Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery
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@stillwater Definitely do the Kotlin thing. You will be tearing your hair out much less. Kotlin makes everything easier, but the Android API is the specific design of API that Kotlin especially excels at making easier.
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@pie_flavor The tutorial actually comes with a tabbed editor thingy where you can switch between viewing the relevant kotlin or Java code which helps a lot if you want to pick up kotlin alongside Java when learning Android.
Also, went from installation to making an app with pictures and lists in like 2 hours. Pretty nifty compared to xamarin wuckery.
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@stillwater Definitely do the Kotlin thing. You will be tearing your hair out much less. Kotlin makes everything easier, but the Android API is the specific design of API that Kotlin especially excels at making easier.
An important advantage of Kotlin for Android specifically is that it has the Java 8 goodness, but can compile it down to the 1.6 bytecode that Android is stuck with.
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@stillwater Are you using the new version of the documentation that just got ported to the Microsoft's docs.microsoft.com site?
Also, which version of Xamarin are you using? Are you using the new Forms 3.0 or one of the older versions? If on Forms 3.0, are you using the lastest version of Visual Studio 2017 which (finally) has intellisense for Xamarin XAML, or are you using a different tool?
Edit - New Docs Location: https://docs.microsoft.com/xamarin/ or https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/
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@the_bytemaster said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Are you using the new version of the documentation that just got ported to the Microsoft's docs.microsoft.com site?
Yes.
@the_bytemaster said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Also, which version of Xamarin are you using? Are you using the new Forms 3.0
The Docs has the latest version i presume. Installed the workloads from VS 2017 installer.
@the_bytemaster said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
are you using the lastest version of Visual Studio 2017
Yes
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@stillwater said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
And obviously they did not do shit because I tried it yesterday painstakingly doing the exact steps and fuckton of build errors and missing assemblies.
And hey. Hey. Wanna know the fun part? The really fun part?
There's multiple versions of the tutorials out there. Depends on if you go to their site, or their document site, or through Google.
They're maintaining multiple versions of documentation and demos. And they don't tell you for which version of the product they're for.
And even if you knew? They're. All. Wrong.
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@dkf said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Eclipse, which is my IDE of choice
Eclipse is the only program I've ever encountered that routinely breaks Window's normal path length limitations when placed in reasonable locations.
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OH.MY.GOD.
Googling Xamarin lists www.xamarin.com which takes me to https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/xamarin/ (which did not happen a few days back. It took me to the actual xamarin site which I cannot find anymore).
clicking on the docs there take me to https://developer.xamarin.com/getting-started/ which is different from the https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/
This is some next level fuckery.
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You know what I really hate? That someone thinks it is okay to waste a developer's time by writing shitty documentation. That time is not that valuable. If I ever wrote something that others could use with like 5 public methods, I'd document the shit out of them. I want someone to learn how to use my product, not learn how to learn how to use it. What a bunch of assholes. Sigh.
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@the_bytemaster said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@stillwater Are you using the new version of the documentation that just got ported to the Microsoft's docs.microsoft.com site?
Also, which version of Xamarin are you using? Are you using the new Forms 3.0 or one of the older versions? If on Forms 3.0, are you using the lastest version of Visual Studio 2017 which (finally) has intellisense for Xamarin XAML, or are you using a different tool?
Edit - New Docs Location: https://docs.microsoft.com/xamarin/ or https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/
omfg. I didn't even see this bit of ass-lickery when I posted my "multiple versions of the doc for multiple versions of the product" post.
What's the point of using the latest version of anything when the docs are never updated? And when every new version isn't backwards compatible with old code?
Tell you what-- if I go to the Xamarin homepage RIGHT NOW, and find a link to documentation that backs up anything you're claiming, I might give the framework another shot.
Ready? Here we go.
Google.com. Keyword:
xamarin
. Click top result.Okay, there is no "documentation" link amongst all the marketing bullshit. I guess this won't be a one-click thing. Maybe if I click "Support"? No-- why am I getting so many references to Visual Studio?
