Driving Anti-Patterns - Necro Edition
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Someone's whooshing, but I don't think it's @Luhmann.
It's pretty much failed pendantry, almost anti-pendantry. He's trying too hard.
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This morning's anti-pattern, observed twice on the way to work, is slamming on your brakes and slowing from highway speed down to 40 mph before switching over to the offramp lane which is nearly half a mile long before you actually have to exit.
In the Netherlands, standard practice is to enter the off-ramp at full highway speed, then brake afterwards. At a certain exit I often take, I'll typically come from the left lane, switch to middle ~200m before the off ramp, then once the off ramp starts cross between two trucks, onto the off ramp, then brake.
The same goes for on ramps: If you know what you're doing, you can hit 120 km/h on the on-ramp, even from stand-still, and do not need to wait for a large hole or for traffic in the right-hand lane to slow down for you.
This tends to get people in reverse when abroad. In many other countries (at least France, which is a popular holiday destination) off-ramps are much shorter, and not braking beforehand gets you in trouble on the trailing sharp turn.
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In the Netherlands, standard practice is to enter the off-ramp at full highway speed, then brake afterwards. At a certain exit I often take, I'll typically come from the left lane, switch to middle ~200m before the off ramp, then once the off ramp starts cross between two trucks, onto the off ramp, then brake.
Ah yes, we have that here too ... and it gives us situations like these ...
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In the Netherlands, standard practice is to enter the off-ramp at full highway speed, then brake afterwards. At a certain exit I often take, I'll typically come from the left lane, switch to middle ~200m before the off ramp, then once the off ramp starts cross between two trucks, onto the off ramp, then brake.
The same goes for on ramps: If you know what you're doing, you can hit 120 km/h on the on-ramp, even from stand-still, and do not need to wait for a large hole or for traffic in the right-hand lane to slow down for you.
This is what I was taught to do when learning to drive (minus the changing lanes between trucks bit), here in 'Murica. In actual practice, however, it seems like the majority of drivers are slow witted imbeciles who are afraid of:
- Waiting to brake in the off ramp (99% of off ramps are long enough, you morons!).
- Merging with high speed traffic (if you're moving at the same speed as the traffic you want to merge with, merging instantly becomes 1000 times simpler, asshats!).
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Ouch ...
Especially because that specific off ramp is fucking famous for being blocked by traffic. Some 10km before the exit the variable signage starts to indicate that there is a jam at that fucking exit. Some years ago it just said 'Traffic Jam' but now it even says 'Traffic Jam at Exit Aalter'. Flashing lights and all.
Moral: when I'm passing there at peak hours I have since long preferred the middle or left lanes above the right.
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Bad Idea: switching two lanes when you can't see clearly what's in the target lane because of the traffic you're sliding between.
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Merging with high speed traffic (if you're moving at the same speed as the traffic you want to merge with, merging instantly becomes 1000 times simpler, asshats!).
Which is the biggest reason that ramp lights are a horrible idea.
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Which is the biggest reason that ramp lights are a horrible idea.
Stuff can back up for other reasons too. Best to see where you're going before committing to go there…
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Which is the biggest reason that ramp lights are a horrible idea.
Meh. Most ramp lights I encounter give you plenty of time to get up to speed and make sure you won't side-swipe someone. The lights are there to spread out traffic coming onto the freeway, and I like them, when they are done correctly.
That said, there are some I absolutely hate. Mostly the ones that don't provide sufficient time to get up to speed and prepare for your merge, but there's one that I avoid not because of poor design, but rather poor placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4131932,-112.0124085,427m/data=!3m1!1e3
The N/S street is University as it transitions into 32nd St (or is it the other way around?). The problem ramp is the on-ramp for I-10 W. About 1/2 mile after the ramp, the right three lanes become exit only lanes for the I-17, so there are people getting on the freeway at this ramp who need to immediately cut over three lanes so they can stay on the I-10. Add to that the I-17 is often backed up at this point during afternoon rush hour, but the I-10 isn't. This obviously causes some issues as people try to escape the exit only lanes. When the ramp-lights are off, the ramp works pretty well, considering. When the ramp-lights are active, the ramp backs up so bad that traffic on south-bound University gets backed up for a 1/4 mile by people wanting to get on the freeway.
