Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
I wonder why MS don't just take it a step further and just preboots the computer for you and logs you in when it thinks that you want to use it, so it's all ready for you, no need to enter any password or anything, just sit down and use!
Surfaces do exactly that using facial recognition. Seriously.
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@jaloopa I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the need for FastBoot on a computer equipped with an SSD.
Because it still speeds up the startup. Not as drastically, true, but why wouldn't you want this?
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Also, for that matter, explain to me why Windows should preload an entire user session, including the previously running apps, before anyone has even selected what user should be logged into the computer.
Probably because 99% of computers have the same user logged in 99% of the time.
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
I do have plenty of reasons to dislike certain features in Windows, and there is a lot of decisions that I question. These two being two of them. And I reserve my right to spew as much bile as possible over them!
Yeah but you might want to hold yourself back before you reach "bearded man with Bible in hand screaming about gays at a bus stop" levels of bile.
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Also, if you want someone who hates Windows, try talking to my colleague. He hates Windows with such a passion it makes me look like a 100% Windows fanboy in comparison. (He also for some reason ends up having shitloads of issues that nobody else encounters. I suspect there's some mutual hatred going on there.)
He probably dicks with shit. Most people who have problems with Windows have those problems because they can't just leave well-enough alone, they have to dick with shit and tweak every dial, the more hidden from the UI, the better.
Or he's one of those people who still works like it's 1992 and puts all his documents in the root of his C: drive, because goshdangit these newfangled "user folders" have been around for 25 years, but I'm still not ready to adopt them! (Most people who irrationally bitch about UAC belong in this group.)
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
No, you didn't understand and your comment only confirms it. Let me repeat - I don't want such decisions to be made without asking or informing me, regardless on the magnitude of implications (and in my case - screwing up the whole OS). If I wanted to dump my ram to disk, I would do it, because I would be happy at reducing my hw lifespan by whatever and it would be my decision. If you categorize such decision on the subjective impact they have on you - fine, but I don't give a shit about you.
"Moving your mouse cursor will use 47 additional bytes of RAM, possibly lowering the useful lifetime of your computer. Do you want to move the cursor?"
(presses enter)
"Pressing the Enter key will use 25 additional bytes of RAM, possibly lowering the useful lifetime of your computer. Do do you want to press Enter?"
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Browser caching is a thing know to users and everyone can turn it off,
What users have you interacted with?
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra I remember being really impressed by it the first time I tried out Windows 8 and went "Wow, they really improved the loading times to have Windows boot faster from a HDD than a SSD!" and then I learnt it was all fakery and lies made with smoke and mirrorsby doing hibernation instead of a real shutdown.
Which is bad because...?
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Microsoft isn't responsible for Chrome/Firefox/whatever auto-loading YT pages or YT deciding to auto-play on page load.
they are responsible for allowing those programs to play audio if the user hasn't even logged in, though
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@bb36e said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
they are responsible for allowing those programs to play audio if the user hasn't even logged in, though
Yeah; and like I said way above that behavior kind of surprises me. I'm not sure if you'd call it a bug per se, but it's definitely something where there needs to be a lot of discussion over what the computer should be doing.
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And Blakey's back to feed some life into the topic.
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@neighborhoodbutcher said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
And Blakey's back to
feed some life into the topicdefend Microsoft.FTFY
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@timebandit It's less "defending Microsoft" and more "what the fuck are you idiots even talking about".
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Or he's one of those people who still works like it's 1992 and puts all his documents in the root of his C: drive, because goshdangit these newfangled "user folders" have been around for 25 years, but I'm still not ready to adopt them! (Most people who irrationally bitch about UAC belong in this group.)
Yeah, I gotta get my fam to stop littering the root of the network drive with their stuff. Considering adding Deny permissions to that folder...
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
what the fuck are you idiots even talking about
Let me put it in words you could possibly understand
<blakeyrant>
Because it's a fuckin lie, you dumb piece of stupid shit !
If Microsoft's engineers are too retarded to make Windows actually boot faster, they should just replace the "Shutdown" button and call it what it really is: Hibernate.
</blakeyrant>
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Because it still speeds up the startup. Not as drastically, true, but why wouldn't you want this?
Because it makes it difficult to access the system drive from another OS (e.g. dual booting or file recovery) and it also doesn't allow shutting down to work properly on older hardware. I had a laptop where shutting down would just show a black screen for 30 seconds and then boot back up again, until I disabled fast startup. Which is kind of weird since the option was added to speed up boot times on older hardware in the first place...
@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Most people who have problems with Windows have those problems because they can't just leave well-enough alone, they have to dick with shit and tweak every dial, the more hidden from the UI, the better.