Oh snap, I'm not on xamarin.com, I'm on visualstudio.microsoft.com/xamarin. They haven't even updated their google index.
So insta-fail there. Let's try
xamarin primer
Top result: A primer on c# for xamarin developers.
Second result: "Getting started with Xamarin". That seems familiar. Because it's the same link I followed when I first started. And it's dated Apr 10, 2017, so it has to be out of date.
Okay, how about
xamarin getting started
third hit is
https://developer.xamarin.com/getting-started/
, which isn't dated. Maybe it's a living doc. Let's try. Buncha bullshit and "On windows? try our visual studio 2017 getting started".ooookay. Third result in Google and I still have another click to do. Fine, I'll click that.
It's just a
#windows
anchor in the same page. Tells me to download Visual Studio 15.4 or higher. vs2017 is currently 15.7.3.Then step 2 is to install the Xamarin framework, which is bullshit because that's supposed to come WITH vs2017 now, isn't it?
Hmm, maybe "additional samples"? Nope. But there is a "getting started" link. I click that and... land on
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/cross-platform/get-started/
So I went from a "getting started" guide to a DIFFERENT "getting started" guide, and still haven't gotten started.
And this one is dated April 10, 2017. Which is the same out-of-date guide I skipped over a few paragraphs above.
Maybe if I instead click the "Xamarin.Forms" link in the nav bar?
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/xamarin-forms/get-started/index
May 23, 2018. Closer.Finally get to
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/xamarin/xamarin-forms/get-started/hello-xamarin-forms/quickstart?tabs=vswin
which finally has a Hello Xamarin project (phoneword). At this point, I'm out of time and will have to try the actual demo code tomorrow.SUPER EASY!
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@lorne-kates You bring back a lot of bad memories again describing each step like that.
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
At this point, I'm out of time and will have to try the actual demo code tomorrow.
Does not work.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
vs2017 is currently 15.7.3.
Dude. That's old - 15.7.4 is out (it's been more than a week...)
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@dcon So we should expect the next version any day now?
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@stillwater Definitely do the Kotlin thing. You will be tearing your hair out much less. Kotlin makes everything easier, but the Android API is the specific design of API that Kotlin especially excels at making easier.
That's nice and all but doesn't solve the problem of what to do if you want your app in all three stores (UWP, Android, iOS).
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@lorne-kates Microsoft is all open-source-y now, so they only do the "fun" work. Maintaining documentation and websites is not fun.
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@stillwater Definitely do the Kotlin thing. You will be tearing your hair out much less. Kotlin makes everything easier, but the Android API is the specific design of API that Kotlin especially excels at making easier.
That's nice and all but doesn't solve the problem of what to do if you want your app in all three stores (UWP, Android, iOS).
You write it in three different languages.
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@stillwater Definitely do the Kotlin thing. You will be tearing your hair out much less. Kotlin makes everything easier, but the Android API is the specific design of API that Kotlin especially excels at making easier.
That's nice and all but doesn't solve the problem of what to do if you want your app in all three stores (UWP, Android, iOS).
You write it in three different languages.
Yay, three different code bases! That's absolutely not problematic at all!
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Yay, three different code bases! That's absolutely not problematic at all!
If they shared a library format you could have just one library with the bulk of the application logic, and then just three UIs for it. That's not too bad to maintain.
The problem is: do they all share a library format?
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Yay, three different code bases! That's absolutely not problematic at all!
If they shared a library format you could have just one library with the bulk of the application logic, and then just three UIs for it. That's not too bad to maintain.
The problem is: do they all share a library format?
Not that I know of. You might get away with C++ for both Android and UWP (haven't checked, though) but iOS is definitely a non-starter in that regard.
But you'd not only have to code three different UIs, it's also the device capabilities which are different. As soon as you want something simple like accessing a file the fun starts.
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@rhywden Yeah I mean this is the reason Xamarin was invented in the first place. It's just too bad it's suck.
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@stillwater said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
You know what I really hate? That someone thinks it is okay to waste a developer's time by writing shitty documentation. That time is not that valuable. If I ever wrote something that others could use with like 5 public methods, I'd document the shit out of them. I want someone to learn how to use my product, not learn how to learn how to use it. What a bunch of assholes. Sigh.