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Yeah, I see the lights pretty far down the ramp, and in spots where they cause backup onto the feeding roads, more often than not here. These lights could be useful, but they're not.
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That said, there are some I absolutely hate. Mostly the ones that don't provide sufficient time to get up to speed and prepare for your merge, but there's one that I avoid not because of poor design, but rather poor placement:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4131932,-112.0124085,427m/data=!3m1!1e3
The only sane way to fix that is to close the on- and off-ramp for I-10 W at that junction. There's another junction less than a mile further back which will do.
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The only sane way to fix that is to close the on- and off-ramp for I-10 W at that junction. There's another junction less than a mile further back which will do.
Yeah, Phoenix does ramps mostly every mile, with only a few exceptions.
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The N/S street is University as it transitions into 32nd St (or is it the other way around?). The problem ramp is the on-ramp for I-10 W. About 1/2 mile after the ramp, the right three lanes become exit only lanes for the I-17, so there are people getting on the freeway at this ramp who need to immediately cut over three lanes so they can stay on the I-10. Add to that the I-17 is often backed up at this point during afternoon rush hour, but the I-10 isn't. This obviously causes some issues as people try to escape the exit only lanes. When the ramp-lights are off, the ramp works pretty well, considering. When the ramp-lights are active, the ramp backs up so bad that traffic on south-bound University gets backed up for a 1/4 mile by people wanting to get on the freeway.
The only sane way to fix that is to close the on- and off-ramp for I-10 W at that junction. There's another junction less than a mile further back which will do.
A ramp meter isn't the right fix here -- it's better to braid the I-17 offramp with the ramp from University/32nd (which can become a forked offramp with one fork for I-10 W and another accessing I-17 if it's needed). You'd probably lengthen the I-17/I-10 gore in the process, as well.
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Phoenix does ramps mostly every mile, with only a few exceptions.
That looks like it would be an excellent spot for an exception. Or a more complex junction design.
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it's better to braid the I-17 offramp
But a lot more expensive. Getting traffic to join the freeway not so close to a major split is a cheaper measure, especially since you've got other junctions so close. It'll inconvenience users of the junction a bit, but will be far safer.
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This is what I was taught to do when learning to drive (minus the changing lanes between trucks bit), here in 'Murica. In actual practice...
To be fair, there are a lot of places with very short on-ramps, sometimes with bad visibility of the main highway (e.g. because you're coming uphill to meet it and can't see over the crest). In cases like these -- or even if you don't know that the on-ramp is good -- it can make sense to merge slower, because if you got up to highway speed and there isn't an opening for you, you're basically boned unless someone hits their brakes for you. You have a lot more play in terms of where and when you merge when you are at slower speeds, even if you will be entering the traffic stream at 55 instead of 65 or whatever. In my experience at least, that's okay because you'll be able to find a spot that you can merge into at 55 and still be able to accelerate before you are slowing traffic.Of course the ideal is to hit traffic speed on the ramp... but reality is very often not ideal.
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65 mph speed limit on this highway.
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To be fair, there are a lot of places with very short on-ramps, sometimes with bad visibility of the main highway
There are. They're dangerous, especially if they carry a lot of traffic on the side road (quiet side roads can encourage a “wait until safe to join” style more). Junction design should be reviewed from time to time, in case traffic levels have changed, so as to keep the junction sufficiently safe. The heavier the traffic, the more justifiable it is to spend on junction improvements.
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Where, pray tell, did you find this jewel? It looks suspiciously like the UK's infamous M50-B4221 junction...
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RE: merging at speed...
There's a state/regional thing involved, too... in parts of Pennsylvania there are tons of ramps (and lots of people) who STOP on the on-ramp.
Unfortunately, it actually makes sense, because so many ramps there have realistic speed limits of 15-25mph. When you drive there you have to remember that the guy in front of you on the ramp is going to slam on his brakes.
Also, there's a two-lane (each way) parkway in Connecticut out of NYC (the first parkway if I recall) where everybody drives super-fast on this windy, hilly road with tiny ramps - BUT - everybody also knows how the crazy thing works... lots of folks stay to the right, but then move left to open a gap for the poor soul coming up the ramp who takes the opening and merges as fast as they possibly can given the tightness of the ramp. After the junction everybody sorts themselves back out... worked really well when I drove it.
