Commuting WTF Thread
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@dkf
If only trains could have doors on both sides and you could enforce "in" traffic to all be on one side of the platform via the design of your launch platform.Alas, until such a technological advancement is made
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@izzion One of the new subway stations here does that with the elevators. People leave on one side and get in through the other side. Pretty cool, although slightly confusing the first time.
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@izzion That's possible, of course, but it would require redesigning, and probably enlarging, stations. There would have to be platforms on both sides of every track. You could no longer have two tracks adjacent nor a single platform between two tracks. Every station at which you wanted to enforce such traffic flow would have to have at least N + 1 platforms instead of N / 2.
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@dkf We could start by drawing lanes and direction arrows onto the ground in crowded places. Seriously, it would help a lot if you at least could get the people walking in different directions to stay in different sides.
After people get used to this we could start experimenting with fast and slow lanes or something.
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@HardwareGeek Even worse if you consider a station like Amsterdam Centraal, which has 3 tracks between two platforms, and trains may stop on only the west (A) or east (B) half of a given platform doubling the effective number of platforms available for shorter trains. The longest platforms (A+B) are over 600m long.
https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.379043,4.8983598,616m/data=!3m1!1e3
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@HardwareGeek
Right, but my point is this is a known issue with a known solution that has existed for a LONG time. Amusement parks build pretty much all of their major rides with that launch platform design. And yet we still keep building mass transit stations without that basic flow consideration.And I have been in some airports that do actually design their people movers that way too (Atlanta’s underground tram, for example). So places that just rely on sheeple sorting things out themselves need to get the stick out and design their platforms properly.
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@anonymous234 said in Commuting WTF Thread:
We could start by drawing lanes and direction arrows onto the ground
In Montreal's metro, we have arrows on the floor indicating that you should stand on each side of the door and let people get off before trying to get in
Does it work?
Kind of. Some people are too stupid to follow arrows
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@TimeBandit said in Commuting WTF Thread:
In Montreal's metro, ... Some people are too stupid to follow arrows
Sure. The arrows are in English, but the people are Francophones.
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@HardwareGeek Exactly.
They should have written "tasse toi Tabarnak" in the middle
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@anonymous234 Have you tried being much bigger than them, obviously angry, and loud?
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@Gribnit said in Commuting WTF Thread:
obviously angry
There's nothing that expresses “obviously angry” quite like the zzZZap of an electric cattle prod. ;)
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@topspin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wa4U6TQlNI
Always bugged me that that film could afford like 300 extras, and like a dozen stuntmen for that scene, but couldn't make the two prop dumptrucks the same matching model of truck.
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This post is deleted!
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Deleted my original post. It was a and this isn’t the garage.
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@anonymous234 said in Commuting WTF Thread:
the crowd of people in front of you won't fucking make way.
Solved problem:
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@dfdub said in Commuting WTF Thread:
@stillwater said in Commuting WTF Thread:
What country is this?
I still want to see if someone manages to recognize it from my description. ;) Let's just say that it's a first-world country - at least supposedly.
obnoxious loud travelers who disrespect signs?
"supposedly" first-world country?My bet is on Italian-Swiss border, sir!
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@marcodave welcome back!
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@boomzilla Reminds me of this notice from a newpaper in Sweden (paraphrased):
Bus number 3 has been having issues with delays due to too many passengers getting on and off. To solve these issue the bus will change to a route without stops.
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Commuting in Sweden
https://i.redd.it/78ghd2f2pwc11.jpg
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@boomzilla said in Commuting WTF Thread:
@boomzilla said in Commuting WTF Thread:
@boomzilla said in Commuting WTF Thread:
"We have a photo to illustrate Metro news and we're not afraid to use it."
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@Zecc The last time they used a different photo, it was probably this one:
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@TwelveBaud That's an innovative way to increase track capacity. (... too soon?)
If it makes you feel better, we're still talking about this in Seattle:
Amtrak says they're "very confident" they'll finally have positive train control, you know the system they were supposed to roll out in the 1970s that would have prevented this accident, on that line by the start of December.
BTW look how much freeway drainage ponds look like cute little stadiums.
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@Atazhaia said in Commuting WTF Thread:
There's a few reasons for me using bus rather than car. I calculated that the cost of a 30-day bus pass would get me a week at most of commuting by car. And that's with the second highest public transport prices in the country. The second is that the rush hour traffic in the town where I work is horrible and I'm happy to pay to not drive in it, especially as I work in the middle of the city. And the third is that I can use the time on the bus for other stuff, which adds up to about an hour of usable time compared to car. So to me the pros outweigh the cons.
