Turkish Coup
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No links to terrorist organisations (although the police knew about him as he was a wife-beater), didn't go to the mosque, drank, fed his children pork
Well at least he was doing one thing by the words of the Quran (there are plenty of passages in the Quran that encourage beating your wife).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc0hg9w3aDY
In any event. A lot of terrorist groups recruit guys like that chap who committed this attack by saying "Yeah you are a bad Muslim, but if you martyr yourself for Allah all these sins will be forgiven."
Most significantly, perhaps, is that Isis offers instant redemption. Unlike Al Qaeda-affiliated groups, who are looking for the pure of heart, the Islamic State is the great redeemer. It doesn’t matter if you were a drug dealer, an alcoholic, a prostitute or a non-Muslim; Isis will absolve you of your sins and offer you a sense of belonging. This is an avenue of acceptance for some who struggle to find it anywhere else.
Analysing the Isis playbook: How to turn desktop warriors into jihadis
For all its brutality and barbarism, Isis continues to attract new recruits from all over the world – including several from South Africa. Its most potent propaganda tool is its sophisticated use of social media, and its unparalleled ability to persuade sympathisers – particularly the young and...
There is a lot of gangs in the US that offer similar sense of belonging to those that are basically very broken people.
BTW I don't think all Islamic clerics are like this, Mufti Menk for example seems quite a decent chap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmxaSHA7xNs
EDIT: Clarity and sources.
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@Dreikin The smiley face and the wink was a indication of the fact that I was joking slightly about similar disagreements. I tend to use the term Europe and the EU interchangeably and I will correct my language as it isn't accurate.
Joking aside, The BBC recently said that one of the reasons why the UK hasn't had terrorists attacks like France is because we aren't part of the free movement area. Thank you for mocking me kindly :)
It's no accident that this country has not yet endured a Paris, Brussels or Nice. Britain's defences against terrorist attack depend not just on the watery buffer of the English Channel and our non-membership of Schengen - Europe's border-free area. Crucially they also rely on the way in which intelligence is now intimately shared between all the agencies: the Security Service (MI5), MI6, GCHQ - and the police. This is the key to keeping Britain safe - although it's by no means guaranteed.
How Britain has been kept safe for a decade
The lessons on intelligence-sharing learned after 7/7 may be one reason that the UK has been more fortunate than France in avoiding terror attacks, says the BBC's Peter Taylor.
I won't lie and say that is the only thing, but it is part of it for sure.
I've never traveled much in Europe (mostly Asia, Africa and the Middle East) but border checks are basically is like a filter. It is a first line of checking whether someone is who they say they are. I've had much more invasive checks when applying to Portland Down.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
Crucially they also rely on the way in which intelligence is now intimately shared between all the agencies: the Security Service (MI5), MI6, GCHQ - and the police. This is the key to keeping Britain safe - although it's by no means guaranteed.
I wonder how much the experience of dealing with the Irish has translated into successful security against radical Islam?
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
Joking aside, The BBC recently said that one of the reasons why the UK hasn't had terrorists attacks like France is because we aren't part of the free movement area. Thank you for mocking me kindly :)
It's no accident that this country has not yet endured a Paris, Brussels or Nice. Britain's defences against terrorist attack depend not just on the watery buffer of the English Channel and our non-membership of Schengen - Europe's border-free area. Crucially they also rely on the way in which intelligence is now intimately shared between all the agencies: the Security Service (MI5), MI6, GCHQ - and the police. This is the key to keeping Britain safe - although it's by no means guaranteed.
They do realize that those guys didn't need Schengen to get into the country?
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@boomzilla I honestly wouldn't know. But I have interviewed at places like Portland Down and they absolutely check out everything about you. I used to joke (it seems really fucking dumb now) that they check if you are gay because part of the HR process was putting me in front of a young woman who had ridiculous cleavage.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
The BBC recently said that one of the reasons why the UK hasn't had terrorists attacks like France is because we aren't part of the free movement area.
