Linux user-facing software usability
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@Jaloopa said in Linux user-facing software usability:
and didn't have to go beyond the second page of Google to get a result"
There's a second page?
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@masonwheeler said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@boomzilla said in Linux user-facing software usability:
So you've read it but not comprehended it.
That's rich, coming from Mr. -Grade Reading Comprehension himself! :P
Yes, it is funny because every time you level that accusation at me it's when you're demonstrating it yourself.
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@anonymous234 said in Linux user-facing software usability:
The topic was supposed to be about "user-facing software usability". Lack of hardware support is (with some exceptions, I assume) not Linux's fault.
It's not Linux's fault, but it still makes Linux user-facing software unusable. It's not my fault either that I've lost a leg, but it still makes me unable to ride a motorcycle.
@anonymous234 said in Linux user-facing software usability:
It would be a problem if the video player had some weird interface that required you to specify the audio and video codecs manually or something, or if the distribution maintainers refused to ship certain video libraries because of a personal conflict with their developers.
There was a time when Ubuntu maintainers refused to ship MP3 codecs for ideological reasons. Dunno if they still do it.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
There was a time when Ubuntu maintainers refused to ship MP3 codecs for ideological reasons. Dunno if they still do it.
The relevant patent recently expired, so there shouldn't be any ideological motivation left now.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
There was a time when Ubuntu maintainers refused to ship MP3 codecs for ideological reasons.
Are you sure you're thinking of Ubuntu? Because Ubuntu is exactly the kind of distro that doesn't give a flying shit about someone's idea of "free software", and instead simply installs all the "non-free" software necessary to make shit work.
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@antiquarian said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@Medinoc said in Linux user-facing software usability:
My only experience of Ubuntu was back in the version 5 days, when it was best summarized as "The software you want has packages for various Linux distros, but not Ubuntu".
Granted, I don't have very sophisticated needs. I just browse the internet, keep a database of my chess games, listen to my mp3 collection, and watch
pr0neducational videos on YouTube. I have a cheap Acer laptop and everything I wanted to do worked out of the box, and I didn't touch any configuration files or recompile any kernels.All I wanted to do was play Armagetron. I ended up having to compile it from sources, as well as at least one of its dependencies.
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@asdf said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
There was a time when Ubuntu maintainers refused to ship MP3 codecs for ideological reasons.
Are you sure you're thinking of Ubuntu? Because Ubuntu is exactly the kind of distro that doesn't give a flying shit about someone's idea of "free software", and instead simply installs all the "non-free" software necessary to make shit work.
I think back in version 5 that was the case. And in roughly the same days, there may have been the same problem with some other distros like Fedora, if I recall correctly my father's experience with the latter.
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@Medinoc said in Linux user-facing software usability:
And in roughly the same days, there may have been the same problem with some other distros like Fedora
AFAIK, the Fedora maintainers are still FOSS nazis. Ubuntu even licensed some commercial MP3 codec for a while. (No idea whether that's still the case.)
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@asdf said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Oh, go fuck yourself; I'm not giving any guarantees for software I didn't test myself. The fact that I refuse to lie to you doesn't make your asserting that "Lunix suxxxx" any more true.
The fact you don't trust Linux enough to make such guarantee speaks for itself. Look - I have no problem making such a guarantee for Windows. You're not calling me unreasonable for this, which kinda means you agree that Windows has a much bigger chance of working correctly OOTB than Linux - so bigger that it's reasonable to make a guarantee for Windows but it's not for Linux.
@asdf said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
There was a time when Ubuntu maintainers refused to ship MP3 codecs for ideological reasons.
Are you sure you're thinking of Ubuntu? Because Ubuntu is exactly the kind of distro that doesn't give a flying shit about someone's idea of "free software", and instead simply installs all the "non-free" software necessary to make shit work.
Yes I am sure I'm thinking of Ubuntu. The very first thing I saw after installing Ubuntu 8.04 was some
CommunistGNU Manifesto bullshit saying they didn't install MP3 codecs because it might be illegal in my country, and asking me if I want to download them separately. The second thing was failed installation of NVidia driver and monochrome desktop.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
It's not Linux's fault, but it still makes Linux user-facing software unusable. It's not my fault either that I've lost a leg, but it still makes me unable to ride a motorcycle.
This is how I feel when I have to use Windows.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
There was a time when Ubuntu maintainers refused to ship MP3 codecs for ideological reasons. Dunno if they still do it.
