I am a Developer from India.One among the bunch of guys you hate for writing unmaintainable shit-ass code that you have to fix. Ask me anything .
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The Mythical Man-Month is not webscale.
TIL that men are mythical.
or at least the concept of Men producing Work is mythical.
something of that kidney anyway.
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Can we not provision new men to fulfill man-months dynamically? In a cloud based solution?
I think we should switch to Sidequik to assign tasks, and then stick all developers into a Redis queue.
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You jest but I heard that a few months ago. We don't even do webscale here.
I need to write "the mythical CPU month". Because I'm getting increasingly stupid demands about scale out.
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We should ensure our developers are Asterisk connected and manage our issues with Confluence using Agile.
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How old is The Mythical Man-Month now? (40 years!)
How much older would it be if it had more authors?
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management having a strong belief in "The more developers you put in, the more work gets done in a shorter amount of time"
You need this posted on your cube wall:
THE BEARING OF A CHILD REQUIRES NINE MONTHS REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF WOMEN ASSIGNED TO THE PROJECT
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I don't think they have cubes
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TIL that men are mythical.
"And in other news, today marks the beginning of the Mythical Man Month. Celebrations of heroic deeds of Mythical Man will be observed throughout the country for the whole of December."
Filed under: inb4 Christmas flamewar
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Those people actually have more room. And plenty of natural light. But a little less privacy. And it's probably noisy because they don't get beaten as much.
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I can vouch for this. Saw it happen even here in the US. A handful of Indian developers for a software partner started talking amongst themselves in their native language before switching gears back to English to talk with us
I cringe at this so hard.There are like 20 regional languages in India.The language local to the region is the one that gets used in a meeting.people from other regions have no clue and have to ask afterwards what actually went on in the meeting. It is fucked up. Sorry for when you had to go through this.
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Sorry for when you had to go through this.
It didn't bother me. So much confusion was going on between them in english that it was actually more productive for them to hash it out between themselves first.
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Was this TV show funny or just sad?
I die a little everytime I see this.The actual indian mentality is portrayed far better in Mind your language.The indian in that show represents every single one of us. Doesn't matter that show was made a couple decades back
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You need this posted on your cube wall:THE BEARING OF A CHILDREQUIRES NINE MONTHSREGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OFWOMEN ASSIGNED TO THE PROJECT
No one has heard of the mythical man month. You're an outcast if you mention shit like this.No one has heard of hacker news slash dot,Donald knuth,blah blah.
No one knows what documentation is.
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Of course they do. And they're as small and degrading as possible.
We exactly have this.No phone for each person though.
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Plot twist: He's working for Oracle, but too ashamed to admit it
What's with the oracle hate? I really wanna know
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How old is The Mythical Man-Month now? (40 years!)
Yes, but it's in its third edition and 45th printing, so that's really only ten and a half book-months.
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Is there some particular reason why it's difficult to get spaces in the correct place around punctuation in written English? I mean, learning a second language is hard; I've tried, and I get that. The placement of spaces around punctuation seems to be something that is a really common mistake though, and it kind of just makes me go because there are a handful of really simple patterns and they're almost 100% without exceptions.
E.g. a space always precedes and never follows any combination of one or more of the following:
[{(“
, and always follows and never precedes any combination of one or more of the following:.,:;!?)}]”
.Unlike, say, the rules for English spelling or pronunciation, which are a giant ball of .
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What's with the oracle hate?
Actually, I have no idea what started that particular meme either, the I-Hate-Oracle Club was founded before I joined.
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@asdf said:
Plot twist: He's working for Oracle, but too ashamed to admit it
What's with the oracle hate? I really wanna know
- Oracle SQL
- Java
- Are there other Oracle technologies? Blessedly, I have not yet had the need to encounter any more of them.
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Oracle SQL
Java
Are there other Oracle technologies? Blessedly, I have not yet had the need to encounter any more of them.Oracle Linux
MySQL
Solaris
ZFS
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Java
Outdated, but OK language. The biggest problems with Java are in the ecosystem around it.
Of course, the installer and the browser plugin are a huge pile of crap as well.
MySQL
Huge pile of s, but neither invented there nor really marketed by them.
Solaris
What's wrong with Solaris?
Not saying there are not enough Oracle s, but MySQL and Solaris are bad examples IMO.
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Huge pile of s, but neither invented there nor really marketed by them.
Java wasn't invented by them either, it's another Sun project that Oracle acquired.
What's wrong with Solaris?
I'm just not a Unix fan (note, Unix, not *nix)
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Java wasn't invented by them either, it's another Sun project that Oracle acquired.
Yeah, but in that case Oracle is responsible for not killing the browser plugin and for continuing to ship a crappy installer packed with adware, so you can reasonably blame them. ;)
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Yeah, but in that case Oracle is responsible for not killing the browser plugin and for continuing to ship a crappy installer packed with adware, so you can reasonably blame them.
Then I could reasonably blame them for not helping improve MySQL as well, such as the things MariaDB are doing for it (I do blame them, fwiw)
But we could have this cyclical argument all day
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Outdated, but OK language.
Of course. Oracle didn't create it, they inherited it from Sun.