If I didn't have to drive 100 miles a day to commute, I'd go back to public transit. Hell, I want auto-cars to become a thing so I can recoup my 60 minutes.
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@Captain said in Commuting WTF Thread:
If I didn't have to drive 100 miles a day to commute, I'd go back to public transit.
I do on that order, which is why I use public transit.
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@dkf I'd love to, but unfortunately it isn't an option for me. I'd have to take slow Amtraks for like $40 a day.
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@Captain said in Commuting WTF Thread:
If I didn't have to drive 100 miles a day to commute, I'd go back to public transit. Hell, I want auto-cars to become a thing so I can recoup my 60 minutes.
I assume you mean 60min each way? Damn, that's an easy commute. Takes me that long to drive 18mi.
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@Captain said in Commuting WTF Thread:
I'd have to take slow Amtraks for like $40 a day.
My daily commute cost would be around that, if I paid by the day. It's a lot less on a per-day basis because I buy a week at a time. (Buying by the month or more would reduce the cost a bit further, but not by very much, and the weekly tickets are the longest I can get from the automatic sales terminal.) Fortunately, I can do most of the route by express train and I can work (and, more importantly, consume lots of coffee!) while the train takes the strain.
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@dcon said in Commuting WTF Thread:
@Captain said in Commuting WTF Thread:
If I didn't have to drive 100 miles a day to commute, I'd go back to public transit. Hell, I want auto-cars to become a thing so I can recoup my 60 minutes.
I assume you mean 60min each way? Damn, that's an easy commute. Takes me that long to drive 18mi.
Yay, Silly Valley!
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@dcon No, it's about 50 miles and 30 minutes each way.
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@Captain 50 mi × 60 min/hr ÷ 30 min = 100 mph. That's a whuppin' from the self-appointed traffic police here!
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@lolwhat It's really more like 45 miles in 35 minutes, under ideal conditions.
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@Captain said in Commuting WTF Thread:
@lolwhat It's really more like 45 miles in 35 minutes, under ideal conditions.
Well, you certainly won't find any sympathy from any of us Silly Valley people!
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@dcon Still want an autocar.
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@Captain said in Commuting WTF Thread:
@dcon Still want an autocar.
Well, yeah. But let's qualify that with "one that really works and isn't out to kill me"...
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Autonomous cars won't get you to your destination any quicker though, it will only make it possible for you to do something else while the car brings you there.
If you'd want to use an autonomous car as a mobile office, in my view a car's interior must be made to facilitate that. Last time I tried using a laptop in a car it was an absolutely terrible experience: it felt cramped, I had to sit in awkward positions, and due to the wobbly nature of being on the road it was quite unpleasant to get any work done.
In my view a proper mobile office would need a decent chair which allows you to sit upright, a table, wi-fi and a plug socket. The car should also have excellent suspension so that any bumps in the road aren't felt in the cabin (something like Citroen's Progressive Hydraulic Cushions).
That is, if you're legally allowed to do that. I can see lawmakers coming up with a requirement to keep your eyes on the road at all times. Then you'll just be monitoring a machine without being able to do anything.
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@AlexMedia said in Commuting WTF Thread:
Autonomous cars won't get you to your destination any quicker though, it will only make it possible for you to do something else while the car brings you there.
One won't. A critical mass of them will, because they'll be able to drive more efficiently when they can communicate with one another, improving traffic flow.
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@masonwheeler said in Commuting WTF Thread:
One won't. A critical mass of them will, because they'll be able to drive more efficiently when they can communicate with one another, improving traffic flow.
Autonomous vehicles (AV's) might help against ghost jams (traffic waves) because their driving style is more predictable. Just like giving every car adaptive cruise control and encouraging drivers to use it would.
What AV's wont fix is congestion. A road can only support X vehicles per hour per direction, if more vehicles want to use that road this will inevitably lead to traffic jams. After all, cars (autonomous or not) will have to leave some space so another car can merge onto a highway, which leads to the car behind it having to decelerate, etc.
Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me if safety envelopes around AV's lead to a decrease in road capacity. An AV is likely to keep a bigger distance to the car directly in front of it than a human driver would.
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@AlexMedia said in Commuting WTF Thread:
In my view a proper mobile office would need a decent chair which allows you to sit upright, a table, wi-fi and a plug socket.