Those are available, just not included in the install for what I'm guessing are legal raisins. You have to add the
ubuntu-restricted-extras
package after you do the main install.@Medinoc said in Linux user-facing software usability:
All I wanted to do was play Armagetron. I ended up having to compile it from sources, as well as at least one of its dependencies.
I don't do any gaming. I freely admit that Windows machines are better for that sort of thing.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
The fact you don't trust Linux enough to make such guarantee speaks for itself. Look - I have no problem making such a guarantee for Windows.
It sounds ludicrous, though. People here have talked about problems, either right after installing or after an update where crazy shit like drives being unusable or erased.
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@masonwheeler said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@boomzilla And yet what @anonymous234 said doesn't happen is exactly what happened.
We have multiple Raspberry Pis in the house running OSMC to stream movies from a Drobo without issue. They play all of our movies, no problem and setup was pretty pain free. I mean, my father who is in his 70's would not have been able to do it, at all. But, any person who is slightly above average on computer literacy should be able to do it.
That is despite the verifiable fact that OSMC devs hate all of their users.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
The very first thing I saw after installing Ubuntu 8.04 was some
CommunistGNU Manifesto bullshit saying they didn't install MP3 codecs because it might be illegal in my country, and asking me if I want to download them separately.So protecting themselves from lawsuits and offering you an easy option to get what you want is "communist bullshit" to you.
Wow, you're not only an asshole, but also an idiot.
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@wharrgarbl said in Linux user-facing software usability:
If you want to bash linux desktop usability
Desktop Linux is a tired topic though...you know what's fun? Laughing at the dozen failed Smartphone Linux distributions!
All of them backed by rich companies and proclaimed to be the future of mobile computing, all of them utter failures. Just like every other user-facing Linux system actually.
Yes, Android is a huge success, but that just proves my point... it uses Linux as the kernel, but the "front-end" part couldn't be any less Linux-like: virtual machines, extremely object oriented, an actual permissions system...
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
The fact you don't trust Linux enough to make such guarantee speaks for itself. Look - I have no problem making such a guarantee for Windows. You're not calling me unreasonable for this, which kinda means you agree that Windows has a much bigger chance of working correctly OOTB than Linux - so bigger that it's reasonable to make a guarantee for Windows but it's not for Linux.
OK, here's the thing. Everyone who sells hardware and software has a big incentive to make sure it works with Windows: they won't sell any if it doesn't. This incentive doesn't exist with Linux because the user population is so much lower. And that is the reason a guarantee is possible for Windows but not for Linux.
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@Gąska I have this Realtek 802.11 n wifi adapter you might want to try on Windows.
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@Captain said in Linux user-facing software usability:
[…] wifi adapter you might want to try on Windows
That reminds me of the time all Realtek devices in my mother's PC stopped working after accidentally upgrading a 2-year-old PC to Windows 10. *sigh* The driver situation on Windows sure sucked back in those days…
…Oh, wait, that was last year? Shit, that must mean I did something wrong, because according to @Gaska that's impossible!
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@asdf said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Fedora maintainers are still FOSS nazis
One neckbeard stereotype meets another.
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Interestingly, I was never able to get Ubuntu variants working right on any hardware I owned after trying on and off for a few years.
The only distro that's ever worked well immediately was OpenSuse.
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@boomzilla @Captain @asdf yes, compatibility problems happen on Windows too. But they happen rare enough they haven't become a meme despite there being at least 90 times more Windows than Unix installations in any given country. Also, Windows problems are more often configuration problems rather than inability to work at all, which means OS reinstall fixes 99% of them.
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@Magus said in Linux user-facing software usability:
I was never able to get Ubuntu variants working right on any hardware I owned after trying on and off for a few years.
I've tried live CDs a few times in the last 10 years and always had some sort of issue. Installing off USB or a virtual disc on a VM or spare partition has generally gone OK until I run into one problem or another that reminds me why I can never be bothered with Linux
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@Jaloopa The thing I liked in OpenSuse (I used the KDE variant) was that you don't ever have to mess with configs, because yast is a pretty good Control Panel, and downloading the NVidia RPM is incredibly easy.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Also, Windows problems are more often configuration problems rather than inability to work at all, which means OS reinstall fixes 99% of them.
Thanks for going there. It's just the next step in "Did you try turning it off and then turning it on?"
