Turkish Coup
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
If the only tool you have to remove it is your tongue, probably for the best.
Yeah, that's what happens when you let illogical bleeding-heart arguments tie your hands.
Syrian refugees are just trying to get away from the violence.
Too bad the people making it to Europe are violent Egyptians, Somolians, and Saudis.
Oh, yes, go tell France it was all for the best.
I'm sure that'll bring people's families back.
"A few of you will have to die, if we are to solve everyone else's problems for them. But, it's for a good cause."
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
illogical [...] arguments
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Syrian refugees are [...] Egyptians, Somolians, and Saudis.
OK then.
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
OK then.
It's not the Syrians that are the problem.
In almost every case of "refugee violence" in the news, it's been either pre-existing refugees or Somolians
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@xaade "We can't take in Syrians because those Egyptians are always so violent" makes no more sense than "We should take in Syrians so let's throw our borders wide open and admit everyone brown".
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
@dse said in Turkish Coup:
Saudi Arabia, which indirectly makes them US/UK/EU-backed terrorists!
Don't worry, Hillary and Obama course corrected on that.
With the Fast and Furious 2: Middle East drift... they're all US backed now.
This is actually quite bi-partisan. Oil money and all. I CBA to find the photos of Bush(es), .. with the Suadi family all snugly and happy
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
"We can't take in Syrians because those Egyptians are always so violent" makes no more sense than "We should take in Syrians so let's throw our borders wide open and admit everyone brown".
Did I say either of those?
You know, there's such a thing as passports and ids and all kinds of ways to tell the difference.
Not excluding the fact that Somolians look completely different from Syrians...
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@dse said in Turkish Coup:
This is actually quite bi-partisan. Oil money and all. I CBA to find the photos of Bush(es), .. with the Suadi family all snugly and happy
Oh..... so now it's all ok.... now that Obama has done it, it's all grand.
I was against Bush being friendly with Saudi, Bill with PLO, and now Obama with ISIS.
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You said, and I quote:
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Yeah, that's what happens when you let illogical bleeding-heart arguments tie your hands.
Syrian refugees are just trying to get away from the violence.
Too bad the people making it to Europe are violent Egyptians, Somolians, and Saudis.So... "illogical bleeding-heart arguments" like what, exactly?
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
@xaade "We can't take in Syrians because those Egyptians are always so violent" makes no more sense than "We should take in Syrians so let's throw our borders wide open and admit everyone brown".
Also: Violence always happens for exactly zero reasons.
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
So... "illogical bleeding-heart arguments" like what, exactly?
@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
"We should take in Syrians so let's throw our borders wide open and admit everyone brown".
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@xaade Oh, you're battling strawmen again
I never can tell what the hell you're on about
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
@dse said in Turkish Coup:
This is actually quite bi-partisan. Oil money and all. I CBA to find the photos of Bush(es), .. with the Suadi family all snugly and happy
Oh..... so now it's all ok.... now that Obama has done it, it's all grand.
Did I say it is Ok? I said both parties are very much pro Saudis, fuck them both
and now Obama with ISIS.
Since I moved to Seattle I have tried a few different weeds, neither of them works on me 
care to tell me where you get your dope?
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Oh, no one is saying that.... right...
Here's someone saying that the borders need to be open despite the violence because free-travel...
The rightfully vaulted European principle of free movement—enshrined by the Schengen agreement—is at least temporarily threatened as nations establish border controls along frontiers where no customs or passport controls had been required, in many areas for two decades. When Germany, just days after stating that all refugees were welcome, re-established passport controls along its Austrian border, the commentariat cried, “But Schengen!” As such, the arrival of record numbers of refugees appears to be revealing the fragility of liberal project Europe.
It’s an easy enough narrative to buy when border restrictions thought long gone from the European model are reasserting themselves. Certainly, this is no good thing when more borders need tearing down, not more erected. But if we locate a great crisis in the albeit problematic interventions on free movement of refugees within the continent now, we’re telling ourselves a dangerous fairytale about Europe.Oh, boo hoo. The rest of the EU is putting up border checks because Greece failed to even make a passing glance at passports.
http://fusion.net/story/203200/we-should-stop-saying-that-europe-is-facing-a-refugee-crisis/
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@dse said in Turkish Coup:
Since I moved to Seattle I have tried a few different weeds, neither of them works on me care to tell me where you get your dope?
If Obama is really intended to fight ISIS.... then he's either been high this whole time, or he's got everyone fooled.
Handing out guns to "freedom fighters" and then lamenting how ISIS got the weapons.
