down the servers and say 'fun while it lasted, smell you later'. There may be an uphill battle because cryptocurrency is independent of governments, but it's also independent of everyone else. Whereas with Q, Q remains the authority. If they say you don't have money, you don't have money. If they say you have money, you have money. Your account exists entirely on their whims. Whereas cryptocurrency is built on blockchain and therefore all transactions are publicly verifiable and more importantly the public verification is part of the transactions existing in the first place.
You say you solve the same problems as banks, but in the end banks still deal in good old ¤. It can't count as thievery to say 'actually you have less internet bucks now' until you verifiably own it in the first place, and that's not possible with internet bucks. Blockchain solved that by making it impossible for anyone to steal without having majority control over the network.Everything you said applies to every bank, payment provider, PayPal etc. Q is not unique in that aspect. Governance and law are what protects the account owners, and it's currently much more reliable than cryptocurrencies - many people lost their bitcoins. Few lose the money in their bank account.
We, however, have a dedicated currency, and that could be manipulated the same way irresponsible governments fund their expenses by printing money. That's why we will give away that right to an independent committee chosen by all Q stakeholders....there are no words. Fucking hell...
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@polygeekery Nope. It's a crime to fuck up banking to where you don't have your money anymore, and banks are FDIC insured even if it does happen. It is possible with a government, but I put it at a much lower chance of a government failing than Initial Q.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
Of course, but having a payment network with an exclusive currency is what allows us to get wide adoption.
My opinion is it's exactly opposite. As a consumer, why should I put any trust in an exclusive currency? Cryptocurrencies have tried - I have less than zero trust in them! (We have several threads in the forum about the massive practically-daily breaches they keep incurring)
Because you could go buy bread with it, and you could sell it to the Q monetary committee for US$. See more in the Economic Model page.
When? Why do stores have any incentive to use your system when your currency is worthless? You are skipping about eleventy billion steps in the process.
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@polygeekery said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@carnage said in Money from nowhere?:
@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@stillwater said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq Ben, How do you have time to be on a forum like this when you're trying to get a product off the ground. If anything, Mad respect for time management skills.
This is the first forum to discuss Q (remember we haven't officially launched yet, just sent the link to a few friends), so it's a great way for us to collect feedback.
Oh yes, this forum is great for feedback.
Well, you get pretty candid feedback, and any flaws (real or otherwise) with your ideas pointed out very thoroughly. :D
What I got so far is valuable. No complaints.
I had not got to the thread yet. Just wait.
I'm glad you stumbled upon it. Much awaits.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
I'm sorry you don't like it, but that is exactly the vision: After you get to critical mass, get the world's top talent to design the ideal payment network, and have them focus on functionality and efficiency, rather than "how do I get users to adopt it, even though no one is using it yet".
Can I have some of what you are on?
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@mrl said in Money from nowhere?:
@e4tmyl33t said in Money from nowhere?:
something that's JUST an idea
That's the funniest part: there is no idea.
There's an idea. There just isn't a plan to achieve it. @boomzilla got the closest so far.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
We're not aiming to replace every single financial transaction in the world. Just to be the best solution for most.
How? Your level of handwaving makes the HyperLoop chaps jealous.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of time.
Your idea is pants-on-head retarded, but I love that you are already giving blakey a raft of shit. Keep it up.
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
If they push too much, sellers will abandon.
Right; but don't worry, they're 100% loyal to these Q people!!!!!
After all, VISA has only been propping up their business for 30 years. But these Q guys ran a pyramid scheme!
If and when the Q network is launched, there is already critical mass. That's the point.
Dude, this handwaving could power China.
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
@blakeyrat said in Money from nowhere?:
But I remind you again, step 1 is: "associate our brand with a giant pyramid scheme that lies to people about how much money they'll ever get from it".
See, this is why so many people don't respect your arguments on here.
a giant pyramid scheme
A pyramid scheme is a system where, for example, you pay me $5 in order to gain the right to get a bunch of other people to pay you $5. That's not happening here; if you sign up with someone's link, it doesn't cost you anything, and if someone else signs up with your link, they don't pay you for it. Instead, Initiative Q is "paying" everyone directly, essentially making an investment in building out a network of people who are interested in using the Q payment network.
that lies to people about how much money they'll ever get from it
Seems to me they're completely up-front about it: they'll get a specific amount of Q, which will eventually be worth $1 each if they manage to get the system established. Where's the lie?