"No one knows what when wrong and there's really no way to fix it. Just reinstall!"
@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
yes, compatibility problems happen on Windows too. But they happen rare enough they haven't become a meme despite there being at least 90 times more Windows than Unix installations in any given country.
But having to reinstall Windows is a meme.
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@boomzilla first, "...but at least it fixes it." The same really can't be said for non-functional Linux installs.
Second, for all the meme-ness of it, the last time I actually had to reinstall Windows was in 2010, on XP. Some memes outlive their relevance.
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@masonwheeler said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Second, for all the meme-ness of it, the last time I actually had to reinstall Windows was in 2010, on XP. Some memes outlive their relevance.
OK, but I watch video on Linux all the time and other people around here talk about reinstalling Windows when they want to upgrade Visual Studio!
This meme has a lot of life left in her.
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@dcon said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@Jaloopa said in Linux user-facing software usability:
and didn't have to go beyond the second page of Google to get a result"
There's a second page?
Yes, but only because they haven't invented infini-scroll yet.
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@boomzilla said in Linux user-facing software usability:
OK, but I watch video on Linux all the time and other people around here talk about reinstalling Windows when they want to upgrade Visual Studio!
Likewise, I just upgraded Visual Studio the other day with a single click (three clicks if you include launching updater) and no problems whatsoever. While other people around here talk about not being able to play video on Linux. Anecdotal evidence at its finest!
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@boomzilla said in Linux user-facing software usability:
talk about reinstalling Windows when they want to upgrade Visual Studio!
No, that's when we want to remove Visual Studio.
edit: ... completely.
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@dcon Same difference.
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@boomzilla said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@dcon Same difference.
Nope. Upgrading "just works". Installing a new version "just works". Side-by-side "just works". Removing an old version? That's special because it leaves hundreds (ok, just dozens) of packages installed. (Note: I have successfully done it - carefully uninstalling in the correct order - anything related to VS. And then reinstalling the VS version I want. It's not for the weak-of-heart.)
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@dcon said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@boomzilla said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@dcon Same difference.
Nope. Upgrading "just works". Installing a new version "just works". Side-by-side "just works". Removing an old version? That's special because it leaves hundreds (ok, just dozens) of packages installed. (Note: I have successfully done it - carefully uninstalling in the correct order - anything related to VS. And then reinstalling the VS version I want. It's not for the weak-of-heart.)
Yeah, I get it. Like I said, it's just as good for my point. People also futz with obscure config files on Linux when they don't really need to.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@anonymous234 said in Linux user-facing software usability:
The fact is that most mainstream Linux distros actually work pretty well on most modern hardware
Can you name at least one distro where I can just pick any 2015-and-up Intel CPU, NVidia GPU and mobo with Realtek soundcard, plug it up, install OS and you guarantee that everything, everything works out of the box with zero messing with configs? Because I can guarantee that with Windows.
Define "everything." Because with that one word, you can now pick some oddball bullshit that wont work anywhere to prove your point.
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@masonwheeler said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Maybe they ought to make it into one?
Companies like Ouya have been trying for years to make Android set-top boxes. So far they haven't really gelled, but honestly they probably well sooner or later.
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@anonymous234 said in Linux user-facing software usability:
90% of the time it's because of bad hardware drivers or limited support for proprietary/patented formats, and that's not their fault.
Microsoft and Apple those exact same problems, and somehow they make it work.
It's almost as if there's problems in the world you can't solve with a Git pull request, you actually have to get on the phone and talk to other human beings. Hm.
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@gwowen said in Linux user-facing software usability:
If "Just works" means "works perfectly on every conceivable hardware and OS setup everytime", then I don't think any software ever written anywhere qualifies.
The term was coined on Mac Classic which did, indeed, "just work". I'm sure you've never used it, since you like Linux you obviously have zero exposure to a truly well-designed usable system, but just trust me on this one.
The switch to a Unix-based OS made Apple's fans use "just works" as more of a idealized goal than a statement of fact.
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@blakeyrat said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Microsoft and Apple those exact same problems,
I think you accidentally a word or two there...
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@asdf said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@masonwheeler "Kinda" because BluRays won't work OOTB.
Those don't work on my Windows at all. Windows apparently just thinks it's a disk with weird files on it.
