Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...
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@rhywden said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
If you have a dual extruder then you can use water-soluble plastics for support structures.
Hmm... this is something I haven't heard of before. How does it work? You just take the finished model out and stick it in the bathtub for a few hours?
Also, what happens if the support plastic has a different melting point (particularly a lower one) than the model plastic?
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@masonwheeler PVA is supposed to have about the same melting temperature as PLA. I've never dealt with it since I don't have a dual extruder printer.
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Something like this is likely to be my first 3D printer.
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@boomzilla said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
Something like this is likely to be my first 3D printer.
I assumed it would be:
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@masonwheeler said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
I've had one notable build fail. I got home from work yesterday, 2 days into a 5-day build, and found that one of the build plate clips had come free, causing the plate to slip an inch or so, which ruined the build. I'm looking into what can cause this and how to fix it, and will start over tomorrow when the new filament arrives. But other than that, I've really enjoyed working with it.
Once I got the filament, I restarted the build, with additional binder clips to hold the plate in place. After a couple days, it failed again in a new way, and I think I know what went wrong now. The extruder started striking the model during certain movements, until it got peeled off of the raft and knocked out of alignment. (I assume that, had the reinforcement clips not been there, it would have knocked the plate loose instead.)
Two failures at about the same stage of progress means there's something going wrong at that specific point. So either the slicing tool is generating bad gcode, or this brand new, very expensive printer has some problem with its Z movement and isn't moving down as far as it needs to be.
Anyone know how I figure out which one it is and what to do about it?
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@mott555 Knowing about this is making me really regret not buying a dual-extruder. In retrospect.
"Removing supports" seems to be like 90% of the challenge in getting a good print.
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In other news, I'm now having this problem:
The plastic comes out "globby" and then the printhead passes too close over it and it sticks to the print head and from there on out it's just glob over glob. I've tried this model 4 times now, running z calibration, temp. calibration, and it just won't print.
Any tips?
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@blakeyrat If it helps, the model I'm trying to print is this one: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2901355
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@blakeyrat On a hunch I thought maybe the black filament might be the problem, so I switch to silver. Nope:
Exact same problem.
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@mott555 said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
I can't recommend a brand yet because I haven't done enough experimentation,
From personal experience and interacting with customers, the in-house Inland brand sold by us at MicroCenter is pretty good. If you live near one, of course.
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@blakeyrat Ok I think the key here is to do the "live Z adjust" and crank it down until you're thinking "HOLY SHIT is that gonna scratch the steel plate????"
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@sloosecannon I think the nearest Microcenter is 2000 miles away from me. Give or take a few hundred.
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@blakeyrat On my printer, that usually means either the bed isn't leveled properly, or my glue stick treatment on the glass print bed needs to be cleaned off and re-applied.
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@blakeyrat said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@blakeyrat Ok I think the key here is to do the "live Z adjust" and crank it down until you're thinking "HOLY SHIT is that gonna scratch the steel plate????"
Actually, that's the wrong way to do it. Too far away is not good for the first layer but too close isn't good either.
Basically what you need is a model for a square (say, 5 cm by 5 cm) which is just one layer high. You begin printing that one and then adjust the "live Z" in 0.05 mm steps. For each step you let it print for a while - each square should be adjusted 4 times max or you won't be able to see the difference.
You then take the value which results in the most even layer. Ideally the bottom layer should look like this:
If your live Z value is lower than -1.0 mm then there might be something wrong with the assembly of your printer. Mine is at -0.55 mm
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@rhywden I did the built in tester like a half-dozen times and it came out perfect each time. The value is -0.975, which is close to your "something is wrong" value but the thing was assembled at the factory, so I'm not yanking it apart.
The rectangle always came out great. I'll run it again in a few minutes and photograph it. I mean I see all these photographs of what it "should" look like, but I don't know what I'm looking for in those photos. (For example, in yours, why the weird gap between the border of the square and the filling?) Just saying "it should look like this!" isn't that helpful.
But if I set it less than about -0.95-ish, when the print head does the 90 degree turns during the first layer calibration, the filament will come unstuck.
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@blakeyrat said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
(For example, in yours, why the weird gap between the border of the square and the filling?) Just saying "it should look like this!" isn't that helpful.
What I mean are those perfect diagonal lines with no irregular gaps in between.
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@rhywden Yeah but you got those blobs at the corner, every time the print head does a 180. Is that desirable?
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@blakeyrat said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@rhywden Yeah but you got those blobs at the corner. Is that desirable?
Those are normal and unavoidable.
For your "it gets loose" problem: Try raising the temperature of your bed. I had to set mine to 70 °C for PLA for example.
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@rhywden said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
For your "it gets loose" problem: Try raising the temperature of your bed.
