The Electrical Standards Wars - Don't Get Shocked
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"Novelty" means "new," which is exactly the opposite of the issue at hand.
Not always:
**novelty** *noun* the quality of being new, original, or unusual.
See? It can mean new or original or unusual. Given this, my original usage is correct and your "fix" is rejected.
Filed Under: English: Do you speak it? ;)
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I work in the electrical industry. You don't.It's my fucking job to deal with these things.
Oh shit, you guys did it now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09xgjVWZJ_Q
You are such an electrician!
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You sir are either an idiot or unable to read.
If you read my posts, you'll notice that I have repeatedly mentioned that the US has different standards depending on where you are.It's a completely insane mess.
PS: A fire on a cooker isn't an electrical fire. It's a fire on a cooker.
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@lightsoff said:
I know. The US has many standard sockets for "mains" voltages.
If by "many" you mean 5, then sure
So, more than "one" 'standard'?
@abarker said:(there are a couple more, but these are the most common).
That's definitely looking like more than "one"...
So, one might almost say.... 'many'?
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You know what's great about the UK? Any device plugs into any socket. Unless it's a shaver
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You know what's great about the UK? Any device plugs into any socket. Unless it's a shaver
Or an iPhone.
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Some people choose option 3.
No, I can imagine why it would happen. I just haven't witnessed it. Like file names with newlines.
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US electrical codes also vary quite a lot - even by district in some cases.
So...what you're saying is that the US isn't a melting pot of electrical codes?
Finally, your estimate gives an electrical fire death risk roughly five times higher in the USA, even after skewing the numbers to bring them closer (as one should when making buttumptions)
It's also a minuscule number, so hyperventilating about multipliers is pretty silly.
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You sir are either an idiot or unable to read.
So we're throwing around insults now? In that case, allow me suggest that you are apparently an illiterate, and a piss-poor communicator.
As evidence for the first point, let's start by looking at the above sentence which is missing two commas, three if you subscribe to the use of the Oxford comma:
You, sir, are either an idiot or unable to read.
or
You, sir, are either an idiot, or unable to read.
Secondary evidence can be taken from the fact that you indirectly attacked my claims without bothering to even look at the report that the claims are based on:
PS: A fire on a cooker isn't an electrical fire. It's a fire on a cooker.
If you had actually looked at the report, you would realize that the 17 deaths I had added after a second reading had nothing to do with a "fire on a cooker", but rather fires caused by "Other electrical appliances". In fact, the report lists deaths in fires caused by "Cooking appliances" separately.
The only reasons that I can come up with for you not actually reviewing the report before attacking the claims that are based on the report are that you are either only partially literate, or you are lazy. I hope you can see where this is going.
As for my second claim about you (that you are a piss-poor communicator), let's take a look at one of your statements from the post I am replying to:
If you read my posts, you'll notice that I have repeatedly mentioned that the US has different standards depending on where you are.
You've said it once, and hinted at it another time. Even when you said it outright, you followed it up with this:
There's a minimum national standard
Which is wrong. The only "national standard" for electrical work is the NEC, which may or may not be used as the basis of local codes in each state and municipality. Even when it is used as the basis, it isn't necessarily adopted in whole. Parts may be removed or replaced. So, there isn't a minimum national standard in the US. There's a suggested minimum standard, but nothing enforceable.
And even without that doozy, you've also said this:
Note that as of 2014 the US now requires [arc fault detection devices] throughout homes
Which directly contradicts any claim you make about knowing that there are no national requirements in the US. Given your conflicting statements, I can't tell if you really know that the United States doesn't actually have an enforceable national electrical code of any sort, so I decided to err on the side of pedantry and tell you that we do not. After all, I like to try to correct ignorance and idiocy wherever I can.
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You know what's great about the UK? Any device plugs into any socket. Unless it's a shaver
Yeah, I can see why you're worried about the 2 or 3 weird outlets in a typical US home. I mean, you really might want to unplug your dryer or oven and plug in a lamp there.
Honestly, 99% of outlets in a typical US or Canadian house are NEMA 5-15. You won't have a problem plugging things in.
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You know what's great about the UK? Any device plugs into any socket.
So you can plug in your electric cooker next to your clock in the bedroom? This seems neither useful nor desirable. Why wire a circuit that will only be used for low-current appliances to handle high-current appliances. And it has to be wired to handle them, because if a high-current appliance can be plugged in, somebody will. Plugs/sockets that don't allow mismatched voltage/current devices to be connected are sensible.
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Fine, you win. I should have known better than to attempt to discuss specialist domain knowledge in a way the layman can understand with somebody armed with Google and a really short memory.
I'd hoped somebody would find some of it interesting, and perhaps bring up other shortcomings of worldwide electrical systems they had noticed.
This is a stupid ideas thread, after all.Do you argue with your surgeon and lawyer the same way?
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My mum has a kettle and mini fridge in her bedroom, because she doesn't like getting up before her first cup of tea.
A friend once blew the fuse for his kitchen, so he moved the kettle and toaster to the living room to have breakfast.
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she doesn't like getting up before her first cup of tea.