I can't upvote this enough.
If you put out documentation and how-to guides-- and then change your product-- the very first thing you should do before release is go look at the documentation.
Follow it, step by step, from step 1 to the end.
Does a step not work / not match the current UI / have different terminology? Stop. Rewrite that step.
Now go back to step 1 and start again.
Keep doing this until you can make it through the entire document without encountering an error.
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@dcon said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
vs2017 is currently 15.7.3.
Dude. That's old - 15.7.4 is out (it's been more than a week...)
Either wikipedia is wrong, or 15.7.4 isn't stable.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@rhywden Yeah I mean this is the reason Xamarin was invented in the first place. It's just too bad it's suck.
That's also why "advice" like "Dude, just use Kotlin!" is not really helpful.
Yes, we can use a native language. That's not what Xamarin is about, though.
Well, there's also Cordova. That's Javascript, though, and a completely different basket of snakes.
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@lorne-kates Yes, Wikipedia is never wrong and the authoritative source of truth on everything!
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@lorne-kates If you're using Wikipedia to determine the latest stable release of software, then you may be unsaveable.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Either wikipedia is wrong, or 15.7.4 isn't stable.
Or is was released on 6/18/2018.
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@dcon Thanks for linking that. Because I didn't fully read it before and just found this nugget:
The Universal Windows Platform allows distributing applications without the Microsoft Store by using a mechanism called “sideloading”. This release allows you to generate the appinstaller file to get automatic updates from your APPX based deployments.
Automatic updates for sideloaded packages!
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dcon Thanks for linking that. Because I didn't fully read it before and just found this nugget:
The Universal Windows Platform allows distributing applications without the Microsoft Store by using a mechanism called “sideloading”. This release allows you to generate the appinstaller file to get automatic updates from your APPX based deployments.
Automatic updates for sideloaded packages!
I wonder if that's some of the new MSIX stuff bleeding through?
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@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates If you're using Wikipedia to determine the latest stable release of software, then you may be unsaveable.
Meh. Whatever search term I put in for "what is current version of VS2017" returned wiki as the top hit. It's usually right enough. Which is why I prefaced with "either wiki is wrong OR", since wicked pee eater is often wrong.
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@dcon Sideloading is normally used for deploying new packages when you build. You can also do it more manually - that's how businesses originally were supposed to install their nonpublic apps. MSIX is just a packaging format, and can also do that, but it's half unrelated.
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@magus said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dcon Sideloading is normally used for deploying new packages when you build. You can also do it more manually - that's how businesses originally were supposed to install their nonpublic apps. MSIX is just a packaging format, and can also do that, but it's half unrelated.
What I meant was starting with the normal appx sideloading, then the MSIX stuff that allows you to point to the 'where is the new version (which may be on my server, not the store)' stuff kicks in for the upgrades.
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@dreikin said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@dkf said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Eclipse, which is my IDE of choice
Eclipse is the only program I've ever encountered that routinely breaks Window's normal path length limitations when placed in reasonable locations.
I don't have a problem with that. I don't use Windows for a development platform.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates Microsoft is all open-source-y now, so they only do the "fun" work. Maintaining documentation and websites is not fun.
I never expected to live in a future where the open sourcey peeps would infiltrate MS.
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Yay, three different code bases! That's absolutely not problematic at all!
Yeah you can write hello world three times unlike Xamarin where you can't even build the fucking thing.
@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
That's also why "advice" like "Dude, just use Kotlin!" is not really helpful.
It is helpful. The Android API is slightly worse than dipping your dick in a tub filled with broken glass shards and glue and then trying to fuck a transformer. Kotlin makes this experience significantly more tolerable.
Yes I know Xamarin lets you write apps using C#/ XAML for ALL THE PLATFORMZZZZ!!! but the getting started tutorial does not work so fuck that.
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@the_bytemaster said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Tizen
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates Microsoft is all open-source-y now, so they only do the "fun" work. Maintaining documentation and websites is not fun.
