Why tipping is a scam
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@FrostCat said in Why tipping is a scam:
@Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:
Apparently you will
I wouldn't call what I did there arguing.
agreeing with vigor = arguing... apparently... hmm.... someone subscribes to the @end school of logic.....
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@FrostCat said in Why tipping is a scam:
If you don't like that, then don't eat at places that tip. Go to Burger King instead of Olive Garden. It's that simple.
Filed under: Dinnertimin
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@Vaire said in Why tipping is a scam:
Bottom line is, the major issue with tipping in the USA is the bullshit federal laws that allow paying someone below federal minimum wage, and the bullshit states and businesses that take advantage of it, and the bullshit IRS and their tax policies.
The craziest thing about tipping and below min wage in America.
If no one tipped, the server would still make minimum wage. The company is required to pay the difference.
It's kind of funny because I read an article from a waitress in a $15 min wage area, and the waitress complained that no one was tipping after the min wage increase, and that she makes less now.
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@Bort said in Why tipping is a scam:
The bill at an upscale restaurant could be 4+ times or more than the bill at a cheap place. So you'd give 4+ times the tip. Did the server at the upscale restaurant do 4x the job? Do 4x the effort?
The person working at the upscale has to dress and act appropriately, and they had the business sense to pick a place that will pay them a livable wage rather than choosing to work at a pizza buffet.
I'd tip them just for that alone.
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
If no one tipped, the server would still make minimum wage. The company is required to pay the difference.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL yeah.
The company is supposed to pay the difference. Doesn't mean it happens all the time. Or even most of the time...
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- It's absolutely illegal.
- It shows up on tax returns. (Both tips and the amount the business paid to make up the difference).
- It's per hour, not per duration of employment (So, the business can't say, "You made good tips yesterday, take it from that").
If what you implied was true, then the majority of businesses wouldn't pay minimum wage.
Not only that, I worked as a server at a restaurant that had a class action lawsuit brought against it because they had the servers roll silverware during their shift. This didn't mean they made less than minimum wage, even. It meant that they lost time where they could make more than minimum wage.
You'd need quite a bit of evidence to say that most businesses aren't guarantying their servers minimum wage.
Now if you're talking about illegal workers... well they don't get protection, do they?
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@xaade It's been discussed upthread, but here's an example...
Twenty-Three Years and Still Waiting for Change: Why It’s Time to Give Tipped Workers the Regular Minimum Wage
Discussion and action surrounding the minimum wage ignores or excludes tipped workers and the subminimum wage they receive. Yet this is a growing occupational sector, and effective policy could transform the low-wage, high-poverty jobs in the sector into better quality jobs.
There are more out there.
The thread title is correct - tipping is a scam - but it's not just a scam for the tipper. It's a scam for the tippee. The whole system honestly should be eliminated, and those employees should get paid a normal, minimum wage, just like everyone else.But I'm sure you'll find a way to prove me wrong...
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
It's kind of funny because I read an article from a waitress in a $15 min wage area, and the waitress complained that no one was tipping after the min wage increase, and that she makes less now.
Don't forget that all of her income is reported to the IRS and taxed now, too.
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@sloosecannon said in Why tipping is a scam:
The whole system honestly should be eliminated, and those employees should get paid a normal, minimum wage, just like everyone else.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
The vast amount of that article states the same thing I did.
The only part where there is doubt in these waitresses collecting the difference is:
Indeed, the restaurant industry is fraught with violations. In the most recent (2010–2012) compliance sweep of nearly 9,000 full-service restaurants by the U.S. Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division (WHD), 83.8 percent of investigated restaurants had some type of violation. In total, WHD recovered $56.8 million in back wages for nearly 82,000 workers and assessed $2.5 million in civil money penalties. Violations included 1,170 tip credit infractions that resulted in nearly $5.5 million in back wages.
But, I'd need to know where this sweep happened, what was targeted, etc.
Every restaurant I worked at would pay the difference.
So, it's not conclusion that the problem is systemic.
But none of that is relevant.
All I said earlier was that restaurants are required to pay the difference.
That I took part in a lawsuit where the restaurant was sued for asking servers to roll silverware (they should have made us clock out, then clock back in as staff).So, it suits are that sensitive, the law is protecting the servers.
But, they'd have better protection if they were paid full minimum wage.
However, if they did, I would only ever tip out of gratitude and not necessity.
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
Every restaurant I worked at would pay the difference.
Every restaurant I have ever worked at served fried minotaur.
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Where?
I've had bison and it was great.
They could have selected restaurants for review that they received complaints from. This would obviously skew the results. It makes more sense for a review panel to do this anyway. The review panel isn't interested in conducting a survey to accurately assess what percent of restaurants fail to comply. The review panel is interested in catching and punishing restaurants that do not comply.