I couldn't agree more. I have a couple friends that brag about their customized setups and then complain to me about the obscure issues they're having and don't believe me when I tell them I've never seen or had those issues.
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Get home, get cozy with my laptop, pop into WTDWTF and I see @blakeyrat mentioned me four times in this topic. Pretty much as expected, just surprised it didn't happen sooner!
In regards of FastBoot I do call it an artificial crutch from its implementation: When I press the Shut Down button on my computer I do expect it to shut down. Close all programs, log me out, finish all disk writes and leave the computer in a clean, powered off state. Microsoft choose to change the meaning of shut down to a lesser hibernate state, where it does most of the things but hibernates the OS core. Sure, if you have a mechanical drive and/or weaker hardware and is only running Windows on your computer you will benefit from it. For anyone with modern, fast hardware and running the OS off an SSD there is however zero benefits to using FastBoot. As this is something that's easily detectable it would be a relatively easy thing to implement logic to only automatically activate this feature on hardware that sees a benefit from it.
Case in point: On my parents computer (7th gen Pentium, SATA SSD) I disabled FastBoot and set Windows to auto-login the only user account. It takes ~12 seconds from power button to Windows desktop. Tell me how FastBoot will improve that boot time in any meaningful way.
Also, in regards to logging in the user in the background. I did concede that this is indeed a useful feature, since most only have one user account on their PC. However, the implementation could be better and it could delay starting all open programs from the previous session until the actual login happens. Load the autostart items, but delay reopening programs. And no, it's not up to the browser vendor to prevent autoplaying YT videos in this situation. As far as Firefox does it, it only starts playing the video once the tab is given focus, but if the browser is opened in the background on an YT tab that tab will be in focus. Or should all browsers implement a check to see if they are opened on a locked computer now to prevent autoplaying on tabs who are given focus in that situation?
Granted, the login being slow compared to the competition has more to do with the 3rd party programs that also starts on startup and could be optimized down by trimming autostart to only load anything explicitly needed or that's convenient.
Also, my colleague doesn't mess with shit in Windows. He hates Windows with a passion and tries to use it as little as possible, so he will only do the minimal needed to do what he needs and then switch back to Linux at the first possible occasion. He doesn't even know or care about how to tweak shit to "make it work better" as as far as he's concerned it's a broken pile of shit and there's nothing that can be done to fix it.
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
In regards of FastBoot I do call it an artificial crutch from its implementation: When I press the Shut Down button on my computer I do expect it to shut down. Close all programs, log me out, finish all disk writes and leave the computer in a clean, powered off state.
So a rose by another name doesn't smell as sweet, is basically your argument.
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@blakeyrat To be fair, shutdown and hibernate are two different things with some important differences.
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@erufael said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@blakeyrat To be fair, shutdown and hibernate are two different things with some important differences.
The average user knows what Shut Down means. They have no fucking idea what Hibernate means. Changing the terminology would have confused the target audience. The people bitching in this thread are not the target audience.
Microsoft tried to make things better (did make things better) for the average users without confusing them. I prefer that to the way in which you go "I've changed everything! Look how clever it is now!"
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
as far as he's concerned it's a broken pile of shit and there's nothing that can be done to fix it.
Clearly he's a linux fan in name only then.
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@tsaukpaetra Maybe he should install WSL to get a touch of his beloved Ubuntu into it. Could improve his Windows experience!
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@benjamin-hall said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@atazhaia I remember a bunch of people complaining on these very forums that having windows restart for updates was bad because it wouldn't re-open windows.
Not re-opening windows isn't the problem; not restoring state is the problem. There is more to state than just what windows you have open. Restoring windows is a start, but it's not everything.
So they implemented a solution, trying to speed things up as much as possible for the normal case (single-user PCs). That Chrome, in particular, and YouTube (in more particular) decided that the best thing to do was autoplay all the things isn't Windows' fault.
I agree with this. They did as good a job, probably, as they could reasonably do. It doesn't help me a lot, since all the applications I use to do my real work don't get restarted, but hey, at least my browsers and random text files are there. Now I just need to go and spend half an hour doing version disambiguation and renaming on all the Excel spreadsheets I had open - an example of state that isn't restored just by restarting the application.
Of course, I'm one of those odd people who shuts all the programs down before shutting down the system, but...
I'm one of those people who needs to leave their work machine on overnight in case they need to remote in to fix issues, but occasionally get blindsided by admin-pushed updates with no warning and forced reboot. Different use cases present different problems, no surprise there.
@heterodox said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
they now have the same MTTF as platter hard drives
Nice. I hadn't heard that, so this is good to know.
