Big list of webapps masquerading as native
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https://www.hipchat.com/downloads
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@marczellm said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
Nah, th wb parts ar xplicitly a browsr.
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Did your keyboard break or are you having a stroke?
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@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
Did your keyboard break or are you having a stroke?
S th status thrad for an xplanation.
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Good to see that you aren't having a stroke. Hopefully you'll have a working keyboard again soon.
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@AlexMedia
It's part of Milwaukee PC's new data saver plan. Every day they pick a random letter to strip out of anything you send to the Internet, so that you use 4% less data and save big buxx.
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Are .NET apps native?
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@anonymous234 They are when you use
ngen
on them
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@marczellm All these electron apps are way better than native. Browser as the app FTW.
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@cartman82 said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
All these electron apps are way better than native. Browser as the app FTW.
I say that to myself every time I right-click Discord's window preview in the taskbar and there's no option to minimize, move, or close it on the contextual menu there.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I say that to myself every time I right-click Discord's window preview in the taskbar and there's no option to minimize, move, or close it on the contextual menu there.
Adding contextual menu in electron isn't any more difficult than in a native app (or .NET winforms / WPF app). Maybe this Discord thing just sucks.
All electron apps that I use are great.
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@cartman82 They don't even have to add one, they just have to not sabotage the one Windows gives them automatically.
But the fact that that's even possible means their UI framework sucks. Sure people can make good apps in a sucky framework, but that doesn't make the framework good.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@cartman82 They don't even have to add one, they just have to not sabotage the one Windows gives them automatically.
But the fact that that's even possible means their UI framework sucks. Sure people can make good apps in a sucky framework, but that doesn't make the framework good.I think you don't get a native Windows menu by default in electron, since it assumes cross-platform. You have to build it yourself.
It's not difficult, you just have to bother to do it.
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@cartman82 And this is supposed to convince me it's not shitty? You're not helping.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@cartman82 And this is supposed to convince me it's not shitty? You're not helping.
The price you pay for cross platform.
I am sure there is a "best practice" way to easily add all the defaults. I still haven't gotten that far in my electron based steam launcher probably-to-be-abandoned-at-some-point project I am working on.
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@cartman82 said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
The price you pay for cross platform.
Cross-platform should mean "it does the stuff to satisfy each platform's contract for you", not "it does JACK SHIT and you have to do it all yourself even though that's pointless boilerplate, haha, fuck you".
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@cartman82 said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
The price you pay for least common denominator cross platform.
There are other, better ways to do it. They just involve different prices to be paid.
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@cartman82 said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I think you don't get a native Windows menu by default in electron, since it assumes cross-platform. You have to build it yourself.
I think that's precisely the problem.
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@cartman82 said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
The price you pay for cross platform.
I don't want cross platform. I want an app that looks, feels and behaves like a good citizen of the platform I'm using.
I don't give a damn that devs are lazy.
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@blakeyrat said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@cartman82 said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
The price you pay for cross platform.
Cross-platform should mean "it does the stuff to satisfy each platform's contract for you", not "it does JACK SHIT and you have to do it all yourself even though that's pointless boilerplate, haha, fuck you".
The weird thing is, for all the hate Java gets, it did at least make an effort to fit in with each platform's native look-and-feel.
Well, it gave developers a fairly simple way to do it, anyway.
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What about an 1277 line, 116 commit, 27 files changed pull request to add menus to an application that provide at least a subset of the functionality of Windows native menus?
Quoting https://githubengineering.com/how-four-native-developers-wrote-an-electron-app/
On macOS, Electron gives us access to the standard app menu bar, but on Windows, the menu support is less than ideal. The menu is shown in the window frame, which doesn’t work with our frameless window design. The built-in menu’s usability is also rough around the edges and doesn’t support the keyboard accessibility Windows users expect.
We worked hard to recreate a Windows-appropriate menu in web technologies, complete with access keys and appropriate focus states.
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Also reimplemented in the Brave browser:
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@RaceProUK I thought you normally got the awful Java look and feel.
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@Magus said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@RaceProUK I thought you normally got the awful Java look and feel.
That's the default, but Swing at least had the Pluggable Look-And-Feel system, which IIRC came with defaults for Windows, MacOS (Classic, given the time it was), and a few Linux ones like Motif and GTK+.