We can't take those results to mean it is an accurate survey that represents the percentage of restaurants failing to comply, nationwide.
Those results simply indicate that the panel is precise at catching lawbreakers.
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Tipping in my home country is illegal. Don't ask why, or you will be confined for "national security". Oh and we do not have minimum wage either.
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@Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:
So, calling in an extra person is seen as taking money out of the pockets of those currently working. This is why half the restaurants you go to don't have enough servers on the floor.
Never tyhought about it from that angle. That sounds like a good scheme to have if your goal is to have the least amount of servers with them themselves interested to keep it this way.
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
compliance sweep of nearly 9,000 full-service restaurants by the U.S. Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division (WHD), 83.8 percent of investigated restaurants
So by sheer math, there's at least 7400 restaurants that violated the laws.
@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
Every restaurant I worked at would pay the difference.
So at least, what, 3-4 restaurants are in compliance. Clearly that's statistically relevant.
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Again, I'm saying that while I don't doubt it, I would want to see which restaurants are being targeted, in which areas, for what reasons. A crackdown from the government on restaurants is not a statistical poll. It's not a random sampling. It could be a random sampling, but it doesn't have to be. It would merely be by chance if it were.
When you hear that the swat team found drug operations in 99% of the homes that it checked, it doesn't mean that 200 million American homes are hosting drug operations.
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@xaade Sure, but if they said they found drugs in 99% of the 202,020,200 homes they searched, then yes, I would conclude that there's 200 million homes with drugs in them. That's how numbers work.
Some quick googling tells me we now know, for absolute certain, that at least 1% of the restaurants in the US are out of compliance. That's not the majority, but it's a lot more significant than the .0008% you personally sampled, or the .2% that the study sampled that were in compliance. It's more statistically likely that the system is corrupt than that it is not, without further evidence. Deciding arbitrarily to pitch out the study means you're back to making unfounded assertions with no data.
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@Yamikuronue That's my point. They didn't search every restaurant, so why does 7400 found mean that there's a systemic problem, and that the law is failing?
If every restaurant is getting away with not paying the difference, when it all shows on tax returns, why isn't there a systemic problem with businesses paying minimum wage to everyone.
@Yamikuronue said in Why tipping is a scam:
It's more statistically likely that the system is corrupt than that it is not, without further evidence. Deciding arbitrarily to pitch out the study means you're back to making unfounded assertions with no data.
1% isn't proof of systemic corruption of waitress pay over any other form of pay.
And besides, it gives me no reason why waitress pay is more susceptible. Like I said, everything shows on your tax return, what they paid you and what tips you claimed. If a business can lie about those things, then any business can lie about anyone's pay.
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
1% isn't proof of systemic corruption of waitress pay over any other form of pay.
It's a hell of a lot more indicative than .001%, which is clearly enough proof to meet your standards.
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I never said mine was proof.
@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
@sloosecannon said in Why tipping is a scam:
The whole system honestly should be eliminated, and those employees should get paid a normal, minimum wage, just like everyone else.I'm not disagreeing with you.
@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
You'd need quite a bit of evidence
@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
So, it's not conclusive that the problem is systemic.
@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
Again, I'm saying that while I don't doubt it, I would want to see which restaurants are being targeted, in which areas, for what reasons.
The argument is.
"It's systemic, it's everywhere, the vast majority of restaurants are stiffing their employees."
That's pretty damn near saying "all restaurants", at which point you only need 1 example to show otherwise.
At which point.
- I haven't experienced it or known anyone to have ever experienced it.
- The "proof" does not qualify as a statistical survey.
If EVERY single restaurant checked was due to a filed complaint, then it's no where near reliable.
It would be as reliable as all the negative reviews on the internet.It also follows that, since everything is reported to the IRS, we should expect other forms of minimum wage violations not related to tipped jobs to occur in high levels.
Meaning that the suggested recourse.
"Shifting all employees to the same minimum wage"
Will not necessarily even help.
I'm all for prosecuting violators of the law, so please don't shove words in my mouth.
But to say that it's systemic based on a non-scientific non-study targeted investigation, and to suggest that its somehow a problem and that the recourse is to switch to a form of minimum wage that has not be proven and doesn't even pass reasonable doubt that it would solve the problem at all.
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@Polygeekery said in Why tipping is a scam:
But I will also tell the server why, which pisses my wife off.
I am curious as to how the servers respond. Around here , when service is extremely bad and when we let the server know very politely , we usually get a "Go fuck yourself". There was not even one single instance where they've responded appropriately.
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@stillwater said in Why tipping is a scam:
I am curious as to how the servers respond.