I don't know your mum, but I like her already.
Kettles, toasters and mini-fridges are fine. These will plug in anywhere in a US house1, too. The only things with different plugs are major appliances like electric stoves, clothes driers, and the like. NEMA 5-20 exists, but I don't think I've ever seen one in a residence, nor an appliance that needed one.
1One that's wired to modern standards; only old houses that haven't been updated are a problem — and cheap $3 extension cords.
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Fine, you win. I should have known better than to attempt to discuss specialist domain knowledge in a way the layman can understand with somebody armed with Google and a really short memory.
But you weren't discussing "specialist domain knowledge", you were arguing about your perceptions and hunches regarding US electrical safety and standards. That stuff is easy enough to shoot down with Google by looking up some official government reports.
As for the "short memory", I'm not sure what you are basing that on. Any time I went referencing anything you said, I went back and double checked your posts to make sure I remembered right. Can you stop with the insults already? You aren't very good at it.
I'd hoped somebody would find some of it interesting, and perhaps bring up other shortcomings of worldwide electrical systems they had noticed.
YMBNH. Whoops, I forgot about your literacy issues. You Must Be New Here.
Do you argue with your surgeon and lawyer the same way?
No, for a few reasons:
- You are presenting perceptions (most outlets in the US allow plugs to fall out if you look at them funny) and hunches (US has more deaths in electrical fires than the UK). Perceptions and hunches don't require any sort of specialist knowledge to refute because they aren't based on any specialist knowledge. They're based on personal observation, which is generally inaccurate, and bullshit.
- I've only had 1 surgeon. There were no perceptions involved, no hunches, just facts. The facts laid out a pretty clear case: my appendix needed to come out. Not much arguing to be done there.
- I've only needed to consult a lawyer a few times. Each time I specifically sought out a lawyer who specialized in the area I needed help in, laid out the facts as I knew them, and explained what my goals were. The lawyer recommended the best course of action.
tl;dr: I don't argue with my surgeon or lawyer because I get specialist information from them. I'm arguing with you because you aren't providing specialist knowledge, you're providing bullshit.
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You know what's great about the UK? Any device plugs into any socket.
That cannot possibly be true.
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@Jaloopa said:
You know what's great about the UK? Any device plugs into any socket.
That cannot possibly be true.
From what I can find online, It appears to be true. It also seems a bad idea, given that their beloved ring circuits are supposed to be balanced[1] to prevent any wiring in the ring from exceeding its rated capacity. Plug a large appliance (maybe a clothes drier) into the wrong outlet and suddenly you've thrown a circuit out of balance, and probably overloaded some wiring. Overloaded wiring could lead to fun problems, like an electrical fire.
[1] Regulation 433-02-04 of BS 7671
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Even like... the charger for a Tesla? Runs on the same circuit as the light bulbs in the kitchen?
Those fuckers are like 480 volts.
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Even like... the charger for a Tesla? Runs on the same circuit as the light bulbs in the kitchen?
Those fuckers are like 480 volts.
According to Tesla's UK site, you can in fact plug into the standard domestic outlet to charge.
There is apparently also a "utility outlet" option.
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According to Tesla's UK site, you can in fact plug into the standard domestic outlet to charge.
For how many hours? Like 60? "Every week you can drive 200 miles."
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For how many hours? Like 60? "Every week you can drive 200 miles."
They claim you can get 6 miles of drive time for every hour of charging on a standard domestic outlet. But yeah, I wouldn't recommend a Tesla in the UK unless you get a charging station installed.
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So we're throwing around insults now? In that case, allow me suggest that you are apparently an illiterate, and a piss-poor communicator.
Oh boy! Someone wake up the keeper of the flamewar count!
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A friend once blew the fuse for his kitchen, so he moved the kettle and toaster to the living room to have breakfast.
Instead of replacing the fuse?
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Instead of replacing the fuse?
Before replacing it. Can't go out to buy a fuse without a cuppa in you
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A typical, modern, UK domestic house will have a few ring main circuits rated 30A with a maximum single device rated at 13A - This is the standard 3 (square) pin plug which can be fitted with 13A, 5A or 3A fuses (it's all you can buy unless you perform a few modifications) There are very few, if any, domestic devices that actually require 13A and they would be 3KW electric fires - the normal "max" is 2KW.
There are at least two 5A lighting circuits, possibly 3. Things like cookers and immersion heaters would have their own dedicated 15A circuits.
You would find it very difficult to find and adaptor to allow you to plug domestic devices into the light circuit.
You can, of course, do what you want to modify the circuits / fuse. As far as I am aware you will not necessarily be prosecuted etc if you do (unless somebody dies etc). BUT. I for any reason the utility providers have to switch off the circuit, they will not switch it back on until it is in compliance.
Under normal circumstances, the mains fuse do not blow, but obviously they do on occasion, and most modern fuse boards have circuit trips and earth leakage protection etc. You are more likely to "trip" the light circuit when the bulb blows. Most domestic device blow "open" (my term), i.e. the don't short. Mainly because we have a Live, Neutral and Earth (rather that 110V above and below earth). The live supply is fused, fuses should not be fitted on the neutral line. This means when the fuse blows, power is cut off from the device.