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@RaceProUK said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
That's the default, but Swing at least had the Pluggable Look-And-Feel system, which IIRC came with defaults for Windows, MacOS (Classic, given the time it was), and a few Linux ones like Motif and GTK+.
I love this official example code:
try { // Set System L&F UIManager.setLookAndFeel( UIManager.getSystemLookAndFeelClassName()); } catch (UnsupportedLookAndFeelException e) { // handle exception } catch (ClassNotFoundException e) { // handle exception } catch (InstantiationException e) { // handle exception } catch (IllegalAccessException e) { // handle exception }
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@marczellm said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
On macOS, Electron gives us access to the standard app menu bar, but on Windows, the menu support is less than ideal. The menu is shown in the window frame, which doesn’t work with our frameless window design.
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@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I don't want cross platform. I want an app that looks, feels and behaves like a good citizen of the platform I'm using.
I don't give a damn that devs are lazy.I want platforms to stop being special snowflakes and start gradually unifying UI conventions so that developers can be lazy, as they should be able to.
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and ooh, such a fancy onebox!
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Some of the Windows built in apps
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Better than websites that detect I am on a phone and keep nagging me to install their app
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@anonymous234 said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I want platforms to stop being special snowflakes and start gradually unifying UI conventions so that developers can be lazy, as they should be able to.
I want devs to stop pretending that their apps are special snowflakes that deserve a unique and distinctive UI, instead they should adhere to the standard of the platform on which they run.
I'm fine with apps doing their own thing on their own canvas, but I don't want them fucking around with the window frame. I also don't like it when apps fuck around with the behaviour of the taskbar icons, tiles and menus beyond what's provided (and encouraged) by the platform.
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@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I want devs to stop pretending that their apps are special snowflakes that deserve a unique and distinctive UI, instead they should adhere to the standard of the platform on which they run.
And because I often switch between Linux and Windows, I like the programs to have the same UI in both, because then I don't have to learn the program twice.
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@Adynathos said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I want devs to stop pretending that their apps are special snowflakes that deserve a unique and distinctive UI, instead they should adhere to the standard of the platform on which they run.
And because I often switch between Linux and Windows, I like the programs to have the same UI in both, because then I don't have to learn the program twice.
So apps should both behave identically on different platforms and behave differently on each platform as per its conventions. Got it.
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@CreatedToDislikeThis said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
So apps should both behave identically on different platforms and behave differently on each platform as per its conventions. Got it.
No, I want program A to behave the same way on every OS. But it can behave differently than program B, as long as the behaviour is logical.
I don't even know what those platform conventions would be. That theres an X button to close the program and that you click on buttons in the UI?
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@Adynathos said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@CreatedToDislikeThis said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
So apps should both behave identically on different platforms and behave differently on each platform as per its conventions. Got it.
No, I want program A to behave the same way on every OS. But it can behave differently than program B, as long as the behaviour is logical.
I don't even know what those platform conventions would be. That theres an X button to close the program and that you click on buttons in the UI?
Window management buttons on the left vs right, depending on OS. Meta-key behaviors. File/etc menus. Even context menus can behave differently depending on the OS.
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@CreatedToDislikeThis said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
So apps should both behave identically on different platforms and behave differently on each platform as per its conventions. Got it.
Have everything not provided by the system be identical and don't mess with the rest.
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@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
Good to see that you aren't having a stroke.
I'm sure if he was, we'd all rush over to his house.
To get the best loot.
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@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I don't give a damn that devs are lazy.
They are not. They just have a finite amount of time. They can spend it on porting the UI to each platform, or they can spend it on adding new features.
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@ben_lubar said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@marczellm said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
Nah, th wb parts ar xplicitly a browsr.
Normally, I'd let this pass, except that those parts don't look like a browser. I mean, really, how much like a web browser does the STORE page of the Steam client look?
Well, since it connects to a CDN that I won't name, but its initials might be Akamai, and the said CDN does things that are out-of-spec for HTTP, it causes (if I don't do something to avoid it) showers of protocol alarms in my UTM, and a blank page in the client.
Their proposed solution? Turn off all stateful inspection for connections between the Steam client and the CDN. In the immortal words of XKCD 137: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.