Blaming Bush for collateral damage, then using drones to kill 60 people just to kill 1 person.He's been the best thing ISIS has ever had. He legitimized their cause, armed them, and more.
It got so fucking bad that Putin came in and looked like a hero fighting ISIS in comparison.
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@xaade OK then. If you're going to respond to something entirely unrelated to the topic at hand, that nobody in this thread is saying, knock yourself out, but I'm going to call it a strawman. Especially when it's misrepresented: your quote is a point of view that holds open borders as a good in itself, which is... well, it's a point of view I suppose, but it has nothing to do with feeling bad for Syrian refugees and/or their purported motives in travelling.
And absolutely none of this has to do with whether it's sometimes better to endure a bad situation than to employ a worse fix. I'm still waiting for where you're going with all this.
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
everything to do with feeling bad for Syrian refugees and their purported motives.
You just wondered where I got, "open all borders and let in all brown people, because feelings"
And you just described someone saying just that.
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@xaade That sentence got garbled as I was interrupted mid-sentence, I went back and edited. Sorry about that
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
The rest of the EU is putting up border checks because Greece failed to even make a passing glance at passports.
I've seen reports claiming that a majority of so-called refugees are really economic migrants. No idea how accurate they are, but I'm sure there's a fair amount of that.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
It got so fucking bad that Putin came in and looked like a hero fighting ISIS in comparison.
Putin and Iran. Yes tell me about your hero
you know they have the best of intentions in mind!
Saddam is bad bad, go to war -> done by an idiot
Taliban is bad bad, go to war - > done by an idiot
Qadafi is bad bad, go to war
Egypt is bad bad kills peaceful demonstrators, go to war
Iran is bad bad, go to war
Russia invaded Ukrain, go to war
Syria is bad bad, go to war, no wait their opposition is bad bad, go to war with them too, no wait ...
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
illogical bleeding-heart arguments
…
I'm sure that'll bring people's families back.
"A few of you will have to die, if we are to solve everyone else's problems for them. But, it's for a good cause"
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Oh, no one is saying that.... right...
Here's someone saying that the borders need to be open despite the violence because free-travel...
The rightfully vaulted European principle of free movement—enshrined by the Schengen agreement—is at least temporarily threatened as nations establish border controls along frontiers where no customs or passport controls had been required, in many areas for two decades. When Germany, just days after stating that all refugees were welcome, re-established passport controls along its Austrian border, the commentariat cried, “But Schengen!” As such, the arrival of record numbers of refugees appears to be revealing the fragility of liberal project Europe.
It’s an easy enough narrative to buy when border restrictions thought long gone from the European model are reasserting themselves. Certainly, this is no good thing when more borders need tearing down, not more erected. But if we locate a great crisis in the albeit problematic interventions on free movement of refugees within the continent now, we’re telling ourselves a dangerous fairytale about Europe.Oh, boo hoo. The rest of the EU is putting up border checks because Greece failed to even make a passing glance at passports.
http://fusion.net/story/203200/we-should-stop-saying-that-europe-is-facing-a-refugee-crisis/
@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
@xaade OK then. If you're going to respond to something entirely unrelated to the topic at hand, that nobody in this thread is saying, knock yourself out, but I'm going to call it a strawman. Especially when it's misrepresented: your quote is a point of view that holds open borders as a good in itself, which is... well, it's a point of view I suppose, but it has nothing to do with feeling bad for Syrian refugees and/or their purported motives in travelling.
And absolutely none of this has to do with whether it's sometimes better to endure a bad situation than to employ a worse fix. I'm still waiting for where you're going with all this.
Huh, my impression is that the author is advocating a more US-like model, where there is (almost?) absolute free movement between the member states. The US still has a peripheral border without free movement.
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@Dreikin That's probably a fair summation; I didn't read the link, just the quote he pulled out. I don't really want to waste much time on this random Xaade digression. Either way, it's not "let in all brown people"; it's either "Everyone shuld have global freedom of movement" or "Freedom within the EU"
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@dse said in Turkish Coup:
go to war
Stuff just festers and gets worse if we go to war. I think the proper solution at this point is just to periodically level the region as required.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
so-called refugees are really economic migrants
If they're interested in making their life better, and they can do it without just being a burden on the social system, then go for it.
It's only a problem when "economic migrants" means welfare squatters.
But, I'm confident at least some are, especially given the videos where they were protesting their hotel accommodations.
The big problem in the EU is that they promised to distribute the responsibility of housing refugees, but Greece failed to provide good security at their borders. So, EU members started their own border checks and started punting them back to Greece, who was complaining about not having the resources, even though they've been said to be lax on borders due to being sympathetic.