They have usually been dumbstruck and not said anything.
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@Polygeekery Do they serve you better next time ? Does feedback actually work ?
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@stillwater said in Why tipping is a scam:
Do they serve you better next time ?
I don't go back.
I make really good food when I cook, and I enjoy cooking. I go out to eat in order to get good service. If they fuck that part up, I will stay at home and cook, or go somewhere else.
The places I do frequent, I do get great service, because I am known for being friendly and courteous and appreciative...and for tipping really fucking well. I am usually known on a first name basis because I prefer to know the employee's names. It makes it seem less subservient and more respectful. When most people treat them like disposable human beings, they remember that and they appreciate it.
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@Polygeekery I would have thought that the servers would usually respond to ping.
Or should I read this thread to work out what everyone is talking about?
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
When you hear that the swat team found drug operations in 99% of the homes that it checked, it doesn't mean that 200 million American homes are hosting drug operations.
I hear in some places it's illegal not to have a DHMO hook-up, so I don't know man, could be. Could be.
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@Polygeekery Pretty much the same here.
Had a good stretch with a breakfast joint while there was a waitress there that was really nice to my family.
Pro-tip: Get the kids to like you.
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
Pro-tip: Get the kids to like you.
Super Pro-Tip: Just treat servers like people and you will stand out from all other customers.
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@Polygeekery said in Why tipping is a scam:
When most people treat them like disposable human beings, they remember that and they appreciate it.
You can tell a lot about a person by observing how he treats people like waitstaff.
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@Polygeekery said in Why tipping is a scam:
Super Pro-Tip: Just treat servers like people and you will stand out from all other customers.
Interesting conundrum created by tipping: Either be a douchebag and not tip, but personally benefit; or conform to societal norms and be an actual human, but voluntarily give some of your money away.
It's great that we created a system that rewards people for being assholes.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Why tipping is a scam:
@cvi said in Why tipping is a scam:
But then you have the fucking pizza drivers. What if my order is something like 28 PLN - do I tip 2 to 30 like a jackass, or 12 to 40 for almost 50% tip? What if you pay by credit card - do you just hand the guy coins in addition to that? What if you're broke and can only afford the pizza?
Yeah, I don't get that, too. I never tip drivers. I know people that do, people who tip drivers from places that filing charge extra for delivery. I don't ducking get it. They just drive around and deliver food. Once. They're not bringing me stuff around and around. So why would I?
The biggest problem I have Roth tipping is: it has to be done with cash. I tend not to carry cash around -- why would I? It weighs and rattles. Fuck that. So when I'm in a restaurant -- how do I fucking tip?
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I shouldn't have to pay someone else's health bills, let the fucker die if he can't pay!
Don't be a fucking asshole, pay the servers yourself, god forbid we make the businesses pay proper salaries to their employees and make tips a bonus rather than a necessity!
God bless America, it's a never-ending source of entertainment.
Filed under: Let the flames begin!
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I only tip a delivery driver if their car is crappier than mine. Which is seldom.
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@kt_ said in Why tipping is a scam:
I never tip drivers.
If that's not how it works in your country, that's fine. Come to the US and order delivery, though, you should tip.
@kt_ said in Why tipping is a scam:
So when I'm in a restaurant -- how do I fucking tip?
Restaurant credit card receipts always include a tip line, even if you wouldn't normally tip, so if you're paying via credit card, you've already got a method.
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I just saw a tip jar inside Little Caesers. They don't have delivery and there's no dine-in option. Tips for pickup.
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@brianw13a As far as I can tell, tipping when carrying out is entirely optional. That's one place I don't bother, because I don't see how going in to get the food I ordered is doing anything extra, any more than I would tip at McDonald's. Making food and having it ready for me to pick up is their basic job.
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@FrostCat No I don't tip there either. It's just surprising how many places have tip jars now. That was one place that really surprised me.
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@FrostCat said in Why tipping is a scam:
tipping when carrying out is entirely optional.
There's (currently) only one place I tip on carry out. My favorite Thai place. Because they're nice people and I stop in regularly.
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@FrostCat said in Why tipping is a scam:
@kt_ said in Why tipping is a scam:
I never tip drivers.
If that's not how it works in your country, that's fine. Come to the US and order delivery, though, you should tip.
@kt_ said in Why tipping is a scam:
So when I'm in a restaurant -- how do I fucking tip?
Restaurant credit card receipts always include a tip line, even if you wouldn't normally tip, so if you're paying via credit card, you've already got a method.
Come to my country and do that. I dare you! I double dare you!
Hint: I've never seen such a system implemented in Poland. And AFAIK waiters aren't exempt from minimal wage laws.