Yeah that's actually my next step to try.
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@rhywden said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
I recommend using PETG as plastic material instead of PLA if you want to take things further.
I've seen people who have done it using nylon. It's apparently even more of a pain than PETG due to the high temperatures required, but produces a good result as it holds a complex structure well once set. I was told that the cheapest brand of weed whacker cable is best, as it's vastly available and has no silica mixed in that would break the nozzle…
I've also seen 3D printed titanium parts. Those are definitely something else, as they need a fancy inert atmosphere, high but controlled temperature furnace, and lasers for the sintering and temperature monitoring. Or something like that. :smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes:
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@gąska said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
the question is, whether it's still a good idea if you include the price of printer itself.
GE use 3D printing to make critical parts for jet engines (the fuel injectors). They must think it is worthwhile…
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@hardwaregeek said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
toxic, carcinogenic
You're in California, yes?
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@dkf Yes. But a few things, like chlorinated solvents and dioxane, are carcinogenic in other parts of the world, too.
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@blakeyrat said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
when the print head does the 90 degree turns during the first layer calibration, the filament will come unstuck.
Can you adjust the print speed on the first layer? IIRC mine defaults to about half of the normal print speed for this very reason. After the first layer it goes back up to normal speed.
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@mott555 said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
Can you adjust the print speed on the first layer?
Yeah but it's all manual. You're right, that what I've been doing is slowing the first few layers to 75% or 67% speed and that helps adhesion a lot. (Also turning up the bed temperature from Prusa's default of 60c to 70c seems to help for PLA at least.)
I suppose if I really dug into the slicing software I could find out how to change the speed on just the first couple layers.
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@dkf said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
I've also seen 3D printed titanium parts.
I'm having trouble finding the story now, but several years ago (2013-ish) I read about a Scandanavian woman who had a severe bone growth disorder that was causing her skull to continue to grow thicker even after she was an adult. It would have killed her, but they did a remarkable thing: they took a 3D scan of her head, 3D printed a titanium prosthetic skull, and then surgically removed her skull and replaced it with the prosthetic, and now she's living a normal life as an ordinary, productive member of society... with a titanium skull.
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So I finally found out the underlying cause of a lot of my 3D printing woes: turns out the model was inside out! For whatever reason, all of the faces were pointing inward instead of outward, so the software was having a lot of trouble generating support, and it kept trying to print in the air.
I restarted the build this morning with proper support structures finally added. I really hope this works this time...
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@masonwheeler said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
normal life ... titanium skull.
I'll bet going through airport security is fun.
Seriously, though, that's pretty cool.
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@masonwheeler could be this one (not complete skull)
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@coldandtired said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@masonwheeler could be this one (not complete skull)
Wrong country, wrong medical problem, and about 2 years later. That's really cool that the technology is seeing more widespread adoption, but it's not the case I'm thinking of.
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Print a Bitcoin with it. nononon make a BUSINESS out of printing Bitcoins.
"Worried about theft of Bitcoins from your wallets and exchanges? Want to keep the coins safe and secure in your possession, so no hacker can touch them? Send me your Bitcoin, and I will print you a physical Bitcoin that you can keep safe. Anywhere, everywhere."
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@lorne-kates It's been done. People print out the QR code to the bitcoin (or whatever) wallet address on a physical coin.
Some ICO made a big stunt out of burying one of those on Mt. Everest recently. You can also buy candles that melt down to reveal a QR code which may have bitcoins at it. Etc.
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@masonwheeler said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@rhywden said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
If you have a dual extruder then you can use water-soluble plastics for support structures.
Hmm... this is something I haven't heard of before. How does it work? You just take the finished model out and stick it in the bathtub for a few hours?
Also, what happens if the support plastic has a different melting point (particularly a lower one) than the model plastic?
We have a Stratasys machine here in R&D with dual extruders. The disolvable support is a very brittle translucent-brown plastic, it goes in a heated circulator full of caustic soda solution at about 50°C, so no chance of damaging the model plastic. The disolving process typically takes about an hour.
Works really well for overhangs like normal frangible support but you can also do fancy internal stuff as long as the caustic soda can get to it afterwards.
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@lorne-kates said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
Print a Bitcoin with it. nononon make a BUSINESS out of printing Bitcoins.
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@blakeyrat said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@lorne-kates It's been done. People print out the QR code to the bitcoin (or whatever) wallet address on a physical coin.
Some ICO made a big stunt out of burying one of those on Mt. Everest recently. You can also buy candles that melt down to reveal a QR code which may have bitcoins at it. Etc.
I didn't say anything about a QR code. Or exchanging the printed coin back for a physical coin.
They send you 1BTC, you send them 1 3D printing BitCoin. The end.
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@cursorkeys I'm guessing none of that company's products are affordable to mere mortals.