However, their sympathies put German and French citizens at risk.
But, whenever UK started wanting out, all of the sudden, UK is racist.
But even that's not the whole problem.
You see, there's a system in place to ensure these checks, however it's not stopping someone from rowing up a boat on the shore and walking in, and that's been a problem too.
The Syrians have tried their best to do it right, and others are taking advantage of the situation, making Syrians look bad.
How is that directly related to Turkey?
It's the same argument.
"We have to stay in the EU no matter how bad, because it'll get dirty if we do something about the problem."
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@dse said in Turkish Coup:
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
It got so fucking bad that Putin came in and looked like a hero fighting ISIS in comparison.
Putin and Iran. Yes tell me about your hero
you know they have the best of intentions in mind!
Saddam is bad bad, go to war -> done by an idiot
Taliban is bad bad, go to war - > done by an idiot
Qadafi is bad bad, go to war
Egypt is bad bad kills peaceful demonstrators, go to war
Iran is bad bad, go to war
Russia invaded Ukrain, go to war
Syria is bad bad, go to war, no wait their opposition is bad bad, go to war with them too, no wait ...I've been saying that the whole time.
If people didn't see Obama saying "I have ISIS contained" and didn't picture a "mission accomplished" banner in the background, I'm sorry, they can't be helped.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
It's only a problem when "economic migrants" means welfare squatters.
Not true. Assuming they want to work (which I think most economic migrants do, because they want to send money back to relatives back home) probably show up and compete with the bottom end of the labor market, thus creating a welfare problem, likely among the people who previously occupied that rung of the market. Because they've just increased supply, price of labor has been reduced and they're more willing to take that rate, which is probably a raise for them than existing labor is willing to take a cut.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
How is that directly related to Turkey?
Yeah! Get the fuck out of my Turkish coup thread.
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@boomzilla Yes, it does affect salary of citizens, but so does a fresh batch of graduate students.
This isn't the problem, it's just a symptom of the problem.
The problem is our insistence that going without a cell phone is equivalent to not having a living wage.
You can solve the send money home problem by putting a terrible tariff on wires out of the country.
But you know... those darned trade agreements...
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
@boomzilla Yes, it does affect salary of citizens, but so does a fresh batch of graduate students.
Yes, and maybe if you only had one or the other...also a fresh batch of graduates is less likely to be all at the bottom of the wage ladder. Just admit that your statement was wrong. Wrong. WRONG.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
You can solve the send money home problem by putting a terrible tariff on wires out of the country.
Bullshit.
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It's clear to me that we're either going to have open borders or we aren't.
If we want to have them, you get all the problems you're complaining about.
If we don't to have them, and the argument is jobs, then we have a lot more problems to solve, like Nafta Tpp etc.
The living wage problem isn't a problem for people that are willing to fit five families in a small house.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
If we don't to have them, and the argument is jobs, then we have a lot more problems to solve, like Nafta Tpp etc.
Doubtful. If anything those agreements probably help. It's the welfare stuff that kills you with open borders.
@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
The living wage problem isn't a problem for people that are willing to fit five families in a small house.
This is certainly true and describes many of my neighbors. It's crazy but I guess better than being in Central America.
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Word is that the Turks have now closed access to the NATO base at Incirlik, as well as shut down its external power supply. Oh, and on that base are nuclear weapons. Between that and Erdogan's demand for the U.S. to deport Gulen to Turkey... well, seems like Glorious Leader has a decision to make. He'll do the right thing, I'm sure.
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@Yamikuronue said in Turkish Coup:
"We can't take in Syrians because those Egyptians are always so violent"
It doesn't help when the people who are calling for massive influx of people won't admit that many of them are neither refugees nor Syrians.
Conflating two things is something you see a lot of, like people who pretend there are no illegal immigrants, and just call people who oppose unrestricted immigration "anti-immigrant".
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
Because they've just increased supply, price of labor has been reduced and they're more willing to take that rate, which is probably a raise for them than existing labor is willing to take a cut.
I think that may not be an entirely accurate assumption to make.
Firstly, there is only so far the rate can drop until it gets lower than the welfare payments, at which point there is very little incentive for you to work.
Secondly, many of the migrants find that they will actually be paid less than in their home country. Look at some of the photos, some of them have a better phone than I do. They certainly weren't some poor goat herders back home. The smugglers, who they paid good money to, promised them a paradise on earth and now they're suddenly living in a tent with 10 other people.