@anonymous234 said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
loading a working internal state from hard drive (SSD or not) makes more sense than having to re-build it every time.
Yes - if you have one. If you've gone a long time without rebuilding it, it's not uncommon to have a "mostly working but doing some weird things" internal state that needs to be corrected by rebuilding it. There's a reason that "restart the machine" is practically the first troubleshooting step for quirky behaviour. (And of course, it continues to perform this function.) But some of us prefer to routinely rebuild the working state from scratch to prevent it getting into that quirky state to begin with. And those people can disable Fast Boot, so... everyone wins, really?
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@tsaukpaetra Maybe he should install WSL to get a touch of his beloved Ubuntu into it. Could improve his Windows experience!
Ha! As if!
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@heterodox said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
The average user knows what Shut Down means. They have no fucking idea what Hibernate means. Changing the terminology would have confused the target audience. The people bitching in this thread are not the target audience.
And under EU law as long as it uses less than half a watt you're allowed to call it 'off'.
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@scarlet_manuka said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
since all the applications I use to do my real work don't get restarted,
They've had over a decade to Get With The Program. Restart Manager came out with Vista.
@scarlet_manuka said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Now I just need to go and spend half an hour doing version disambiguation and renaming on all the Excel spreadsheets I had open
What.
Why do you have Excel spreadsheets open that need to be renamed? Why is version disambiguation needed? What is your workflow such that that is even a thing? What's your bug number for adding that to Excel's Restart Manager state?
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@jaloopa I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me the need for FastBoot on a computer equipped with an SSD.
Because it still speeds up the startup. Not as drastically, true, but why wouldn't you want this?
It fakes the shut down. Are there no good reasons to want to shut down?
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@timebandit It's less "defending Microsoft" and more "what the fuck are you idiots even talking about".
Yeah, that's kind of how we feel when you rant about some weird "bug."
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@heterodox said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@erufael said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@blakeyrat To be fair, shutdown and hibernate are two different things with some important differences.
The average user knows what Shut Down means.
:smiling_face_with_open_mouth_closed_eyes: Not any more!
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@boomzilla it means my PC isn't using any power and isn't turned on.
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@boomzilla said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
It fakes the shut down. Are there no good reasons to want to shut down?
The computer's power is off. What difference does it make?
It's not like your cable box where "off" actually means "still consuming 100 watts of power all the time because Comcast hates you". And yet when cable boxes do that, demonstrably worse than what Microsoft's doing here, nobody bitches.
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
And yet when cable boxes do that, demonstrably worse than what Microsoft's doing here, nobody bitches.
Only because on the list of things cable companies are doing, "using a bit more electric" doesn't even register
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@boomzilla said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
It fakes the shut down. Are there no good reasons to want to shut down?
The computer's power is off. What difference does it make?
It's not like your cable box where "off" actually means "still consuming 100 watts of power all the time because Comcast hates you". And yet when cable boxes do that, demonstrably worse than what Microsoft's doing here, nobody bitches.
The cable box doing that doesn't cause problems like this bug does. Sure, sure, I get that this has never been a problem for you, but then again, local vs roaming profile space has never been a problem for me. I mean, I get that you're an idiot and don't care about others, but fuck off for defending this shoddy bug.
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@boomzilla You caused your own problems by dicking around with the computer's boot system. Nobody at Microsoft did that.
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@boomzilla You caused your own problems by dicking around with the computer's boot system. Nobody at Microsoft did that.
That's so fucking stupid. But thanks for living up to the hyperbole.
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
And yet when cable boxes do that, demonstrably worse than what Microsoft's doing here, nobody bitches.
Only because on the list of things cable companies are doing, "using a bit more electric" doesn't even register
And fastboot on a cable box is required. My uVerse box takes several minutes (well, it feels like it) to turn on. And since I had a 9-hr power outage yesterday, I got to experience that. (Actually, I had to force reboot it because it got stuck)
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@blakeyrat said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
And yet when cable boxes do that, demonstrably worse than what Microsoft's doing here, nobody bitches.
none of us are stupid enough to rent cable boxes
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Wow. Given all the hate towards fastboot and hibernation in general, I can only imagine how some people here would react if NVRAM (probably, but not necessarily, using 3DXpoint or something similar) became common enough that Windows and other OSes move to a persistence kernel model (which hibernation is a kind of half-step towards anyway, though it is hard to see it really taking off with persistent RAM).
Mind you, I am having trouble seeing any of the current systems doing that without a massive overhaul, but that's another question by itself.
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@bb36e Uhm, I am pretty sure that there is at least one major US cable internet provider whose system will only work with their own cable boxes. And given that there are more than a few places where they have no competition, they can get away with it.
And that's just the US. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there some countries where the Internet providers have a legal monopoly?