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@izzion said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@AlexMedia
It's part of Milwaukee PC's new data saver plan. Every day they pick a random letter to strip out of anything you send to the Internet, so that you use 4% less data and save big buxx.Oh, and the best thing is that these are 4 milli-kilo-percents (in the tradition of the bandwidth or disks kb etc.), since you actually only save 3.85%!
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@marczellm said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I love this official example code:
Note: Fixed your link. I think using the JVM property swing.defaultlaf is better than code because it's configurable by users. But in any case, Oracle, please UPDATE SOME OF YOUR DOCUMENTATION for Java 7+, it's only been around for six years!
try { // Set System L&F UIManager.setLookAndFeel( UIManager.getSystemLookAndFeelClassName()); } catch (UnsupportedLookAndFeelException | ClassNotFoundException | InstantiationException | IllegalAccessException e) { // handle exception }
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@heterodox said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
I think using the JVM property swing.defaultlaf is better than code because it's configurable by users.
Where? And have you ever heard of a user that configured it? I think this belongs to the unnecessary configuration that no one will ever touch category.
try { // Set System L&F UIManager.setLookAndFeel( UIManager.getSystemLookAndFeelClassName()); } catch (UnsupportedLookAndFeelException | ClassNotFoundException | InstantiationException | IllegalAccessException e) { // handle exception }
Nah, I always
catch (Exception e) { // handle exception }
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@Adynathos said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
And because I often switch between Linux and Windows, I like the programs to have the same UI in both, because then I don't have to learn the program twice.
You are saying that you are fine with apps having controls in their windows and dialogs not in a consistent order across the platform?
Take for example a "Do you want to save changes?" question box. Windows uses "Yes, No, Cancel", while OS X uses "No, Cancel, Yes" and Linux people might be used to seeing "Cancel, Yes, No".
If you'd use three apps built by three different devs, you could see different dialog layouts every time you want to quit an app without saving your changes. Odds are that you'll quickly lose work. And no, accelerator keys might not always save your bacon. OS X has a different philosophy - where on Windows the "Y" key would let you save your changes, on OS X you would have to press Enter.
On Linux you'll just have to fuck around with systemd or Alsa first, or try hitting
:wq
to be done with it.
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@marczellm said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
Where? And have you ever heard of a user that configured it? I think this belongs to the unnecessary configuration that no one will ever touch category.
In the... Java command line? Same as all the other JVM properties? And users would change it if they wanted to change the default look and feel. That's how it works. It's a matter of preference; they don't have to.
Nah, I always
Or that.
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@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
On Linux you'll just hit
:wq
to be done with it.Liked the first joke better. :P
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@heterodox said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
On Linux you'll just hit
:wq
to be done with it.Liked the first joke better. :P
There, I restored it :P
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@marczellm said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
Nah, I always
catch (Exception e) { // handle exception }
In Java? Just make sure it's in a method
void DoStuff() throws Throwable
and be done with it
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@heterodox said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
In the... Java command line? Same as all the other JVM properties? And users would change it if they wanted to change the default look and feel. That's how it works. It's a matter of preference; they don't have to.
I mean: Given any Java Swing application (such as the Hungarian tax reporting software), do you really think that there exists even one user that is
- aware that such a thing as JVM properties exist
- interested in changing the default look and feel?
Because I think there is no such user. From a user perspective, if I even start to think about how an application looks like or how it should look like, it means the developer has done something wrong.
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@AlexMedia said in Big list of webapps masquerading as native:
You are saying that you are fine with apps having controls in their windows and dialogs not in a consistent order across the platform?
Yes, as long as controls in a given program are consistent across platforms.
I understand your position if you are used to working on a given platform and to its convention.
But since I switch often, I have a different perspective.Take for example a "Do you want to save changes?" question box. Windows uses "Yes, No, Cancel", while OS X uses "No, Cancel, Yes" and Linux people might be used to seeing "Cancel, Yes, No".
I never knew that.
But if I want to save, i will pressCTRL + S
and I want it to work regardless of OS.
If I have an editor program open, my instinct is toedit -> CTRL S
, notedit -> think on which OS I currently am -> remember the platform-specific shortcut
.If the program follows conventions by default but allows the user to change them in settings, everyone will be happy :)