A few months back the Czech Republic flew in a few Christian families from Iraq because they were persecuted. Or, more accurately, a non-profit entirely funded by the Czech government did. One of the "refugees" called the provided housing, a flat about 10 times bigger than the one I grew up in, a "cowshed" because back home they had a villa. To escape this tyranny, they tried to seek refuge in Germany but were stopped at the border. If I'm not mistaken, the majority has returned to Iraq. In the end this was nothing but a gigantic tax-funded virtue signal.
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@Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:
Look at some of the photos, some of them have a better phone than I do.
Sure, for some of them, that's true. But this has already happened here in the US and I think it's happening in Europe, too, now that Qaddafi is no longer keeping sub-Sahara Africa out of Europe.
@Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:
A few months back the Czech Republic flew in a few Christian families from Iraq because they were persecuted.
These people are not the economic migrants I was talking about.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
These people are not the economic migrants I was talking about.
So what kind of migrants are they? They clearly could not have been persecuted that badly if they turned around and went back.
Note that I'm fully aware that there are Christians who are persecuted, that only makes this whole farce worse.
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@Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:
So what kind of migrants are they?
Refugees. Economic migrants are people leaving purely because they figure they can improve their life economically, not because they're persecuted. Like..poor wetbacks coming into the US from Mexico or sub-Saharan Africans coming to Europe in order to send money back home.
My point was that these people disrupt the country that they come to in ways other than simply becoming welfare deadweight.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
But, whenever UK started wanting out, all of the sudden, UK is racist.
You think that might, possibly, have something to do with a bunch of English people being blatantly racist?
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@Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:
Clearly not if they went back.
Ok...liars? I dunno. You said they emigrated due to persecution. Let me know when you figure it out and I'll tell you what's up.
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@boomzilla That's what the non-profit claimed. Please try to keep your mind-reading software up to date...
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@Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:
Please try to keep your mind-reading software up to date...
Can you send me a link to the PPA?
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
I think the proper solution at this point is just to periodically level the region as required.
If by 'region' you mean the zone in the plane of the elliptic between 89 and 95 AU from Sol, I'm all for that.
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@ScholRLEA said in Turkish Coup:
If by 'region' you mean the zone in the plane of the elliptic between 89 and 95 AU from Sol, I'm all for that.
Seems like that would harsh my current mellow. Fuck you.
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Shit, i saw this thread and thought it happened again.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
Oh, yes, go tell France it was all for the best.
The only reason this one has been called a "terrorist" attack is because the bloke was brown. No links to terrorist organisations (although the police knew about him as he was a wife-beater), didn't go to the mosque, drank, fed his children pork... If it had happened in america, he'd have had a gun and it all would have been forgotten about by the next morning.
There's far more terrorist attacks in the US than there are in Europe, let alone random mass shootings. I'll take my chances over here.
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@Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:
To escape this tyranny, they tried to seek refuge in Germany but were stopped at the border. If I'm not mistaken, the majority has returned to Iraq. In the end this was nothing but a gigantic tax-funded virtue signal.
Son of a ....
You know, there actually are Christians that are terribly persecuted.
Like, I'm talking bodies ripped apart in a scene out of some psychotic thriller.
Or having their whole church shot up.
Or, the most benign, having to deal with three mosques surrounding their church and blasting impossible to overcome music all day long. Making it impossible to lead their own services, which is basically a crude way of denying freedom of religion.
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@tufty said in Turkish Coup:
There's far more terrorist attacks in the US than there are in Europe, let alone random mass shootings. I'll take my chances over here.
- Only if you look at gun stats.
- If you like the idea of squealing like a pig in a corner because there's shit-all you can do, or even the cops can do... fine. I mean, you're basically waiting for swat to suit up where you are.
A large percentage of potential tragedies are prevented over here because one good guy had a gun.
And, most of our shooting are like semi-rifles and pistols.
When it happens in Europe, you're almost guaranteed it's fully automatics and tactical gear. Because, if you're breaking gun law, go big.
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@xaade said in Turkish Coup:
You know, there actually are Christians that are terribly persecuted.
@Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:
Note that I'm fully aware that there are Christians who are persecuted, that only makes this whole farce worse.
To elaborate a bit, if you want to help somebody, make sure you help somebody who actually needs the help. Giving free plane tickets to a bunch of rich people who just happen to be Christian is not the way to go.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
Economic migrants are people leaving purely because they figure they can improve their life economically, not because they're persecuted.
Yeah, life is exactly that simple. Muslims are just living a jolly good life out there with the only problem being a bit too little money, and the only reason they'd try to get out of there is either to get more money, or blow up some white folks, depending on the media's mood today. Not at all because IS is blowing shit up left and right exactly in those Muslim countries without really caring about anyone who's not with them, and "improving their life economically" means "actually having a home that maybe won't be blown to smithereens".
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