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@scholrlea said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Mind you, I am having trouble seeing any of the current systems doing that without a massive overhaul
Some of the mobile OSs are going that way, but more by making it required that apps store their state properly so a reboot matters almost nothing at all.
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@scholrlea said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@bb36e Uhm, I am pretty sure that there is at least one major US cable internet provider whose system will only work with their own cable boxes. And given that there are more than a few places where they have no competition, they can get away with it.
The FCC requires that providers provide CableCards (at a reasonable fee) in order to interoperate with consumer-owned equipment, if asked. If there's any additional equipment needed to translate the signal, they need to provide it for free (I have a Cisco tuning adapter Cox gave me). It's nice being able to watch TV over the network anywhere in the house without having to pay any rental fees or for any additional lines to be run.
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@heterodox OK, I stand corrected.
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@heterodox said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@scholrlea said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@bb36e Uhm, I am pretty sure that there is at least one major US cable internet provider whose system will only work with their own cable boxes. And given that there are more than a few places where they have no competition, they can get away with it.
The FCC requires that providers provide CableCards (at a reasonable fee) in order to interoperate with consumer-owned equipment, if asked. If there's any additional equipment needed to translate the signal, they need to provide it for free (I have a Cisco tuning adapter Cox gave me). It's nice being able to watch TV over the network anywhere in the house without having to pay any rental fees or for any additional lines to be run.
Any takers on how long that requirement will still exist?
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@rhywden said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@heterodox said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@scholrlea said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@bb36e Uhm, I am pretty sure that there is at least one major US cable internet provider whose system will only work with their own cable boxes. And given that there are more than a few places where they have no competition, they can get away with it.
The FCC requires that providers provide CableCards (at a reasonable fee) in order to interoperate with consumer-owned equipment, if asked. If there's any additional equipment needed to translate the signal, they need to provide it for free (I have a Cisco tuning adapter Cox gave me). It's nice being able to watch TV over the network anywhere in the house without having to pay any rental fees or for any additional lines to be run.
Any takers on how long that requirement will still exist?
It will die when the cable companies stop being cable companies.
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@perverted_vixen said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
180kg
I don't speak European.
I'm sure you multiply by 2.20462?
:-P
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@pie_flavor said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@perverted_vixen said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
180kg
I don't speak European.
About 28 stone 5.
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@atazhaia said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
I was just hit with the new Windows "feature" mentioned in the OP. Colleague came in and connected his laptop and started the boot and then went for coffee. And ofc he had a browser tab with YT open, so it would load behind the login screen and start playing the world's longest fucking ad.
At least on my computer, the media keys (like, say, the volume control) work through the lock screen.
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@scholrlea said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@bb36e Uhm, I am pretty sure that there is at least one major US cable internet provider whose system will only work with their own cable boxes. And given that there are more than a few places where they have no competition, they can get away with it.
And that's just the US. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there some countries where the Internet providers have a legal monopoly?
In the UK, Virgin Media are the primary (only?) cable provider. You have to use their cable modem, which is a huge pile of rubbish.
I wish I could just choose a DOCSIS modem myself and use that.
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@cursorkeys said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Virgin Media are the primary (only?) cable provider
Only FTTH provider, since they bought up all the others. Most other ISPs have a FTTC option across a lot of the country
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@jaloopa said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
@cursorkeys said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Virgin Media are the primary (only?) cable provider
Only FTTH provider, since they bought up all the others.
There are a couple of tiny ones that I think are actually independent still for FTTH. I was a customer of Gigaclear for a year. Gigabit symmetrical, it was fantastic. Although I said I'd trench my own fibre to the box in the street to save money...bad idea, had to rent a breaker in the end.
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@scholrlea said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
Wow. Given all the hate towards fastboot and hibernation in general, I can only imagine how some people here would react if NVRAM (probably, but not necessarily, using 3DXpoint or something similar) became common enough that Windows and other OSes move to a persistence kernel model (which hibernation is a kind of half-step towards anyway, though it is hard to see it really taking off with persistent RAM).
I don't have a principled problem with what you describe. The problem with the Windows implementation is the state in which it leaves the drive.
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@boomzilla A state in which you can boot faster? With the option to turn it off if you're one of the 0.5% of people who use one drive for multiple operating systems?
Yeah, it's awful
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@boomzilla said in Fall Creators Update, or how to fuck up the OS from start to finish:
The problem with the Windows implementation is the state in which it leaves the drive.
The state of "working perfectly fine"? Yeah, that is a huge problem.
Why don't you just update your shitty Linux bootloader made by idiots that doesn't work right? Let me guess: because there is no fix, because it's shitty.