The more comprehensive sharing of information between the various security services probably is actually relevant, and that appears to be something that the French are proving particularly bad at. OTOH, there's other likely reasons that add into why France is having big problems, such as just how badly they've fucked up the integration of immigrants and pretended that there was no problem at all for years. Life would be great if there was always just one simple answer to everything, but reality's usually about lots of problems coming together all at once…
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@Rhywden I am sure they didn't that is why the BBC said it wasn't just to do with the fact that we aren't in Schengen ... I also said this
I won't lie and say that is the only thing, but it is part of it for sure.
Known dodgy people are going to get flagged and the relevant intelligence services informed.
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@lucas1 Why exactly is it "part of it" when it didn't play a role in the recent attacks?
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@Rhywden Because we didn't have those attacks in the UK, the title of the piece that I linked was basically saying why we haven't had such attacks.
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@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
The more comprehensive sharing of information between the various security services probably is actually relevant, and that appears to be something that the French are proving particularly bad at.
It seems like something you only get good at after getting burned.
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@dkf I completely agree. It is very complicated.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden Because we didn't have those attacks in the UK, the title of the piece that I linked was basically saying why we haven't had such attacks.
Are you trying to join the Circular Reasoning Club?
You: "We didn't have those attacks partly because of Schengen."
Me: "Schengen didn't really play into those attacks. Why would it be part of the reasons?"
You: "Because we didn't have such attacks!"
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I said ..
I've never traveled much in Europe (mostly Asia, Africa and the Middle East) but border checks are basically is like a filter. It is a first line of checking whether someone is who they say they are. I've had much more invasive checks when applying to Portland Down.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
I said ..
I've never traveled much in Europe (mostly Asia, Africa and the Middle East) but border checks are basically is like a filter. It is a first line of checking whether someone is who they say they are. I've had much more invasive checks when applying to Portland Down.
Yes. The guy from Nizza? French citizen.
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@Rhywden The French being there was ended before he was born.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden He was originally for Tunisia and the French being there was ended before he was born.
I hate to tell you this: You do know that Schengen does not encompass Tunisia, right?
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@Rhywden The chap regularly traveled between the two countries.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden The chap regularly traveled between the two countries.
Which part of "Tunisia is not part of Schengen" was too complicated for you?
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
It seems like something you only get good at after getting burned.
Might be. OTOH, it's not like there's been no attacks by islamic nutcases in the UK, though they don't seem to have been many ISIS attacks per se. It might be something that really takes a working generation of living with potential attacks for the bureaucracy to really get the hang of handling these things right.
Which doesn't bode all that well for the US I suppose. You've not had anything like the level of terrorist activity directed at you to encourage the security types to really put aside inter-service rivalries for the greater good of all citizens. (Whether that ever happens I don't know, but being under external attack does encourage people to remember what really matters.)
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@Rhywden I wasn't saying it was part of that area you fucking moron. I said he traveled between the two countries. FFS.
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@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
Which doesn't bode all that well for the US I suppose. You've not had anything like the level of terrorist activity directed at you to encourage the security types to really put aside inter-service rivalries for the greater good of all citizens.
True, though 9/11 was a big wake up call, and at least some of the explicit legal barriers were addressed. I couldn't say how well stuff is shared, but it's certainly interesting that the NYPD, for instance, has its own international intelligence apparatus.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden I wasn't saying it was part of that area you fucking moron. I said he traveled between the two countries. FFS.
You: "We didn't have those attacks partly because of Schengen."
Me: "Schengen didn't really play into those attacks. Why would it be part of the reasons?"
You: "Because we didn't have such attacks!"
Me: "That's circular reasoning."
You: "Well, he travelled a lot! To Tunisia."
Me: "That's not part of Schengen."You may have missed the part where I'm solely about this veiled EU-bashing blaming Schengen. So, any more Strawmen or moving goalposts you want to throw at me?
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@Maciejasjmj said in Turkish Coup:
@blek said in Turkish Coup:
Czech Republic
Well duh, if you're going to detain them and charge them for that, you shouldn't really be surprised.
Hey, you know how you can tell a shitty article?