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@lorne-kates said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
They send you 1BTC, you send them 1 3D printing BitCoin.
Oh like a simple scam?
They send me $7700 and I send back $0.50 worth of plastic kind of thing. I get it now.
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@masonwheeler said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@lorne-kates said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
Print a Bitcoin with it. nononon make a BUSINESS out of printing Bitcoins.
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@blakeyrat said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@cursorkeys I'm guessing none of that company's products are affordable to mere mortals.
Yeah, I think we paid 33k US for our machine and it's one of the cheaper ones. Compared to a friend's cheap Makerbot the only major differences are the slicer capabilities and the finish on the print quality, you get zero alignment/layer bond issues, no cobwebbing at all, etc...
I looked up the disolvable support and, although our cartridges don't say what it is, it looks identical to HIPS:
So you could run it in hobbyist machines. Sodium Hydroxide prills are available on eBay.
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Just ordered a couple rolls of HatchBox PLA. The Internet seems to be in unanimous agreement that HatchBox is one of the best brands of filament. It's a bit more expensive than Monoprice, but if I don't have to throw half of it away I'll definitely come out ahead.
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@cursorkeys said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
So you could run it in hobbyist machines.
I'm seriously thinking about buying the multiple filament upgrade when it's available for my machine in September. But plenty of time to make that decision, and I might be bored of the whole hobby by then, who knows.
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BTW stupid question I thought of:
Is there a point to keeping the bed heater on beyond the first 3-5 layers? It seems like once those are down, the bed heating doesn't do anything at all, right? Just wasted power?
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@blakeyrat My prints break free of the print bed once the bed cools, so I have to keep the heater on until everything's done. My experience doesn't seem normal so I'm not sure why it works this way for me. I always read "You don't need a heater for PLA" but if I leave it off everything goes horribly wrong.
For ABS, the heater has to stay on (and preferably the print area in an enclosure to retain heat) else it warps/cracks/fails/summons Cthulu.
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@blakeyrat Are those self replicating printers any good?
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@sockpuppet7 Not sure what you mean.
The one I have is a Prusa i3 Mark 3. It's an "open source" design which means that anybody can download the parts list/assembly instructions and build one. And all of the plastic parts of the 3D printer can be 3D printed. (Well, except like the LCD screen and the shrink-tube that keeps the wiring from getting tangled.)
So if that's what you mean, then I guess I have a self-replicating printer? if you ignore the huge number of parts that can't be 3D printed and the literally 60 hours of labor it takes to assemble one.
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@blakeyrat I was thinking that with this one maybe you would print that upgrade
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@sockpuppet7 3d-printable 3d printers aren't very 3d-printable. I looked into it because mine was "meant to be 3D printed." By that, they apparently meant you can 3D print a few belts and pulleys, and spend $500 on servos and boards and frames and plates and wires and heater elements and so on...
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@mott555 said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@sockpuppet7 3d-printable 3d printers aren't very 3d-printable. I looked into it because mine was "meant to be 3D printed." By that, they apparently meant you can 3D print a few belts and pulleys, and spend $500 on servos and boards and frames and plates and wires and heater elements and so on...
Not sure. I have this Geetech Prusa clone (the cheap ass version which only annoys you) and its frame is mostly acrylic. Which means that if you choose the proper plastic, you might actually be able to print almost all of the frame, leaving "only" electronics, bed, motors, shafts and the actual printer head to be made externally.
How well such a thing would work, however,...
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@sockpuppet7 said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@blakeyrat I was thinking that with this one maybe you would print that upgrade
I'm guessing creating the upgrade without Prusa's kit would be somewhere between "annoying" and "impossible". Finding supplies for all the motors, nozzles, metal parts, etc. separately, hoping they sell in quantities of less than 100, total pain in the ass.
Only a few parts are 3D printable. On the printer I have it's basically just the casing for the print head assembly, the casing for the computer board, and the bar that holds up the spool of filament. Virtually everything else is metal cut to shape, or parts like electric motors, sensors, etc. impossible to build at home. (If you can make a 18" worm gear cut to 1/100th of a millimeter precision at home, I'd be pretty impressed. This printer has 4 or 5 of those.)
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@polygeekery said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
@blakeyrat said in Today in Blakeyrat is always several years behind in every tech trend news...:
While I'm at work, I'm going to get this guy printing the B-2 Spirit model someone mentioned up-thread. Replaced the filament with black, and it should be done-ish by the time I get home.
Is that safe to do?
So long as you trust your printer.
For mine, if the filament gets stuck, it's stuck for good, so the printing effectively stops. In others, it may be stuck only for a while, and then get un-stuck, and then you're usually extruding into open air, which results in a bunch of plastic hair (effectively, wasted).