You mean, like on the (main) train I use to get to work?
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@AlexMedia said in Commuting WTF Thread:
Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me if safety envelopes around AV's lead to a decrease in road capacity. An AV is likely to keep a bigger distance to the car directly in front of it than a human driver would.
Has anyone established what those safety parameters need to be when all the vehicles concerned are autonomous or semi-autonomous?
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@dkf said in Commuting WTF Thread:
@AlexMedia said in Commuting WTF Thread:
Furthermore, it wouldn't surprise me if safety envelopes around AV's lead to a decrease in road capacity. An AV is likely to keep a bigger distance to the car directly in front of it than a human driver would.
Has anyone established what those safety parameters need to be when all the vehicles concerned are autonomous or semi-autonomous?
-Wall -Werror -pedantic
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@dkf said in Commuting WTF Thread:
Has anyone established what those safety parameters need to be when all the vehicles concerned are autonomous or semi-autonomous?
An important factor to consider is passenger comfort. While AVs can theoretically drive very close together, any sudden event (such as an animal crossing the road) will lead to full service brake applications on a lot of vehicles, which means that some people would have to see a dentist or optician afterwards. A bigger distance between vehicles means that they can brake more gradually, and thus more comfortably.
My car, an Opel Mokka X (Vauxhall Mokka X in the UK, Buick Encore in the USA) has a Forward Collision Alert system. As part of that it can show the following distance to the vehicle in front of me.
When I see a green car icon light up on my dashboard, it means that the sensors have spotted a car in front of me and consider me at a safe distance from it. When this icon turns orange it means that the computer thinks that I am too close to my predecessor. In one of the menus I can also see the following distance to the car in front of me, expressed in seconds.
On Dutch motorways the speed limit is 130 km/h (80 mph, 36,1 m/s). At that speed, the tipping point between green and orange seems to be at 0,8 seconds. Note that this is the absolute minimum as to what GM considers "far away enough". The Dutch road safety board advise to always maintain a following distance of at least 2 seconds.
36,1 × 0,8 = 28,9 m (31,6 yd)
36,1 × 2 = 72,2 m (78,9 yd)It felt quite unnerving to be following someone that close (for science!) so I quickly backed off once the icon had gone orange. At around 1,5 seconds, it felt much more comfortable to be following someone.
In practice, it seems like people (including traffic engineers) don't take the 2 second guidance too seriously. Traffic engineers use a following distance of 1,4 seconds in calculations, as they know that drivers aren't just focused on the car directly in front of them but look beyond that.
So, concluding:
- A following distance of 0,8 seconds might technically be possible, but it feels very unnerving to be driving that close to someone. Having AVs drive that close to each other will lead to very stressed passengers.
- A following distance of 2 seconds is considered safe for conventional vehicles, but might be too much for AVs that are equipped with sensors which can react to changing circumstances much quicker than human beings could ever do.
- The mean following distance in practice seems to be 1,4 seconds. This is halfway between the 2s and 0,8s from above, and would probably be the ideal following distance for AVs as well.
This leads to a distance of 50,5 m (55,2 yd) between two cars traveling at 130 km/h on a straight piece of road. This does not yet take merging and diverging traffic into account.
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@AlexMedia Or morons seeing a gap of 1 + epsilon car lengths and thinking they can shave a millisecond or so off their commute by squeezing into it.
Salty? Who, me? Never.
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@masonwheeler In other words, you just can't wait to be required to rent (not own) any means of transportation?
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@masonwheeler Well great, but people now still buy cars from the 90s, so you realize that any legislation around car features is going to take at least 30 years to propagate to every driver, and even then there'll be a lot of exceptions that'll make your plan impossible. (Military vehicle convoys, large/weirdly-shaped loads, classic car drivers, etc.)
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@AlexMedia said in Commuting WTF Thread:
An important factor to consider is passenger comfort. While AVs can theoretically drive very close together, any sudden event (such as an animal crossing the road) will lead to full service brake applications on a lot of vehicles, which means that some people would have to see a dentist or optician afterwards. A bigger distance between vehicles means that they can brake more gradually, and thus more comfortably.
Passenger comfort is not the only thing that gets worse if the car doesn't keep enough distance. Sudden braking is the #1 cause of traffic jams. It causes traffic on a road that is filled near its capacity to instantly grind to a halt.
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@pie_flavor said in Commuting WTF Thread:
-Wall -Werror -pedantic
There's a whole load more warnings beyond those… (
-Wextra
, etc…)