Down here we do it the other way round - people are afraid of the yahoos on the ramps, so stay in the middle lane(s), and crazy people do the speed limit+20 in the right lane and play chicken with folks getting on and off the highway. Great fun!
TLDR: Some people in Pennsylvania and Connecticut do it different.
(Because their states have repeating "n"s in their names)
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A ramp meter isn't the right fix here -- it's better to braid the I-17 offramp with the ramp from University/32nd (which can become a forked offramp with one fork for I-10 W and another accessing I-17 if it's needed). You'd probably lengthen the I-17/I-10 gore in the process, as well.
But that would just push the existing problem to the ramp that's a mile east. And that ramp comes from highway 143 and 40th St. That's a worse place to have the backup. You're correct that the ramp meter isn't helping, but shifting the I-10/I-17 split as you suggest would cause problems elsewhere.
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To be fair, there are a lot of places with very short on-ramps, sometimes with bad visibility of the main highway (e.g. because you're coming uphill to meet it and can't see over the crest).
That's mainly due to bad ramp design. Such ramps should be redesigned. In any case, I did say:
99% of off ramps are long enough
Really, I think that there are two problems which contribute to this issue:
- There are ramps still in existence which were designed when speed limits were 20-30 MPH slower than they are now. This ramps should have been redesigned when speed limits were increased. Especially the ramps in areas with high populations.
- Many people drive in the merging lane, even though they have no intention of using an exit for many miles. They just cruise along in that lane, making it more difficult for new traffic to merge in, even though there are two or more additional lanes they could be driving in. If you aren't planning to get off within the next 2 miles, stay out of the way of traffic which is trying to merge onto the freeway! (I make an exception for this complaint during rush hour.)
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Looks like there are dedicated lanes for new traffic there. Can't really complain about not having time to get up to speed.
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But that would just push the existing problem to the ramp that's a mile east. And that ramp comes from highway 143 and 40th St. That's a worse place to have the backup. You're correct that the ramp meter isn't helping, but shifting the I-10/I-17 split as you suggest would cause problems elsewhere.
You don't need to lengthen the gore by nearly as much as you're thinking of, or are the backups really long enough that pushing them a quarter-mile (at most) back would cause them to interfere with an entrance ramp a full mile away? (The only reason I call for the move, by the way, is to avoid making the entrance ramp from University/32nd quite extraordinarily long.)
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There is a location on the Ring Amsterdam, where there is an exit (1 lane off-ramp going into 2-lane exit) followed by an corresponding 2-lane on-ramp quickly going into 1 lane, that then exits. This causes chaos as people have to cross heavy traffic when getting to that exit.
They revised that by adding a slip road that bypasses the big intersection - When going southbound on the A10, next to the exit road onto the A1 there is a second off-ramp, which goes to a slip-road letting you get back on the A10 on the right-hand side of the entering traffic from the A1, and take the exit.
Map reference https://www.google.nl/maps/place/Knooppunt+Watergraafsmeer/@52.3500551,4.9640498,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0000000000000000:0x23db78a04b7cfa43, however the aireal photos are not updated yet with the new situation, and it's hard to see what's going on in map mode.
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You don't need to lengthen the gore by nearly as much as you're thinking of, or are the backups really long enough that pushing them a quarter-mile (at most) back would cause them to interfere with an entrance ramp a full mile away? (The only reason I call for the move, by the way, is to avoid making the entrance ramp from University/32nd quite extraordinarily long.)
Part of the problem is that people are rushing to merge across three lanes of traffic once they get on at the ramp at University/32nd so they can stay on the I-10. There is some of that happening a mile earlier at the 40th St exit, but they aren't rushing it quite so much, because they have an extra mile. If you push the I-10/I-17 split back, it will increase the actual and perceived pressure on people who want to stay on the I-10 that are getting on at the 40th St ramp.
Edit: After reading @PleegWat's post, I think the best solution is to keep the existing ramp for the I-17 traffic, and add a slip road for the I-10 traffic. Doesn't add any pressure to traffic getting on at 40th St, and it would ease things for traffic at the University/32nd St ramp.
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Part of the problem is that people are rushing to merge across three lanes of traffic once they get on at the ramp at University/32nd so they can stay on the I-10. There is some of that happening a mile earlier at the 40th St exit, but they aren't rushing it quite so much, because they have an extra mile. If you push the I-10/I-17 split back, it will increase the actual and perceived pressure on people who want to stay on the I-10 that are getting on at the 40th St ramp.