It isn't about not doing work that is not “fun”, it is about not doing work they can get away with not doing. Which is totally corporate-y.
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@rhywden said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
You might get away with C++ for both Android and UWP (haven't checked, though) but iOS is definitely a non-starter in that regard.
C++ works fine on iOS. I've been working on C++ apps that get compiled for both Android and iOS for quite some time now. You need a bit of Objective C glue for the UI, but you need similar bits of Java/Kotlin glue on Android.
If you want portable UI, you have three options: Qt (C++ throughout, including mostly portable platform integration; free for Android, paid for iOS), Cordova (so HTML+JS for the UI, backend in anything you can get working; free everywhere) or Xamarin (shit).
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I installed Xamarin through the visual studio installer a few weeks ago, created a new app and compiled and ran in an Android emulator without issues. Haven't had a chance to start any custom coding yet, and the iOS part won't build without getting xcode on my wife's mac and linking them, but I haven't seen any of these "it doesn't even compile" issues
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@jaloopa said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
I installed Xamarin through the visual studio installer a few weeks ago, created a new app and compiled and ran in an Android emulator without issues. Haven't had a chance to start any custom coding yet, and the iOS part won't build without getting xcode on my wife's mac and linking them, but I haven't seen any of these "it doesn't even compile" issues
I got the compile issues a few months back and then gave up. Tried it recently and again gave up hence the thread. One of my ex bosses wanted to evaluate Xamarin for a read only app for their product and he said It did not compile. Mind you all this was on clean VS installations. So I don't know, Classic case of WOMM?
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@thegoryone said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@stillwater said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
Yes I know Xamarin lets you write apps using C#/ XAML for ALL THE PLATFORMZZZZ!!! but the getting started tutorial does not work so fuck that.
From memory of when I was sent on a course to work withXamarin,it doesn't get much better. That was pre-Microsoft, though.A classic tale, full of fut the wuckey and witchcraft.FTFOOTFY?
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Both the title and the description sound like they would belong on the poster for a cheap 80s fantasy movie, with ridiculously bad special effects.
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@bulb said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
It isn't about not doing work that is not “fun”, it is about not doing work they can get away with not doing. Which is totally corporate-y.
They can only get away with it because the rest of the entire goddamned industry is also open source-y and thus also equally shitty.
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@blakeyrat said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@bulb said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
It isn't about not doing work that is not “fun”, it is about not doing work they can get away with not doing. Which is totally corporate-y.
They can only get away with it because the rest of the entire goddamned industry is also open source-y and thus also equally shitty.
I just hope the opensourcey folks don't fuck up VS Code. Or it is gonna become an endless "it's OSS. You fix it" nonsense.
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@lorne-kates said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@pie_flavor said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
@lorne-kates If you're using Wikipedia to determine the latest stable release of software, then you may be unsaveable.
Meh. Whatever search term I put in for "what is current version of VS2017" returned wiki as the top hit. It's usually right enough. Which is why I prefaced with "either wiki is wrong OR", since wicked pee eater is often wrong.
But in your favor, a "stable release" doesn't mean that the software is actually stable.
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@stillwater It's Electron. It's already fucked up.
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@blakeyrat winforms wasn't that great for resizeable windows. With the variety of screen sizes we have today, winforms would be inappropriate for anything that isn't a desktop computer.
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@sockpuppet7 I spent less than 2 working sessions on the completed HTML ui of this current application, for instance.
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@boomzilla said in Xamarin's contiuing barrel of cross-platform, XML-encoding fut the wuckery:
But in your favor, a "stable release" doesn't mean that the software is actually stable.
Stable release just means that they let the ass out to pasture.
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@sockpuppet7 You just need to set your panels, anchors, and such correctly, and that'll have you covered from quarter-VGA to 1280x1024. Just make sure your layout is okay with the default button being ripped out and shoved in the upper-right corner, renamed "OK".
(Made more than a few apps that ran on both desktop and phone back in 2004. Strangely enough, doing the same now.)
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