In the old days it used to be a lot simpler. We had 3 pin round plugs of different physical sizes, according to their use and expected power requirements. Unlike today where the plug is the same regardless of the device plugged in.
Well, almost the same. You can get a 3 pin plug with a different shaped earth pin to use on "clean circuits", mainly used to stop cleaning ladies plunging the Hoovers in, or tape monkeys, their kettles.
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Mainly because we have a Live, Neutral and Earth (rather that 110V above and below earth).
US 120V circuits are also hot, neutral and ground. Only if you need 240V (stoves, clothes driers, water heaters, and the like, or industrial equipment) do you have two hots (180° out of phase), a neutral and a ground. Also, yes, only the hot(s) is (are) fused.
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Yes, you do like to complicate things over there, a bit. Like driving on the wrong side of the road, and getting confused over what a fanny and a fag are (for example) (dare i mention gas?)
Still, what can you expect when you leave home early, before all the proper values have been instilled in you.
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Before replacing it.
Now wait just a minute. I grew up in a house with fuses, although I haven't lived in one for decades, and I remember that people used to keep spares.
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huh... i was wondering if that would split thread.
Now i wonder did anyone ask for it or did
@boomzilla@abarker do his job without prompting?
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Now i wonder did anyone ask for it or did
@boomzilla@abarker do his job without prompting?And I wonder: Does that really need an answer? :P
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nah. but i'll remain curious if it isn't.
;-)
Well, it's a good thing you're a fox then. We all know what curiosity does to cats.
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yes, but what does satisfaction do the poor cat.
everone remembers the bastard curiosity, no one remembers satisfaction..... :grump:
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Well, experimenting on you wouldn't help. You aren't a cat. We'd need someone like @CarrieVS.
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I'm nearly always curious and usually satisfied. I guess that makes me Schrodinger's cat?
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Sounds like they should have just created a hot tea distribution network, then you wouldn't have needed 240v outlets in the first place.
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I would be ok with this. Hot, cold and tea running water
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Pretty sure whoever installed/configured the water heaters where I live now went for that, except that they skipped the hot option.
FYI- showering in near-boiling temperature water makes you wake up more quickly in the morning than a cold shower.
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http://www.logosol.co.uk/store/media/catalog/product/cache/6/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/e/l/elkabel-400v-16a_3.jpg
In the EU we do 3 phase 400v circuits when we need moar powah. They are getting less and less common in households. They are very common on construction sites and industrial places (kitchens / woodshops /...)
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In the EU we do 3 phase 400v circuits when we need moar powah. They are getting less and less common in households.
We do 480V 3 phase for industrial; they're never1 used for households. Our household wiring is basically one side (120V/240V pair) of the delta (although I don't know if they actually feed the circuits from delta transformers; that's definitely not my line of work).
1Never say never; somebody, somewhere may have done it, but it's certainly not common.
Filed under: It sure would be nice if the Jeffing notifications linked to somewhere useful in finding the moved posts.
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We do 480V 3 phase
120° phases? Because if that's 3 x 180° and it works I've misunderstood something important.
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Filed under: It sure would be nice if the Jeffing notifications linked to somewhere useful in finding the moved posts.
WONTFIX-JDGI
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Also its fucking annoying to find my place in the thread again when I've read 93% of the posts before the jeffing
custom emotes are still not being auto completed, and it instead selects the first selected. That was supposed to be wtf..
Rage..
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Yes, 120° phases, exactly the Wye transformer shown in your post, just the 480V version.
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@HardwareGeek said:
We do 480V 3 phase
120° phases? Because if that's 3 x 180° and it works I've misunderstood something important.
NEMA 14-x outlets are typically split phase, but are sometimes set up as 3-phase 208V. NEMA L16 twist connectors are specifically intended for 3-phase 480 V, and the NEMA L17 twist connectors are used for 3-phase 600 V.
But yes, 120° phases. Just as @HardwareGeek said.
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I got separate notifications for the quote and the @mention. I thought I was only supposed to get one or the other.
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FYI- showering in near-boiling temperature water makes you wake up more quickly in the morning than a cold shower.
My current house has this problem. The heating is oil-fired which is fairly unusual in the UK and the boiler looks like it should be in a museum. Unlike all the gas-fired central heating boilers I'm used to it has no control for the temperature of the hot water and seems to just try to boil the bloody stuff.
The shower is supposed to be thermostatic but is crap at it. If you're half-asleep in the morning and don't let it run first you get scalded followed by ice-cold water before it sorts itself out. Sometimes its the other way round or has a random delay of desired-temperature water to lull you into a false sense of security.
Good thing I'm moving soon. Every design decision seems to be the worst available one (carpet in a kitchen?).
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Every design decision seems to be the worst available one
I wasn't sure about this till
carpet in a kitchen?
Wow, that is impressively WTFy.
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Wow, that is impressively WTFy.
The house I grew up in had carpet in the bathrooms as well as the kitchen. The people who put that down must've loved carpet.
But there wasn't any in the living room, nor the bedrooms, so maybe not.