....is there a bugfuck insane idea that you won't swallow like a street sweeper?
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
This is true. It's also not representative of what's actually going on here. Some seems to have told you a bunch of wild promises are being made that were never actually made. I find the discussion of this system to be quite straightforward and sober on the subject of this being a non-guaranteed venture that's likely to take several years to come to fruition.
Like the HyperLoop?
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@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
@hardwaregeek said in Money from nowhere?:
@initiativeq said in Money from nowhere?:
After you get to critical mass, get the world's top talent to design the ideal payment network
Visa, MasterCard, et al. already have the critical mass and the talent. What makes you think you can do better?
They have critical mass for their current network. If they want to build a new one, no one will come.
Why not? They have the backing, the brand recognition, the infrastructure, the marketing, the clout, the track record...I could go on and on. Stop the hand waving, give me a reason they couldn't. What would stop them, if you start to show momentum, from just doing what you are doing with their trillions of dollars in transactions and squashing you like a bug?
Nothing.
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@lorne-kates said in Money from nowhere?:
@lorne-kates said in Money from nowhere?:
I hereby agree and recognize that Q's are worth $1USD. That is now consensus. If you do not release Blakey's funds immediately, I will be in touch with the SEC and FBI.
Can this be the fastest we've turned a "Hi I'm From X" person salty?
It's not him. It's @masonwheeler.
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@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
and my property's value should go up, up, up in response.
Which is meaningless (and possibly counterproductive, as it causes your taxes to rise) unless you plan on selling the place.
You really don't know how economics works.
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@dcon said in Money from nowhere?:
so they know you're in the US
You shut your goddamn filthy mother-shitting mouth and take that back.
:maple-leaf:
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@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@polygeekery Nope. It's a crime to fuck up banking to where you don't have your money anymore, and banks are FDIC insured even if it does happen. It is possible with a government, but I put it at a much lower chance of a government failing than Initial Q.
Most of our money is 1's and 0's now. If your bank fucks it up and your money vanishes in to the ether...how would you prove it?
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@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
Now, if you want the best and brightest, you're probably going to want to pay around $200k salaries, if not higher. How long exactly is it going to take this crack team to build this perfect system?
It's okay they'll pay them in Qs. If they run low on funds, they'll just make more!
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@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@lorne-kates I think I figured out who's downvoting you, and it isn't @initiativeq. Paging @Polygeekery, you have experience in dealing with this
Caught between a "I'll down vote you mom" comment, and not wanting another down vote myself
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@polygeekery said in Money from nowhere?:
@pie_flavor said in Money from nowhere?:
@polygeekery Nope. It's a crime to fuck up banking to where you don't have your money anymore, and banks are FDIC insured even if it does happen. It is possible with a government, but I put it at a much lower chance of a government failing than Initial Q.
Most of our money is 1's and 0's now. If your bank fucks it up and your money vanishes in to the ether...how would you prove it?
By keeping records. It's effort, but you can.
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@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
@masonwheeler said in Money from nowhere?:
Yeah, and that will go up if your "property value" goes up.
Oh well. If taxes get so high so that nobody can afford the monthly payment, what do you think will happen to property values?
Nothing. Then the property will go into default, the back will foreclose and seize it, and sell it to some rich asshole. Repeat until the entire housing market crashes, taking the economy with it.
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@groaner said in Money from nowhere?:
Some local toll roads also have dynamic pricing and only offer the vaguest of rationalizations as to why a ten mile trip should cost twenty bucks or more.
It's not vague at all. They have a contractual obligation to keep speeds at a minimum level. When speeds drop they have to raise the tolls.
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@polygeekery said in Money from nowhere?:
But you couldn't because there is essentially no scarcity to sand.
There is, actually, but only in giant quantities. And/or unique properties.
Also, like real estate, location is a major factor.
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@benjamin-hall said in Money from nowhere?:
@stillwater said in Money from nowhere?:
time
Something something spider fly parlor.