WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
so they should know not to do stupid things.
Us ers do, these young whippersnappers that get hired now know everything so they don't listen to us!
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
"Office 98 had all the features people needed, so we constantly need to change things to make it look new."
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
"Office 98 had all the features people needed, so we constantly need to change things to make it look new."
Same thing happens to Google. They have two dozen highly paid graphic designers on salary. What happens when there's no new product to design? They get bored and redesign all the logos. Again.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Then they added the fucking "Look at me mom! I jump all over the place!" ribbon. What better way to waste vertical screen space and at the same time use ambiguous pictograms sorted in a uniform random distribution with different shapes and sizes so you absolutely can't get used to what's where.
You say this like the alternative to the Ribbon was any better.
But of course you're one of those "moved my cheese" type complainers who would say that. So.
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
one of those "moved my cheese" type complainers
There's a lot to be said for familiarity and muscle memory.
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@anonymous234 said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
"Office 98 had all the features people needed, so we constantly need to change things to make it look new."
Same thing happens to Google. They have two dozen highly paid graphic designers on salary. What happens when there's no new product to design? They get bored and redesign all the logos. Again.
And we have a thread discussing what happens when Mozilla's designers get bored.
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Then they added the fucking "Look at me mom! I jump all over the place!" ribbon.
I actually think the ribbon UI of the "current" Office looks and works pretty well. Granted, it's kind of flat, but the icons aren't completely monochromatic and indistinguishable, they're mostly expressive and I can find things easily.
What better way to waste vertical screen space and at the same time use ambiguous pictograms sorted in a uniform random distribution with different shapes and sizes so you absolutely can't get used to what's where.
I get the complaint that the odd mixture of large, small, and list etc. icons looks like someone threw dice, but it feels like a necessary compromise. And keyboard shortcuts still work, if you're into that.
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
But of course you're one of those "moved my cheese" type complainers who would say that. So.
You say that like it's not annoying when, Ribbon aside, they're constantly moving the cheese for no fucking reason. Like in Windows' seventy different System Settings dialogs.
New features in Word 2019: @mentions
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I was never proficient with Office, but before the damn ribbon I could find anything I wanted by myself.
Things were logically divided between menus and even if something was in stupid place, I could just read the labels.Then they introduced that fucking thing and my productivity with Office dropped to near zero. I can't remember where things are, I can't remember what all the cryptic icons mean and I can't find anything. Buttons are small, large, medium, have text on bottom, text on side, no text, they look like buttons but actually are checkboxes, combo lists, switches, subsections, etc. One huge mess.
So now when I want to do pretty much anything more advanced than change the font, I have to google to find where that function is. Yeah, I have to search online for button location on the Wonderful Ribbon, or I can't get my work done. Great experience, such progress.
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@MrL You do realize that there's a "I'm searching for..." text box?
I'm telling my pupils to use that when they can't instantly find a certain feature and it works rather well.
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@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I have to google to find where that function is
And yes ... last usage was searching where find/replace went. I still don't know because now I click the search thing and select 'replace' .
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@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@MrL You do realize that there's a "I'm searching for..." text box?
I'm telling my pupils to use that when they can't instantly find a certain feature and it works rather well.
Useless if you don't know how exactly the button is named. Which wouldn't be a problem if buttons had consistent labels - you could just scan UI for good candidates. But you never know what has labels and what hasn't. Online search will find your thing with approximate or even wrong name, plus it's not a popup list that disappears when you click anything.
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@Luhmann said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
now I click the search thing
So the toolbar of buttons and shit is now a single button.
$13.41 says they're going to enable the mic on it and let you speak a command...
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@Luhmann For me it shows to the right of the Styles selector on the "Home" ribbon tab:
My pet peeve is that little button on the bottom right corner of the Styles selector to open a sidebar or helper dialog. It's just so tiny and unintuitive what functionality is beneath it.
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@Tsaukpaetra said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
$13.41 says they're going to enable the mic on it and let you speak a command...
"Ok Google ..."
"Where's that fucking ..."
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@levicki when I think about it, it really does feel I cut Office way more slack than it deserves because I've never had to pay for it.
And to be clear, I'm not talking about piracy.
...
...just about piracy.
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@topspin said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
You say that like it's not annoying when, Ribbon aside, they're constantly moving the cheese for no fucking reason. Like in Windows' seventy different System Settings dialogs.
Nah that's just plain dumb.
I should've provided more context, but , etc.
The ribbon is a genuinely good redesign of the menus that's much more effective than the old design. Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
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@levicki I actually don't see the "horrible mess". If you cannot cope with change then you better get the hell out of software development.
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
The ribbon is a genuinely good redesign of the menus that's much more effective than the old design. Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Indeed. It exposes many functions directly instead of hiding them away in menus.