Title: "Czech Republic under fire for 'stripping refugees to take their money to pay for their involuntary detention'"
Caption under the first photo: "Refugees look through a window at refugee's detention camp in eastern Slovakia"
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@Rhywden I think tbh you should try reading everything again and then having a think. Because the last part you are clearly not doing.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
True, though 9/11 was a big wake up call, and at least some of the explicit legal barriers were addressed. I couldn't say how well stuff is shared, but it's certainly interesting that the NYPD, for instance, has its own international intelligence apparatus.
I don't think you're as badly placed now as the French. But there's probably going to be some pretty horrible incidents along the way towards persuading sharing to go in all the directions it needs to. Alas, I suspect you're more likely to see domestic terror incidents being the cause of this instead of ones that a foreign-driven. Why? Because of the toxic nature of politics at the moment and the fact that most terrorists seem to tend to operate relatively close to home. (OTOH, most of the incidents are likely to be relatively small scale too. I believe I saw some research which argued that the scaling of these sorts of things followed a power law.)
I really hope I'm wrong. I really hope I'm reading the patterns of echoes in the runes wrong and being far too pessimistic.
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@Deadfast No-one's getting a new atlas until their one with Czechoslovakia in falls to pieces.
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@Deadfast Československo stronk!
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden I think tbh you should try reading everything again and then having a think. Because the last part you are clearly not doing.
I find it fascinating that you obviously haven't even understood my first question. And yet you deign to tell me that I "haven't read everything".
I have. And I have found your "answers" wanting. You seem to have some misconceptions about how Schengen works.
Hint: Tunisia is not part of that. Also, he was a French citizen.
That's two reasons why the BBC's mentioning Schengen was moronic at best. Oh well, what am I to expect of an Island Ape.
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Hint: Tunisia is not part of that. Also, he was a French citizen.
Bastille Day terrorist was radicalised within months and sent £84,000 to his Tunisian family days before attack
The terrorist behind the Bastille Day atrocity was radicalised within months and sent his Tunisian family £84,000 just days before the massacre, it was claimed on Saturday.
First result on google.
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@lucas1 sigh
And where exactly does Schengen play a role in this?
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@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
Alas, I suspect you're more likely to see domestic terror incidents being the cause of this instead of ones that a foreign-driven. Why? Because of the toxic nature of politics at the moment and the fact that most terrorists seem to tend to operate relatively close to home.
I don't think that "toxic politics" will have all that much to do with it. More likely will be a difference between al Qaeda and ISIS. The former wanted big spectacular stuff. The latter have said to just go out and do whatever you can wherever you can. And we're big enough with a big enough Muslim population to produce a slow stream of locally radicalized nutballs.
Which is the sort of thing I've been worried about for a long time. If you're crazy enough, you can easily do a lot of damage in so many ways that just can't be prevented in an open society, as Nice demonstrated.
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@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
I find it fascinating that you obviously haven't even understood my first question.
I find it fascinating that you're so determined and focused on misunderstanding what he said.
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@Rhywden
The article is entitled "How Britain has been kept safe for a decade". And it says in the article I quoted, that it that part of the reason why we hadn't such attacks was because we wasn't part of the free movement areas.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden
The article is entitled "How Britain has been kept safe for a decade". And it says in the article I quoted, that it that part of the reason why we hadn't such attacks was because we wasn't part of the free movement areas.And yet, in this attack Schengen played no role at all and in the earlier one only a minor part at best.
As such, it constitutes the usual EU-bashing I've come to expect of Island Apes.
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@Rhywden No it didn't, when did I say it did?
I said that border control works as a filter.
I've never traveled much in Europe (mostly Asia, Africa and the Middle East) but border checks are basically is like a filter. It is a first line of checking whether someone is who they say they are. I've had much more invasive checks when applying to Portland Down.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
@Rhywden No it didn't, when did I say it did?
Just now.
And it says in the article I quoted, that it that part of the reason why we hadn't such attacks was because we wasn't part of the free movement areas.
This says: Schengen is part of the reason.
Jesus. I'm out.