I agree with you that there's a weave zone there -- how long is it, really, though?
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I agree with you that there's a weave zone there -- how long is it, really, though?
After driving it again yesterday during ideal conditions, I think I misremembered the 1/4 mile. It's a little more than 1/2 mile. However, during rush hour, the three right lanes are moving at ~15 MPH and the three left lanes (plus the HOV lane) are usually moving at ~50 MPH. Transitioning from the exit only lanes to the lanes that remain with the I-10 takes nerves of steel and a bit of luck.
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After reading @PleegWat's post, I think the best solution is to keep the existing ramp for the I-17 traffic, and add a slip road for the I-10 traffic. Doesn't add any pressure to traffic getting on at 40th St, and it would ease things for traffic at the University/32nd St ramp.
Which is what I suggested, actually -- that's what "braiding ramps" means. The gore move was just a practicality point -- the slip road you'd need to put in for the I-10 traffic would be quite long unless you wanted to wedge a left entrance in...
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You find yourself in the inmost lane of a divided highway behind someone who falsely believes they have eternity ahead of them and as a result is in no hurry to pass the cars in the next lane over. As you may expect, there is also a long line of cars behind you who would also like to pass some time in the next millennium.
The driver in front of you finally gets off the phone, completes the pass and moves over into the next lane. Now is your big chance! But wait, don't speed up! You are now King of the Passing Lane and the line of cars must now wait for you. Enjoy your new status.
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Which is what I suggested, actually -- that's what "braiding ramps" means. The gore move was just a practicality point -- the slip road you'd need to put in for the I-10 traffic would be quite long unless you wanted to wedge a left entrance in...
Left entrance won't work with the HOV ramp. And the phoenix-metro area has (a few) longer slip roads that I am aware of. In some cases they have the secondary function of providing freeway access to streets that wouldn't have access any other way.
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Bad Idea: switching two lanes when you can't see clearly what's in the target lane because of the traffic you're sliding between.
Worse idea: using up the emergency stopping lane to make an offramp. WTF, freeway designer?
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Left entrance won't work with the HOV ramp. And the phoenix-metro area has (a few) longer slip roads that I am aware of. In some cases they have the secondary function of providing freeway access to streets that wouldn't have access any other way.
Yeah, you might as well build a super-long slip road to hook University/32nd up to westbound I-10 then...
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Yeah, you might as well build a super-long slip road to hook University/32nd up to westbound I-10 then...
It'd be shorter than the one they just built out around the I-303 interchange for the surface streets out there.
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Yeah, you might as well build a super-long slip road to hook University/32nd up to westbound I-10 then...
Man, where's @blakeyrat when you need him to come in and tell you guys how boring you're being?
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Man, where's @blakeyrat when you need him to come in and tell you guys how boring you're being?
The best solution would be to replace all of our surface vehicle with flying cars. Then we'd only need roads for landing and getting to our final destinations. We could reduce the bulk of our freeways to something akin to the old highway system, only to be used in emergency situations.
That got enough flair for ya?
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This morning's driving anti-pattern once I finally got my truck to start:
Semi-major road, 2 lanes each direction, speed limit of 45 mph. A garbage truck is in the rightmost lane going 30 mph. And an SUV is in the left lane, attempting to pass the garbage truck, but only going 31 mph.
Side note: Yay we have
now!!
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You forgot to mention that there shouldn't be any special training needed to use the flying cars. The car should gently guide you through whatever you may need to learn.
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Where, pray tell, did you find this jewel? It looks suspiciously like the UK's infamous M50-B4221 junction...
It's US-146 in Rhode Island.
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Looks like there are dedicated lanes for new traffic there. Can't really complain about not having time to get up to speed.
They end quickly, I cropped it too closely.
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Worse idea: using up the emergency stopping lane to make an offramp. WTF, freeway designer?
Or go with I-66's thing: The emergency stopping lane is only for emergency stopping some of the time; most of the time, it's for regular traffic!@abarker said:The best solution would be to replace all of our surface vehicle with flying cars. Then we'd only need roads for landing and getting to our final destinations. We could reduce the bulk of our freeways to something akin to the old highway system, only to be used in emergency situations.
I've wanted that since I was a child, and wish I had the money and location for an ICON A5...