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Then it's a shit design, because there are no long term benefits for me. With the old design, when I looked for something, I browsed the menus - I read the labels and remembered where they were. Even if I didn't remember exactly where everything was, I remembered it generally. Over time finding things became easier and easier.
But not with Ribbon. I browse the buttons and I'm not learning anything, because I don't know what they do. I can't remember "hey, I saw it just yesterday somewhere there", because there is no connection between what I want to do and cryptic icons. I can't remember things by position either, because everything has different size, shape and behavior.
I learned the old Office by just using it, with Ribbon I'm just as lost as on the first day no matter how long I use it.
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@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
The ribbon is a genuinely good redesign of the menus that's much more effective than the old design. Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Indeed. It exposes many functions directly instead of hiding them away in menus.
Quick check, Word: there's 16 menus in the Home tab alone.
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@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Then it's a shit design, because there are no long term benefits for me. With the old design, when I looked for something, I browsed the menus - I read the labels and remembered where they were. Even if I didn't remember exactly where everything was, I remembered it generally. Over time finding things became easier and easier.
But not with Ribbon. I browse the buttons and I'm not learning anything, because I don't know what they do. I can't remember "hey, I saw it just yesterday somewhere there", because there is no connection between what I want to do and cryptic icons. I can't remember things by position either, because everything has different size, shape and behavior.
I learned the old Office by just using it, with Ribbon I'm just as lost as on the first day no matter how long I use it.
And my experience is exactly the opposite. I don't envy digging through multiple layers of menus to find that one option that's clearly displayed in a matter of clicks (or, even better, keystrokes) on the ribbon
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@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
The ribbon is a genuinely good redesign of the menus that's much more effective than the old design. Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Indeed. It exposes many functions directly instead of hiding them away in menus.
There are way too many features in Word to fit them all in the ribbon. Where did they hide the rest?
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Then it's a shit design, because there are no long term benefits for me. With the old design, when I looked for something, I browsed the menus - I read the labels and remembered where they were. Even if I didn't remember exactly where everything was, I remembered it generally. Over time finding things became easier and easier.
But not with Ribbon. I browse the buttons and I'm not learning anything, because I don't know what they do. I can't remember "hey, I saw it just yesterday somewhere there", because there is no connection between what I want to do and cryptic icons. I can't remember things by position either, because everything has different size, shape and behavior.
I learned the old Office by just using it, with Ribbon I'm just as lost as on the first day no matter how long I use it.
And my experience is exactly the opposite. I don't envy digging through multiple layers of menus to find that one option that's clearly displayed in a matter of clicks (or, even better, keystrokes) on the ribbon
That's the thing. Ribbon works great when it works. When it doesn't work (ie. the feature you're looking for isn't visible on any tab), then you're just screwed. Compare to classic menu, where you can get everything done eventually.
The best interface would be to have both the ribbon and a classic menu.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
The ribbon is a genuinely good redesign of the menus that's much more effective than the old design. Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Indeed. It exposes many functions directly instead of hiding them away in menus.
There are way too many features in Word to fit them all in the ribbon. Where did they hide the rest?
Eh, actually, pretty sure they're all there. Unless you pick some feature that nobody uses that's 16 submenus down from the top menu or something. They might be in a context menu or something, but yeah.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
then you're just screwed
Or you use the search box that came with the ribbon to find any feature. And find it about 20 times faster than the context menu too
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
The ribbon is a genuinely good redesign of the menus that's much more effective than the old design. Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Indeed. It exposes many functions directly instead of hiding them away in menus.
There are way too many features in Word to fit them all in the ribbon. Where did they hide the rest?
Eh, actually, pretty sure they're all there. Unless you pick some feature that nobody uses that's 16 submenus down from the top menu or something. They might be in a context menu or something, but yeah.
A feature that nobody uses that's 16 submenus down is sometimes a lifesaver.
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
then you're just screwed
Or you use the search box that came with the ribbon to find any feature. And find it about 20 times faster than the context menu too
As @MrL said - if you know how it's named, exactly.
Evil Idea: Google integration for the Word's search bar so it can fuzzy match the search phrase even to things that are completely unrelated to words you've written but is actually what you want. So I'd have to do less alt-tabbing.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
The ribbon is a genuinely good redesign of the menus that's much more effective than the old design. Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Indeed. It exposes many functions directly instead of hiding them away in menus.
There are way too many features in Word to fit them all in the ribbon. Where did they hide the rest?
Eh, actually, pretty sure they're all there. Unless you pick some feature that nobody uses that's 16 submenus down from the top menu or something. They might be in a context menu or something, but yeah.
A feature that nobody uses that's 16 submenus down is sometimes a lifesaver.