The biggest problems with Java are in the ecosystem around it.
While I've heard rumors that it's possible, at least theoretically, to write non-trivial Java applications which are small, quick, and integrate with the OS look and feel, I can't recall ever seeing one.
the installer and the browser plugin are a huge pile of crap as well.
The blame for that can go fully on Oracle.
What's wrong with Solaris?
Also inherited from Sun.
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Then I could reasonably blame them for not helping improve MySQL as well
Well, at least in that case they have a valid reason not to. If anything, it's quite nice of them that they didn't try to kill MySQL entirely, but instead continued development.
In the Java case, though, they're actively making deals with adware companies and unnecessarily infect their customers with adware. I think that's a huge difference.
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small, quick
That part is actually quite easy. If a Java program is slow, it's not the JVM's or language's fault 99% of the time. Usually, it's either crappy design or crappy coding or both. A lot of Java programmers are incompetent code monkeys I wouldn't let anywhere near a C++ codebase.
integrate with the OS look and feel
That's a lot harder, though.
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Of course. Oracle didn't create it, they inherited it from Sun.
Oracle doesn't create. They acquire. And the I-Hate-Oracle-Club predates the sun acquisition.
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If you have to question the I-Hate-Oracle-Club, then you've never used Oracle.
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Careful, man. This shit is volatile enough to entice a flamewar amongst atheists alone, let alone getting religious people in the mix.
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If you are in a mixed team with on-shore developers, how do you experience interacting with them?
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If you have to question the I-Hate-Oracle-Club, then you've never used Oracle.
I like using the DB, but I'm not a DBA. There are things about it that drive me crazy, too. But I probably have Oracle Syndrome, because empty string is null doesn't overly bother me at this point in my life.
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If you are in a mixed team with on-shore developers, how do you experience interacting with them?
Most of the Information between us and them gets lost because of the language problem. On-shore developers hate us by default and do all the important work and we do stuff that is not. We fuck up that too and this pisses them off even more. Rinse and Repeat.
The On-shore team likes to keep interaction with us to a minimum and vice versa because it is peaceful for both the parties.
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What change if made in the way we interact and work, would make your lives easier when you have to work with us ?
I can pass any valid suggestions to people here who want to do well but don't know better.
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Don't write shit code. Understand what the feature does in a business sense and use that to sanity check that what you're building makes sense.
Read the fucking spec. Don't take my word for it, I may have written it but I didn't memorize the specifics of every damned thing before the kickoff meeting.
When we don't respond to acceptance testing it's because we haven't done it yet because we're busy (keep in mind that you're doing the thing in the first place because we're too busy). Chill out and go write shit code for someone else until we're ready.
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I am sensing a lot of hostility between the lines.
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"Do the needful" is my favorite Indianism. I have adopted it into my speech as a shortcut for "do something wrong and stupid because the company demands it".
Similarly, I've picked up "nichevo" from Russian colleagues.
Do you have any other turns off phrase that a cynical bastard like myself could adopt?
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I have a lot of hostility for everyone that works for my company regardless of nationality.
In fact, the very same list of complaints applies to every damned programmer in the company.
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What change if made in the way we interact and work, would make your lives easier when you have to work with us ?
Think more about what you're doing. Don't just go for a short term solution, but think of the longer term implications.
I once was part of a mixed team at a customer. Me and a colleague worked from NL (company A), while other team members worked from Hyderabad for company B. Together, we were working on a migration to a newer version of SharePoint for a heavily customised site. Under some conditions, one of the custom-built pages failed with an error message which said "invalid CSRF token". The customer found out before we did, so they logged an issue in TFS and it got assigned to one of the Hyderabad guys.
He "resolved" the issue by disabling request validation altogether (it's a setting on
SPWebApplication
) but he did not tell anyone, nor document it. The customer re-tested it and closed the defect, as the page was now working properly again. The guy was considered to be "the SharePoint expert" by both company B as well as the customer...
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Your and @Weng's advice would translate in train or attract and retain beter developers
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beter developers
Cost more money, usually. Hence, outsourcing. Which doesn't mean you can't have good outsourced devs, but most companies that take outsourcing contracts attract customers by... being cheap. Which means hiring developers who can be paid less...
Filed under:
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You could use the economic difference between India-US without taking the cheapest devs there is available there.
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Oh, definitely. But, if you're, for example, an Indian company, you still want to be competitive. And people who choose who to outsource to are bean counters, not devs. So it's the bean counters that you have to convince that quality is more important than the price, really. Trying to "fix" stuff in India or wherever is pushing on the wrong front, IMHO.
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Do the needfu
We wish to put our malware encrusted machines on your network, as we do not understand how to use the VMs provided. Also, we are still requiring of the documentation attached to the email I am replying to. Please do needful for the same.
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Your and @Weng's advice would translate in train or attract and retain beter developers
I don't think they should only hire "rockstar" or "ninja" developers, but having someone with a mindset that goes beyond "problem -> fix it" would be nice. Otherwise, we'll never get rid of "solutions" that look like this...
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That's because it's not the Indian companies that are going to fix this, it's the clients that contract from them, that have to be more demanding on it.