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@Gąska said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@anonymous234 said in Linux user-facing software usability:
The fact is that most mainstream Linux distros actually work pretty well on most modern hardware
Can you name at least one distro where I can just pick any 2015-and-up Intel CPU, NVidia GPU and mobo with Realtek soundcard, plug it up, install OS and you guarantee that everything, everything works out of the box with zero messing with configs? Because I can guarantee that with Windows.
Windows 7. Had to go to this website that looks like it's from the 80s just to get the network card working. Guess what's hard to do when you need the network card working?
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@blakeyrat said in Linux user-facing software usability:
@gwowen said in Linux user-facing software usability:
If "Just works" means "works perfectly on every conceivable hardware and OS setup everytime", then I don't think any software ever written anywhere qualifies.
The term was coined on Mac Classic which did, indeed, "just work". I'm sure you've never used it, since you like Linux you obviously have zero exposure to a truly well-designed usable system, but just trust me on this one.
The switch to a Unix-based OS made Apple's fans use "just works" as more of a idealized goal than a statement of fact.
MSX just worked. Even MS-DOS just worked. Soon we'll have TVs and toasters that don't just work.
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@wharrgarbl said in Linux user-facing software usability:
MSX just worked. Even MS-DOS just worked. Soon we'll have TVs and toasters that don't just work.
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone."
-- Bjarne Stroustrup
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@wharrgarbl said in Linux user-facing software usability:
If you want to bash linux desktop usability, at least pick something reproduceable in a popular desktop distro. Try making a $20 media server with Windows too.
The real problem is "why would you do that at all?"
You can get a Roku for that price, and they've already done the legwork to make everything as easy as possible. Only a badly reality-distorted Linux fan would think making their own with a [fruit]-Pi is a better option.
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@boomzilla said in Linux user-facing software usability:
OK, but I watch video on Linux all the time and other people around here talk about reinstalling Windows when they want to upgrade Visual Studio!
This forum has a lot of idiots on it, sorry to break this to you.
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@blakeyrat said in Linux user-facing software usability:
You can get a Roku for that price
A quick Google search suggests otherwise, advertising prices between $40 and $110.
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@wharrgarbl said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Even MS-DOS just worked.
This is a joke in a terrible Leisure Suit Larry knock-off game about how difficult it is to configure your computer to run same terrible Leisure Suit Larry knock-off game.
(Les Manly: Lost in LA, if you're curious.)
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@blakeyrat said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Microsoft and Apple those exact same problems, and somehow they make it work.
Like I was saying, hardware vendors have a strong incentive to make sure their stuff works with Windows (or else no one will buy it). That incentive doesn't exist with Linux, since the market is smaller. It's not because Microsoft and Apple care so much more about users; it's more a matter of them being able to get hardware vendors to do the work.
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@antiquarian said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Like I was saying, hardware vendors have a strong incentive to make sure their stuff works with Windows (or else no one will buy it).
Ok but you're not backing away from the problem far enough. You need to get away from "assigning blame" so you can see "solving problem".
Why doesn't Linux have that same incentive?
@antiquarian said in Linux user-facing software usability:
It's not because Microsoft and Apple care so much more about users; it's more a matter of them being able to get hardware vendors to do the work.
What should Linux be doing to encourage vendors to do more of the work?
(I can gift you one idea: introduce a stable driver ABI to the kernel, like competing OSes have. Here's another: create better development tools so Linux debuggers are as easy-to-use as those on Windows. Here's a revolutionary one that's a lot of work and probably will never happen: create a wrapper that can "wrap" a Windows driver into the Linux driver ABI. Allow developers to write drivers in memory-managed languages, so they're finished in half the time or with half the developers. Etc.)
There's an alternative approach, which is the one Linux is taking now, which is they take control of all the work of creating drivers, but demonstrably that isn't working as well.
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@Polygeekery said in Linux user-facing software usability:
my father who is in his 70's would not have been able to do it, at all. But, any person who is slightly above average on computer literacy should be able to do it.
My father is both. Where does he fit into this line of reasoning?
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@Gurth Same with my grandfather. :P
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@blakeyrat said in Linux user-facing software usability:
Why doesn't Linux have that same incentive?
I told you why: not enough people use it. I'm not sure that's really fixable because:
@blakeyrat said in Linux user-facing software usability:
What should Linux be doing to encourage vendors to do more of the work?
There's not really anything you can do to encourage vendors to care about maybe 2% of the market, particularly when said 2% has a reputation, deserved or not, of not wanting to spend money.