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@Rhywden
You are a moron that doesn't understand nuance. Everything must be a dichotomy in your eyes.
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@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
And yet, in this attack Schengen played no role at all and in the earlier one only a minor part at best.
As such, it constitutes the usual EU-bashing I've come to expect of Island Apes.I like how you mix the stupid with the racism. It's a nice touch.
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@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
You are a moron that doesn't understand nuance.
Apparently he thinks the Nice attack happened over the course of a decade.
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@boomzilla I have no idea how someone can ignore facts and then confuse that with something else I said in the same thread about a related but different topic. Then conflate what I said to mean something else.
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@lucas1 Welcome to talking to @Rhywden! About once a month or so he does this somewhere around here.
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@boomzilla Well it was quite obvious that what he said didn't stand up to any scrutiny,
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@lucas1 He looked at one particular thing and then applied it in a very specific way that obviously didn't work and then tried to shame you into submission with his straw man. His last resort is usually some sort of nationalistic insult before announcing his departure.
This was a classic example.
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@tufty said in Turkish Coup:
Or maybe by its refusal to consider introducing even the slightest measures of gun control?
Liberal mentality likes to think in terms of, choosing to do this has a mathematical advantage over protecting rights, and then pretending it's not a trolley problem by denying that anything bad happens due to their choice.
I could use gun control argument to argue for illegalizing personal ownership of vehicles and instituting a public transportation only policy.
@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
I've never traveled much in Europe (mostly Asia, Africa and the Middle East) but border checks are basically is like a filter. It is a first line of checking whether someone is who they say they are. I've had much more invasive checks when applying to Portland Down.
Oh no, there's a warzone there, so we need to accept everyone from that area who doesn't have a passport.
Wait, aren't the bad guys in that warzone.
Oh, they'd never actually come here pretending to be a refugee, it would never happen. (except when it does)
But a group of gunowners in a theater would flail around killing everyone if they tried to protect themselves from a shooter. (we're pretty sure... even though it didn't happen... )
???
Apparently the hypothetical flag switches on and off due to convenience of argument.
@lucas1 said in Turkish Coup:
I used to joke (it seems really fucking dumb now) that they check if you are gay because part of the HR process was putting me in front of a young woman who had ridiculous cleavage.
Jokes usually are really fucking dumb. That's what makes them jokes.
@dkf said in Turkish Coup:
for the greater good of all citizens.
Patriot act.
We tend to spend more time antagonizing our own citizens, because we don't want to profile.
@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
That's two reasons why the BBC's mentioning Schengen was moronic at best. Oh well, what am I to expect of an Island Ape.
It may not have played a role in this specific case, but having read more than just the highlights, attempted attacks occur quite regularly in the US following 9/11. So, there's reason to believe that having independent border checks could have added to security over an extended period of time, just not during this one circumstance.
@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
If you're crazy enough, you can easily do a lot of damage in so many ways that just can't be prevented in an open society, as Nice demonstrated.
I'm not going to argue that this situation isn't challenging.
I've never actually offered a solution, because there really isn't one that I can see.
The question is, just how much risk are you willing to accept to keep open borders and open society. And let's not compare it to vehicle deaths, these attacks are preventable additional deaths that only occur because these nations are playing PR and hoping that keeps more Muslims from radicalizing.
It's funny that Germany started closing it's borders right about the time that vigilante groups started forming.
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@Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:
This says: Schengen is part of the reason.
Jesus. I'm out.Is it at all possible that "such attacks" describes a broader set of circumstances than this ONE scenario??
Let's see... "such attacks"... wow... that's a plural term. Basic 101 English grammar here, but I think they're including more than one attack.
Oh, yes, the article says such a thing. It says it's talking about the full breadth of the attacks that have occurred in Europe.
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@boomzilla That ain't happening, I am a proper cunt.
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@boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:
His last resort is usually some sort of nationalistic insult before announcing his departure.
Racist too.
How would he label British expats living in Africa?
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I noticed that that term tends to apply to people east of the pond that don't accept every bullshit argument that comes their way.