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@brianw13a I suspect it's because they think people might chuck small change in. Same as the shops which have the charity boxes near the tills. Some people will chuck it in there to save carrying around more, mostly useless, small change.
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@brianw13a said in Why tipping is a scam:
It's just surprising how many places have tip jars now.
Yeah, that seems slightly unethical to me, like they're taking advantage of people. "Oh, has tipping become a thing here now?"
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@dcon said in Why tipping is a scam:
There's (currently) only one place I tip on carry out. My favorite Thai place. Because they're nice people and I stop in regularly.
I would never tell people not to tip if they didn't want to. I just don't like the seeming creeping spread of the phenomenon.
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@FrostCat and why are you talking about the US? I never said anything about the US.
So: IF YOU WANT TO TIP IN YOUR COUNTRY THEN DO, BUT IF YOU CONE TO POLAND YOU PROBABLY SHOULD, AT LEADT WAITERS BECAUSE IT'S CUSTOMARY BUT I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE TO TIP DRIVERS BECAUSE FEW PEOPLE DO!
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@ben_lubar said in Why tipping is a scam:
@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
Every restaurant I worked at would pay the difference.
Every restaurant I have ever worked at served fried minotaur.
"Is eating minotaur cannibalism?"
Yes and no.
"Give me an answer. That's just a load of bull"
Partially.
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@kt_ said in Why tipping is a scam:
Come to my country and do that. I dare you! I double dare you!
Hint: I've never seen such a system implemented in Poland. And AFAIK waiters aren't exempt from minimal wage laws.
Is tipping normally expected? If not, then just don't tip, I think I already said that.
If you're going to a place where tipping is the norm, though, it's incumbent on you to be prepared, meaning bring some cash if there's no line on the receipt.
If a place switched from non-tipping to tipping, then I'd say you get a free pass, once, if you tell the waiter "sorry, it's been a while since I was here and there wasn't tipping then." After that, you tip if you're going to go back, or if they're trying to scam you, then you just don't go back.
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@kt_ said in Why tipping is a scam:
IF YOU CONE TO POLAND YOU PROBABLY SHOULD
If I ever cone to Poland I will now know at least some situations where I should and shouldn't tip.
But like I said a while ago: if it's customary to tip, then you should cone prepared to tip. If that means "get cash first" then so be it.
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Misc. rant:
Tipping is supposed to be a bonus above normal wage.
Tipping was not invented to ensure wait staff could make up the difference between shitty wage and living wage. Their shitty wages were invented because management said "oh, they're making a bonus, that means I can pay them less and their bonus now becomes their regular wage!"
If wait staff's wages are raised, this isn't an invitation to tip them less. Your roles, as a customer, is to give them an OPTIONAL, cultural-based bonus for doing a good job. Not make up for their lack of wages.
FFS, this would be if you, as a programmer, did a really good job on a customer's website. So that customer sent you some free product, let's say the retail value is $100. So your boss says "great, that means I can deduct $100 from your paycheck because customers are giving you free stuff".
And then lobbies the government to be allowed to pay you $2000 a year less, because you potentially have 20 customers who could give you a $100-valued bonus.
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@Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:
It's great that we created a system that rewards people for being assholes.
If you think money is the only reward... maybe.
@kt_ said in Why tipping is a scam:
Yeah, I don't get that, too. I never tip drivers.
The big pizza online deliveries like Pizza Hut and Papa John's, put a note on their site to remind you to tip the drivers.
@Onyx said in Why tipping is a scam:
I shouldn't have to pay someone else's health bills, let the fucker die if he can't pay!
I already pay someone's else's health bills, I have insurance. I pay other's health bills every month. Oh, you mean pay someone's else's health insurance.
@brianw13a said in Why tipping is a scam:
tip jar
Probably empty too. There's no social norm for tip jars. I ignore them. Some people want me to tip them for standing on the side of the road and holding a sign asking me to tip them.
@FrostCat said in Why tipping is a scam:
Is tipping normally expected? If not, then just don't tip, I think I already said that.
I went on a cruise, I expected to tip people on the boat and the people that took my luggage.
The ship ran a bus to get you to the other side of the road (heavy traffic road).
The guy was pissed because people weren't tipping him, when there was no sign to tip, no expectation to tip. He tried to hand me money saying "I should tip you for riding with me."
On the way back, we walked across the road. Fuck him.
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@xaade said in Why tipping is a scam:
@Jaime said in Why tipping is a scam:
It's great that we created a system that rewards people for being assholes.
If you think money is the only reward... maybe.
As long as money is considered a reward, my logic is solid. Assholish behavior leaves one in a measurably better position than normal behavior.