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
then you're just screwed
Or you use the search box that came with the ribbon to find any feature. And find it about 20 times faster than the context menu too
As @MrL said - if you know how it's named, exactly.
Evil Idea: Google integration for the Word's search bar so it can fuzzy match the search phrase even to things that are completely unrelated to words you've written but is actually what you want. So I'd have to do less alt-tabbing.
You joke, but I'm pretty sure that search bar is integrated with something. I've never had it not find what I need.
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@anonymous234 said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
They get bored and redesign all the logos. Again.
The disease is spreading
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@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@MrL You do realize that there's a "I'm searching for..." text box?
Every time someone tells me they are perfectly fine with the shitty, convoluted layout of Windows or Office because they can just search for what they want
Congratulations. You just reverted back to 1990 era MS-DOS and completely defeated the whole point of a GUI.
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people who can't figure out the Office ribbon
Do you often find yourself confused by self-checkouts or McDonalds touchscreen menus? What about tying shoes?
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@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@MrL You do realize that there's a "I'm searching for..." text box?
@Luhmann said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
last usage was searching where find/replace went. I still don't know because now I click the search thing and select 'replace' .
IOW, the ribbon is such a fuckin mess, ignore it and just use the search
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@hungrier said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
people who can't figure out the Office ribbon
Do you often find yourself confused by self-checkouts or McDonalds touchscreen menus?
McDonald's has regular multilevel menu.
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@TimeBandit said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
just use the
application searchinstead of google
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
multilevel menu
I hate it I just have to keep playing until I unlock the fries.
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@Gąska said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Where did they hide the rest?
In the search, obviously
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@hungrier said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
What about tying shoes?
Problem solved years ago
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@Zecc said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
"Ok Google ..."
"Where's that fucking ..."
"Next door."
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@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Granted, there's difficulty whenever the UI changes, but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
QFT. The problem, of course, is that a lot of UI redesign isn't sufficiently good to be worth the short-term pain. Also, changes that may be good for some users may be bad for others. A particular feature may be seldom used by the overall set of users, but very frequently used by a subset of the users. Moving that feature from an always-visible button to a menu (in order to declutter the interface and/or use that button for something more useful) might be a good change for the typical user, but a horrible breaking change for the few people who use it often.
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@Rhywden said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@levicki I actually don't see the "horrible mess". If you cannot cope with change then you better get the hell out of software development.
You are not the first person to suggest that.
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@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
I can't remember things by position either, because everything has different size, shape and behavior.
The biggest problem I see with that is that whether a feature is shown as a big button, a little button, or entirely hidden depends on how big your window is. Can't find the button for search/replace? Just make your window 3px wider.
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@hungrier said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
McDonalds touchscreen menus
I avoid those. It's usually early in the morning, I have to get somewhere extra early, I haven't had my coffee. I ain't got no patience to figure anything out at that point. (Last time I was in, I waited at the counter, finally someone came over and pointed at the machine. I said "I don't want to use that". 10 seconds later my order was in.)
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Can't find the button for search/replace?
Found!
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@HardwareGeek said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
Just make your window 3px wider.
Jeah the way the ribbon works when the screen size goes smaller is totally different from static toolbars. Toolbars just get cut off and show an .
The ribbon is 'smart'. It hides some options while shrinking others or pushing them into one control.
Again find replace but now with the screen 3px smaller
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@MrL said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
@sloosecannon said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
but the long-term benefits, if it's a good redesign, can be worth the short-term pain of change.
Then it's a shit design, because there are no long term benefits for me. With the old design, when I looked for something, I browsed the menus - I read the labels and remembered where they were. Even if I didn't remember exactly where everything was, I remembered it generally. Over time finding things became easier and easier.
But not with Ribbon. I browse the buttons and I'm not learning anything, because I don't know what they do. I can't remember "hey, I saw it just yesterday somewhere there", because there is no connection between what I want to do and cryptic icons. I can't remember things by position either, because everything has different size, shape and behavior.
I learned the old Office by just using it, with Ribbon I'm just as lost as on the first day no matter how long I use it.
Seriously. "Cryptic" icons.
Nothing "cryptic" here. Maybe these will be "cryptic"?
Nope. Maybe here?
Again. Nope. So, what exactly are those crypticisms?
And "cryptic" means: Totally unrelated to its meaning.
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@Rhywden It even works across languages. I don't know the German words for folded text or kitalicised text, but those font toolbar buttons are immediately obvious in their function
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@levicki said in WTF is happening with Windows 10? And nothing else:
There was some consistency when it comes to labeling (always to the right, always below, etc)
Large icons have the label below. Small ones beside. It's not rocket surgery
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@TimeBandit in 1968.
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@Carnage I wasn't even born yet
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@levicki Why do you think so?